Thank you gentlemen for having me as a guest in your forum. I was hoping you could help me understand the process an FTM man goes through when he begins as lesbian-identified, and then transitions to manhood. It seems like some FTM individuals continue to belong to the lesbian community they came from? I was wondering how they square that with male gender identity.

I'm asking this for a practical reason: I moderate a lesbian community which is for women only. As a rule, I turn down all men who apply to join. However, over the time I've been moderator, two individuals who joined the community as women have come out as trans. Both of them have joined the transgender community I also moderate, in addition to the lesbian one. (Both of them are my good friends too.) One of them is injecting T, has grown a beard, has changed his name and ID, and has transitioned to full time manhood. The other is less firmly committed to being male, but is exploring the masculine spectrum. So far, I have not expelled them from the lesbian community or even questioned what they're still doing there. I want to handle this with delicacy, understanding, and total respect for everyone concerned. But it does raise questions for me.

Earlier, another individual applied to join, saying he had started out as lesbian, but was now FTM. I approved his application, although with doubts and misgivings in my heart. I chose to give him the benefit of the doubt, because I'm not sure where the line is drawn in lesbian communities. And because I've observed how often trans men continue to belong to the lesbian communities they emerged from, even after transition. I didn't feel it was for me to lay down the law in such a sensitive area. I can't even tell if a line is drawn at all.

That's what I'm asking your help with, those of you who started out identified as lesbians. How does this work?

My co-moderator is a cisgender lesbian, and when I asked her opinion about trans people belonging to our women-only community, she answered: Trans women, yes. Trans men, no.

For me, logic says if you identify as a man, then a women-only community is not for you. But in real-life praxis, I often see trans men continuing to belong to lesbian communities. And often the lesbians themselves, as far as I can tell, have no objection (my co-moderator excepted). So I hesitate to trump the de facto consensual arrangements of real life with mere logic. I want to resolve this question by approaching it delicately and respectfully. I want to understand in order to know how best to moderate my women-only lesbian community. It's a dilemma for me, and I was hoping you could help me sort this out. Thanks!

First off, I think it's inappropriate for someone who identifies as male to continue to inhabit lesbian space.  I suppose there may be a difference in how said 'FTM' identifies-  if he is identifying as genderqueer or as TS.

Now that's not to say there aren't woman-only or lesbian-only spaces who allow people to participate for as long as the participant feels they have a place in their community, but those FTM-id'd  people are truly only as lesbian-identified as the community of those lesbian/woman-only spaces allow them to be. 

Quote from: Mister on June 06, 2009, 02:03:43 AMFirst off, I think it's inappropriate for someone who identifies as male to continue to inhabit lesbian space.

I think so too-- I've been wondering if I'm missing something here, or what.

Quote from: Hypatia on June 06, 2009, 02:17:51 AM
I think so too-- I've been wondering if I'm missing something here, or what.

It's a hard line to draw.  Many FTMs feel a connection to the lesbian community, have lesbian-identified partners or are not truly ready to leave their lesbianism behind.  I think that as long as he's being respectful and not throwing his maleness around, I'd probably lean toward inclusion. 

Quote from: Mister on June 06, 2009, 02:20:58 AM
It's a hard line to draw.  Many FTMs feel a connection to the lesbian community, have lesbian-identified partners or are not truly ready to leave their lesbianism behind.  I think that as long as he's being respectful and not throwing his maleness around, I'd probably lean toward inclusion.

That's pretty much where I've wound up with this. Clear as mud, but then real life is often just that murky.

I agree with Mister. I also think it depends on identification. Some butches do take T and dress like men yet do not identify as such. To me, anything short of 'man' can still be lesbian. There's a big difference between being a man and being genderqueer/transmasculine.

Not from a lesbian background.

Perhaps its me, and I'm sure it is, but for a bunch of people who whine and snivel about being excluded in other places you sure seem quick to toss it up in your own space.  If exclusion is good, how come its not good all the time?  Or is it only good when you do it, but only bad when its done to you?

Can you give me an example of somewhere else I'm excluded that I'd actually want to be?  I have no interest in being in lesbian space, but there are some transwhatever identified female assigned people who sure do love being lumped in with sapphic women of all sorts.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a woman and I belong in women's spaces, and I avoid men's spaces. There is such a thing as women's spaces and men's spaces, like it or not. Now do not make this about me, this is a question for FTM, and if you have nothing to contribute on the subject, do not hijack it. Stay on topic.

Last year I was at Michigan Womyn's Music Festival and Camp Trans.
Camp Trans had some FTM's who had previously frequented Mich Fest but post-transition refrained out of respect.
I'm not sure that there were any FTM's at Mich Fest, but people said that there were.

Note: Support for trans-women at Mich Fest on the ground was good despite the still-existing policy of exclusion.
It was left to mostly old, bitter 2nd wave feminists to support the policy.

Just tossing a couple of argument points for consideration.

If someone has derives great support and comfort from a particular community for a long while and/or contributed to that community, to then be excluded on the grounds of personal development or understanding or fulfillment or however else it could be expressed, would seem to me to be a rather harsh reward.

Also, since the lines are often blurry, who is to say at what point an apparent lesbian who is discovering his masculinity should be declared not a fitting person to be part of a lesbian community, if he continues to act in a way which does not disturb other members?

I realise that I am neither a lesbian nor TG and so have no right to be in this community anyway, and am only here through the good graces of other members, but I thought I'd put forth my feelings. Also, my own SO only finds refuge at present within the gay & lesbian community, and if he were ever to take big strides on his road to his true self, I would like to think he could still retain the support of his current support group.

FWIW 

Quote from: Mister on June 06, 2009, 02:20:58 AM
It's a hard line to draw.  Many FTMs feel a connection to the lesbian community, have lesbian-identified partners or are not truly ready to leave their lesbianism behind.  I think that as long as he's being respectful and not throwing his maleness around, I'd probably lean toward inclusion.

I agree with Mister on both of his points. I think it should be a self-exclusion as well. I wouldn't feel comfortable in woman-only space at all and wouldn't attend, but depending on where he is in transition, he may not be at that stage.

Dennis

The Women's Therapy Center in Philly excludes men who are transitioning after they have surgery and become legally males.

For women only and trans-women (or former trans-women, if you like) are included in the clientele.

Mister's points about trans-men in the lesbian community are spot-on. Much moreso they have connections, relationships of all kinds within the lesbian community than do MTF-spectrums in the gay community. My guess would be that that is due to a more easily accessed lesbian community that is perceived as first a place to meet and be with those they are inclined to be with while more MTF-spectrum folk have more of a socially-conditioned aversion to "gay."

Quote from: Nero on June 06, 2009, 02:38:13 AM
There's a big difference between being a man and being genderqueer/transmasculine.

i'd like to hear your thoughts on this, cuz it's something i've been trying to figure out myself

Quote from: Renate on June 06, 2009, 05:58:45 AM
Last year I was at Michigan Womyn's Music Festival and Camp Trans.
Camp Trans had some FTM's who had previously frequented Mich Fest but post-transition refrained out of respect.
I'm not sure that there were any FTM's at Mich Fest, but people said that there were.

Note: Support for trans-women at Mich Fest on the ground was good despite the still-existing policy of exclusion.
It was left to mostly old, bitter 2nd wave feminists to support the policy.

FTMs aren't allowed at MichFest unless they're pre or no transition and keep their mouths shut.

I would not feel comfortable in a lesbian only space because I am not a lesbian. As I am not a women I would also not attend or be in women only spaces. I am also not genderqueer or tansmaculine I am just a guy who used to be in the lesbian community.
Myles

I would feel comfortable in a lesbian space, but not lesbian-only. Mostly due to me never having been hugely in the lesbian community in the first place. Me and a couple other transguys help run a lesbian social night once a month, I do the posters XD