would make things at least a little bit easier on me.  Y'know get the big, bad gender confusion thing tossed aside and be able to trust people again and make friends.

So why are my relationships like ten times more complicated?

As a guy things were straight forward.  Similar likes and could handle being in the same room together, you hung out.  Girlfriends would come and go, have a great time.  yadda, yadda, yadda.

Transitioned.  Make more friends than I had before but suddenly there's drama.  Just pick a flavor of drama, it does not matter.  I just want to relax and kick back  with friends every so often.

Anyone else experience about the same?  Friend told me it is because I am pretty (which I argue against but that is her opinion).  Others say because I am a bit intimidating (oh noes!  someone with confidence!) and it sets others on edge.  Add that I am shy to that and I guess I come off a bit standoffish.  Are there courses out there to help those who were always on the outside deal with those who have actually learned social skills while growing up?  A crash course on small talk maybe?

Soon it looks like I will have to give the "it's not me but you" speech.

Help?  Anyone else having or had the same issues?

There are certain things that come with transitioning, that is you can depend on people to "react", those reactions with be both good, bad and indifferent.

There are things you gain when you transition, such as being more at peace with yourself, finally being happy.

But, you have to expect problems too, any real friend will try to accept the change, those who don't accept are not worth the trouble.

Sarah L.

Quote from: LostInTime on August 10, 2006, 01:57:39 PM
because I am a bit intimidating (oh noes!  someone with confidence!) and it sets others on edge.  Add that I am shy to that and I guess I come off a bit standoffish.  Are there courses out there to help those who were always on the outside deal with those who have actually learned social skills while growing up?  A crash course on small talk maybe?

Soon it looks like I will have to give the "it's not me but you" speech.

Help?  Anyone else having or had the same issues?

ya!  heard that one before but I learned along time ago friends are far and few in between Hey if you want we can hang out and be Standoffish together!!!

Seriously when you figure it out let me know!

Hi LIT,

Interesting question and points you have raised in your original post.

I have many, many more friends that I ever did pre-transition as found it difficult to talk to guys. I also found men's talk limited to a small number of topics and it had very little depth.

When I transitioned I struggled to get into the girls conversations and I was told exactly some of the things you where (to standoffish, to confident)..... behaving to much like a guy at times (I asked what they meant by this.. Butting in, offering solutions etc).

I went and read a few books on the differences in communication bewteen men and women (I will have to dig out the references), but it really opened my eyes as to how different men / women are in communication (speech being a small part of that) and how socially it is totally different.

This was a valuable lesson. It enabled me to change my non-verbal communication considerably, how I listened to them, empathised with them and the girls responded much better (and told me so). re-enforcing what they wanted, bonding by communicating, empathizing.......listening.

Small talk is important, never under estimate the importance of this, last night I went to the movies and spent nearly 1/2 hour discussing my friends new blouse and handbag (yep the guys thought we where nuts!)

I have some great converstaions with friends,we can talk for hours about anything, decide nothing and not come up with any solutions..... that is not the aim.

You are right about gender conditioning, lacking the emotional upbringing that comes with being a young girl is difficult. It took me a while to find that emotional side and act differently.

Before you do the "it's not me but you speech" just think if any of the above applies to you...

Buffy

Even with acceptance, inclusion can take some time. When I transitioned on the job Cindy told me that she would probably always think of the old me. Well it hurt (a lot) as we were close friends even before she knew. About a year and a half later Cindy told me that she never thinks of me as anything but another woman. She could see that I was visibly moved by her turnaround and apparently remembered what she has said earlier. She asked it it had hurt me, and I said yes, but that I was also glad that she was being honest then and now. We are no longer just close, but best friends. Also I'm glad that I put away the earlier hurt and didn't spurn her friendship, which is to say that you should try to reserve the "it's not me but you speech" for those that are truely not worthy of your friendship.

To relate an experience with another co-worker that I had known for about 20 years, Mary told me one day probably a couple years after full time, "I can tell that this is the real you." Supprised I asked her why, and did I act more female. "No" she said (and here I have to paraphrase), it's not that you act feminine, although I suppose you do as well as most of us. I've known you for many years, and you have always been a nice person that seemed fairly happy, but a bit reserved and withdrawn. Now you are always cheerful and fun to be around. You just seem so positive about yourself and full of life. If anything seems phoney it was the withdrawn and often quiet person you used to be.

I think the lesson there is to just be yourself while trying to project a positive happy image. I've known some TS (not that I think this of you or anyone else here) that start transition with an attitude like "This is who I am and you must accept me as this gender." Well no they don't have to. They owe you acceptance as another person, but they don't own you acceptance to the extent of inclusion into their circle. That you have to earn. You earn it by being the person you claim to be, not by claiming to be such, then demanding respect, while having the proverbial chip on one's shoulder. Respect and inclusion will come from most of your old friends when—like Mary—they realise that this is the real you.

It usually causes my eyes to roll when someone tells me that they don't care what anyone thinks of them in regards to their transition. That may be true as well as the right attitude for those that are not accepting of us at all, but not a good way to win inclusion within any new circles.

Sandi

When you leave one life to live another a lot of things change. Unfortunately, the society we live in has no room for anyone who is transgender. So we adapt to their rules. That means doing things that may not be natural to us, fit our personalities or satisfy our goals.  That sometimes means going farther than we where we really are comfortable just so we can fit into society.

I probably should have been a bit more specific.  LOL

People I have as friends now totally accept me and cannot imagine the old guy me.  I do not even share my old name with them.  He's gone.  I do not have any male mannerisms nor speech patterns.  Barely had them to begin with thus why I probably came across as gay to quite a few people even though I did not have stereotypical gay mannerisms either.

It is just that my interactions as a woman are far more complex.  There is quite a bit more expected of me for one.  Although I do not suffer from a lot of male energy, just the fact that I am a confident woman is enough to chase people away.  As a guy it was expected.  I expected to be intimidating as a guy considering the fact that I used to bodybuild and wore some kick butt clothing like my full leather duster.  Spiky hair, Gargoyle sunglasses, and near 6 feet tall.  I have had entire restaurants go quiet when I have walked in the door.

As a woman I still have a lot of confidence but it is a lot more self contained.  Yet you can see it in how I move, how I enter a room, and exit as well.  I know that I belong there and act accordingly.  I try not to avert my eyes downward constantly.  I will try to keep a smile on my face.  I come across as intimidating because of that confidence.  People expect women to be a bit more docile I think.

My interactions in the leather community are different but I have the same impact there.  Even when I am somewhere as a submissive, eyes averted, etc I have been told that I am still quite intimidating.  My looks are usually mentioned.  I get that as I know when I was trying to do the guy thing, a confident woman was a turn on but it also made it more difficult for me to approach her.  Add to that the fact that I have some kick ass clothing (heavy duty leather corset, knee high leather boots, crops, collar, etc LOL) and I can see why some would shy away.

The fact that I am shy comes across as standoffish because I think they expect a woman with such confidence to be more at ease and in more control of conversations.  Therefore, if she is not taking the time to speak to someone then she must be stuckup.

I get why people may not want to approach me.  I stated it above.  It has very little to do with the TS issue and a lot to do with new expectations in my new role.  What I need to know is how does one break the ice and appear to be a bit more open to others around her?  I try doing the small talk but unless I already know the person, it fizzles.  I do better in large groups where others can pick up the slack or introduce other topics.  What can I do to work at being known as a fun one to be around?

I do pay attention to my overall body language.  I do not close myself off by crossing my arms or legs all of the time.  ((Commission sales for years and years plus the martial arts, I know the usual cues and avoid them unless I really do not want to be bothered))

I am trying to learn not to conform but in order to meet those I think are good people and have them become a part of my life and I, theirs.

QuoteI try doing the small talk but unless I already know the person, it fizzles.

Smile.

Listen to what they are saying, when you are listening, lean in, it shows trust and attentiveness, with that in mind, respect other's personal space. 

While you are listening, nod your head in encouragement, make sure they are the center of your attention.  Resist temptations to look at your watch (even if they are dull) or look around the room at other things. People who are talking generally look to their listeners for visual cues, what cues are you sending back to them?

I'm not saying to stare them down, but make sure they are the focus of your attention. Let them know that you are interested in what they have to say, and join in with their conversation non-competitively.

If I were to guess, I would say that based on your post, your trying to lead the conversation, which is fine, but, you have to follow it up. 

Conversation is like a tennis game... serve... volley... volley... volley... etc.
Except the goal is not to 'win' the goal is to get them to volley back.

Always give them the option to volley back.

If I say, "Hey LIT! How are you doing?"
and you respond with, "Fine."

I don't have the option to volley back. If you say "Fine, and you?" That gives me the option to volley back. Then I can answer in such a way as to invite conversation back from you.

The best way to give them the option to volley back is to ask a question in return.

A good way to open a conversation is with a compliment.  That can lead to all kinds of interesting conversations. If someone compliments you, turn it into a conversation.

"Hey Jess, I love the shirt"

I can respond with:
1. "Thanks, I just got it last week at McCrae's, have you been there recently? They have got some fantastic stuff!"
OR
2. "Thanks, I just got last week"

One is MUCH more conversational and the other is factual.

Smile.

Remember little facts about people, even if they seem insignificant.  Bring them up later, it's like a bookmark for a future conversation.  Remembering those little facts about people shows them that you genuinely care about them and the things they are going through.

When having a conversation, some people tense up involentarily, are you doing that?  Always appear relaxed, even if you might not feel it.  Generally people can pick up very quickly if someone is tense, and generally, if they are tense, people will project that back on to themselves thinking that the reason you are tense is them.  That generally kills a conversation.  Try and appear relaxed and friendly.  Smile.

Remember when I said serve... volley... volley... volley... well, that can't go on forever. 
Have a backup topic automatically planned before you even engage in the first conversation.  That's the flow. If you engaged the first conversation, and it drops, give them the chance to pickup another, but if they don't (before the uncomfortable 3 second pause) use your backup and see where that leads, that's where remembering all those little facts about the details in people's lives helps.

If all of that doesn't work, that generally means they really aren't interested in talking at the moment.

Mentally, follow your typical reactions in a conversation, think about everything you do, and imagine that someone you are talking to does those same things, what messages would that send.  Non verbal communication is something like 70% of all the communicating we do.

I don't know if that's what you were asking entirely, but I hope it helps some.

Jessica

I certainly agree with Jessica's great advice, and while she quite rightly advises not to stare the other person down, maintaining eye contact with the person you are talking to and when you are listening shows that you are interested even if you aren't.

Steph

Right.  Women are supposed to be the ones responsible with communicating with another person.  Eye contact is essential.  Also gestures (face, head or hands) also help show that your listening.  Just some tips I learned in speech therapy.

Melissa

Thanks Jessica.    Will try to plan out a follow up topic, just in case.

I realise the importance of eye contact but in certain segments of my social circle and depending on my role, that may not be possible unless I want to either offend someone or end up punished later on.  However, I will keep all in mind and try to apply some of that to my next outing which is tomorrow.  It is a relaxed atmosphere so I will not have to worry overmuch on proper protocals.  Smiling I can do no matter what. 

I do appreciate what others have shared.  You never know when that one odd comment may make everything else click. 

Jessica,

Great advice!  THank you very much for sharing.  How did you pick up on those clues?

Chaunte

Quote from: LostInTime on August 11, 2006, 10:01:48 AM

Add to that the fact that I have some kick ass clothing (heavy duty leather corset, knee high leather boots, crops, collar, etc LOL) and I can see why some would shy away.

Even on dress down Friday, LIT, I just can't imagine that in the office.  <grins>

I wonder how things would work out for you in a more mainstream venue in regular casual clothes?

Leather.  Hmmmm.  Our gay son is into leather and bears.  Oh, my.

Plain Vanilla Granny Robyn

Quote from: reikirobyn on August 11, 2006, 09:01:37 PM
  Our gay son is into leather and bears.  Oh, my.

Did you mean leather & bears or mean Leather Bears?

Just by coincidence we are winding down from 7 days of our Oregon Leather Pride week.

I am just to old to be having this much fun.

Leigh

QuoteGreat advice!  THank you very much for sharing.  How did you pick up on those clues?

I've known specifically what was wrong with me ever since I was 14. Before then it was just certain knowledge that something was really wrong.  At 14, I knew EXACTLY what it was.
I analyzed everything from the way I move, to the way I speak, to the things I say, to the colors I dress in and what I wear.  I also watch the way others move, speak, the things they say, and the way they phrase things.

To know how to fit in (and stop being teased) I had to reevaluate everything I was doing.

I intentionally do the opposite to hide. Up until the time I was 14, I was always the peacekeeper in the house, I'd try and encourage talking out things. Once I learned exactly what it was that was wrong, that all changed.  I tried to be much more logical, I refused to show any emotion, I refused to cry, the list goes on.  I tried to do everything that the men I watched did, and absolutely nothing the women did, no trace of it.  I watched and learned every move people made.

In short, I've given everything people do an incredible amount of thought.

I was damned determined to be a guy.

This past weekend, I was at the bank and the teller and I were having a conversation.  I decided to employ Jessica's "volley ball" technique and the conversation went on much longer than it normally does for me.  She was talking about how she had gained weight and some other personal stuff (not something you tell a guy), so I knew how she was seeing me.  That's one of those things that I like about being a woman; being able to share personal stuff with a complete stranger, but talking to them like you're sisters.

Melissa

You have heard the saying?

" Women can walk into the restroom, complete strangers and come out knowing each others life stories and best friends"

On the other hand, Men just pee and get out as quick as they can.

Buffy

Things went well for me Saturday night.    Most of the people I already knew so it was a bit more relaxed than I thought it would be originally.  And any night you finish up by playing with ferrets is a good night. 

As far as more mainstream areas... I do normally wear what most would call everyday clothing.  The leather is for certain social circles and clubbing.  And in some of the leather circles I would not wear any leather at all, just slacks and a nice top.

Anyway, the problem with communicating impacts both arenas as the lifestyle is a part of who I am.  I know how to read people.  I know what to give to people as far as their expectations.  My problem has been 1) actually caring about others around me and 2) making myself seem more available.  I tried to give as many visual cues that I am pretty well open and welcoming but obviously something was messing up the translation.  That leaves actually having to initiate conversations to let others know that I don't bite (well not until negotiated anyway).

My goal is to foster some strong friendships.  This is a huge departure from what I used to be as I have never cared much for the rest of the population.  I was always on the outside so I kept most of my interactions to manipulating others for my own amusement.  At one job my manager was smart enough to know what I was doing (setting up human emotional dominoes) and also smart enough to know that he could not stop me.  My actions once caused someone to almost have a complete nervous breakdown.  She deserved what happened but today I would not have done the same.  That is not to say that I did not have friends as I did have a few.  I would routinely go about a year or so without seeing them and it never bothered me.

Now I want to be social.  I want to have others around.  I want to be able to drop my defenses and let some others in enough so that I can really bond.  Yes, I realise a lot of "I"s in there.  This is a selfish action on my part as I do not want to be alone any longer.  I am tired of the games and sitting home alone when I know there is more to do out there and that it can be very rewarding.

LIT, do you allow yourself to be vulnerable?  Do you let others know your weaknesses?  Just a couple thoughts that may help.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on August 14, 2006, 11:30:03 AM

This past weekend, I was at the bank and the teller and I were having a conversation.  I decided to employ Jessica's "volley ball" technique and the conversation went on much longer than it normally does for me.

Since my epiphany, I just relate to GGs as girls relate to girls.  It's amazing!  Conversations go on a long time without going anywhere in particular.  But, that's the point.  The topic is only important as far as it keeps the relating going.  One girl who works in a different unit calls when she needs a bit of help (we do similar jobs, so we trade favours.)  Her request for help wanders over into commiserating about heartless, bosses who don't understand the difficulty of the job, through getting over an injury that resulted in DVT when she tripped getting off a carnival ride then over to carnival rides in general (the California State Fair is coming up,) then on to heavy metal bands by way of the act line-up at said fair...  The next thing you know, we've been chatting for 30 minutes.    And remember -- I'm still not out at work yet, although I'm working on my voice right before everyone's very ears!!

It's satisfying to be/become just one of the girls 

Karen