QuoteBut a little over a week before, in the wee hours of June 19, transgender woman Leslie Mora was walking home from a nightclub in Queens when she was attacked by two men with a belt who screamed the word "->-bleeped-<-got" at her in Spanish. According to the Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund, the attackers "stopped only when a passing motorist threatened to call the police." The alleged suspects, Trinidad Tapia and Gilberto Ortiz, were arrested shortly after fleeing the scene. Except while the Queens County District Attorney charged the men with "assault with intent to cause physical injury with a weapon," it's refusing to investigate the attack as a hate crime. Under New York State Law, attacks qualify as hate crimes if they are based on actual or perceived sexual orientation.

The alleged suspects, Trinidad Tapia and Gilberto Ortiz

But of course, enforcing immigration laws would be too much on the poor dears wouldn't it?

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 10:56:39 PM
The alleged suspects, Trinidad Tapia and Gilberto Ortiz

But of course, enforcing immigration laws would be too much on the poor dears wouldn't it?

Looks as if someone tried to enforce something on the fellow in the piccie.

If there is no law (P.S. this is the lesson of the last administration) then there is not law to bind them.

One thing I find a bit disturbing is how you never read stories about transgender hate-based violence where either the victim fights back or others successfully come to their aid. Such stories would certainly be more empowering than the continuous victim stories. Maybe the news just doesn't cover this stuff or maybe trans people who are getting attacked are not properly defending themselves and those around them don't really care. Either way it is a bit disturbing. While I think hate crimes enforcement is important, I'd like the culture to stop seeing us as helpless victims. I certainly hope that I won't have to be the first but should two crazed men probably high on drugs try to beat me to death with a belt, hate crimes enforcement would not be necessary. Instead, the two perps will be dealt with in a tax-free cost-effecient manner receiving permenant education and permenant rehabilitation with the use of my 2nd amendment rights. Moral of the story: you cannot always depend on the government for your safety nor can you depend on them to deliver proper justice. It is more empowering and more logical for TG people to take care of their own safety when out and about rather than endlessly pleading for someone else to "stop the violence."

Instead, the two perps will be dealt with in a tax-free cost-effecient manner receiving permenant education and permenant rehabilitation with the use of my 2nd amendment rights.[/i



I like that response.

Keep in mind the guy who was beaten up, the one in the photo. Was beaten by a group of men. The transwoman was attacked by two hispanic guys. The use of the word "->-bleeped-<-got" could merely have been an intimidation tactic that they used against all their victims.

One of my main arguements against hate-crime laws are the subjective nature of the laws.

If a white guy calls a black guy a ni@@ger in the heat of an arguement, hate crime statues are considered.

If a black man calls a white woman "something" whitebi#ch after a fender bender, potential hate crime.

A couple of goons rob a GLBT person and in the process say ->-bleeped-<-got, possible hate crime.

The list can go on and on.

I kind of find it 'disturbing' that you would even begin to have a clue as to what I've read.  But, for the sake of argument. I have seen three (3) people killed while I watched.  I saw no one come to their aid - in two cases it would have been too late at any rate - or help them.  Death is very private, no matter how many people watch.

Yeah, I've read books with heroes.  I've even seen heroes - those MEN who so many here despise - come to the aid of defenseless persons.  That ain't pretty either, even if it is just.

Sometimes a victim is just that.  Wrong night, wrong fight, wrong ->-bleeped-<-ing part of town.  That's all it takes. (Sorry about the F word, but the other friggin stuff does not work well with true death).

Instead, the two perps will be dealt with in a tax-free cost-effecient manner receiving permenant education and permenant rehabilitation with the use of my 2nd amendment rights

Of course we can hope that in that rehab treatment they might learn to spell 'permanent' and 'efficient' but aside from that, I doubt it will make them better persons.  Better spellers perhaps, and that may well be something.

You think they are going to give up a life of crime to be Harvard lawyers and peruse a life of crime that pays better?  I doubt it.

Sorry Tekla as I believe there was a miscommunication on my part. When I said "you never read such and such stories" I didn't mean you personally but the you (plural) as in the general "everybody" in society. I should have phrased it "we never read such and such stories in the media..." The point of course is that it would be more empowering to hear more of these stories (if they exist at all) of trans people fighting back when attacked and doing so successfully. It makes us look less like victims and also sends a message to hate-mongerers that we aren't going to be victimized without a fight.

I do believe you may have misunderstood my statement about a "permanent education (sic)." Since 2nd Amendment refers to the right to bear arms in the United States, it essentially means that should the perp try to seriously injure or kill an armed potential victim that person may not need tax-paid corrective "education" and "rehabilitation" since they will be permanently "corrected" the hard way.

I do agree with your point, however, that you cannot be safe 100% of the time as none of us are invincible. You could be walking with friends during a safe time of day and in a safe neighborhood and even armed yet something could still happen. I do support minimizing that chance of being attacked without losing freedoms in the process (such as having to take a different route out of fear).

Quote from: Karen on June 30, 2009, 10:54:51 PM

Joseph Holladay didn't get a chance to march in the city's annual Gay Pride parade on Sunday because he was brutally beaten by a gang of young men on the Upper East Side just hours before the celebration was set to start. Cops are investigating the crime as an anti-gay bias attack

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Post Merge: July 02, 2009, 02:52:03 PM

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The picture in queerty is not the person in queens that got attacked and I suspect the rest of the story is also false.

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Post Merge: July 02, 2009, 04:01:19 PM

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Worst of all, some people--mostly adolescent males and young men--go to places like Roosevelt Avenue (and parts of Chelsea or the Village) for gays and transgenders to beat up or even kill. Those same young males also go to places like Roosevelt Avenue and commit the same kinds of violence against immigrant day laborers. They are the people "no one will miss," so they are easy targets.


As was Leslie Mora. Any young woman leaving a club on a place like Roosevelt Avenue is vulnerable; that she is trans practically made her a target. Her attackers, who shared her ethnicity, didn't see her as one of their own; she didn't belong on "their" turf. And, ironically (at least to anyone who has not spent time in these communities), she also didn't belong in the "gay" areas: She is younger than they are; she is poorer. She is a woman--a transgendered woman. And she got caught in the middle of a ethno-socio-economic battlefield whose barbed wire and mines consist of sex and gender expression.

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Post Merge: July 02, 2009, 05:04:48 PM

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The Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund (TLDEF) is reporting an alleged bias attack against a transgender woman in Queens on June 19. Leslie Mora was walking home at about 2:30 A.M. along Roosevelt Avenue when she was attacked by two men, Trinidad Tapia, 19, and Gilberto Ortiz, 32, who yelled "->-bleeped-<-got" in Spanish as they beat her with a belt and metal buckle.

The assailants fled the scene but were arrested by police soon after the attack. Both were charged with assault with intent to cause physical injury with a weapon, a felony, and released on their own recognizance.

The Queens County District Attorney has declined to investigate the attack as a hate crime because current law does not provide protection for gender identity, according to TLDEF. Michael Silverman, the group's executive director, said in a statement,

Quote from: Britney_413 on July 02, 2009, 12:37:18 AM
I do believe you may have misunderstood my statement about a "permanent education (sic)." Since 2nd Amendment refers to the right to bear arms in the United States, it essentially means that should the perp try to seriously injure or kill an armed potential victim that person may not need tax-paid corrective "education" and "rehabilitation" since they will be permanently "corrected" the hard way.

in most cases you will be charged with a crime for using a pistol to defend yourself.  However it happens, it won't be as easy as you think.

Though I have no problem with your solution

I do have to say that despite what is legal or not, I still don't trust the justice system. However, you are likely to be prosecuted with a crime if you shot someone in New York or California than say Arizona or a bunch of other states. That is because it is on the books here that you can legally carry a gun without a permit and you can legally shoot someone in self-defense if your life is in danger. There are cases here where people are actually released right on the scene and never even have to defend themselves in court. A lot of it probably does depend on where you live. Regardless, it is a human right to live your life free from the violence of others. Nobody has the right to harm you especially when you are minding your own business and not harming anyone else. I believe it is "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." When it comes to transgender bashing incidents I would rather read more articles about TG people defending their actions in court and more of the perpetrators clinging on to life in the hospitals then what we currently have: perps walking away free or not even caught at all in the first place or given minimal sentences if they are and TG people going straight to the morgue with barely any media attention given and not even getting the gender and name right if they do give us any. Freedom isn't free. You have to fight for your rights and sometimes the hard way.

QuoteFreedom isn't free

There is no such thing as freedom. there is just a pecking order.

Quote from: lisagurl on July 05, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
There is no such thing as freedom. there is just a pecking order.

So what is your solution? Do nothing. Maybe there is never 100% freedom but there are degrees of it. Since you don't believe that freedom exists, I take it you don't see a difference between being able to live out your life based on your own decisions primarily with minimal controls in place vs. living in a prison cell where every aspect of your life from eating, sleeping, and sex (if you are allowed any at all) to entertainment, education, and socializing were all pre-decided for you. Sorry, but you are wrong here. As long as the majority of the population shares similar apathetic views, nobody will have freedom. Transgender people will not gain equal rights by sitting in front of the boob tube and waiting for them to be delivered. It's as simple as that.

QuoteIt's as simple as that.

So simple that we are forced to adhere to societies rule or not survive. We have to speak a language that is not clear, go to schools that only create workers and consumers, dress in a standard fashion, eat factory food, walk only in designated areas, labor  for services we do not want or need, etc. No we are not free and it is not so simple.

I believe it is simple but that people are too unwilling or lazy to make necessary changes. Here is why it is simple: the power is in the hands of the people. The average person in the U.S. watches 4 hours of TV a day. If tomorrow everybody at once decided to not watch TV and instead spend that time discussing real issues with other people (something people never seem to do), this would quickly result in organizing and action. If city block by city block neighbors turned off their sets and came out into the streets (assuming reasonable weather) and talked with their neighbors, the entire country and even the world would change within a matter of hours. It is simple but people won't do it.

Take the internet for example. There is a wealth of information that just about anyone can access without much trouble. Even in third world countries where many people don't own personal PCs, internet cafés are often widely available. With millions of people logging in every hour, the choice for them to search for and view information that is relevant and valuable in the real world and quite educational is for the most part a choice the millions choose out of their own free will not to make. Instead, they choose Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, and a bunch of celebrity gossip news websites. When it comes to you as an individual making change in yourself (what you learn, how you act, what you stand for, how you treat others, etc.) it is very simple. The not so simple part is figuring out why the other 99% of people don't want to step out of the hive mind.

Trans people despite all our difficulties are not special in this way either. I'm not perfect myself but many of my efforts to get my trans friends to "snap out of it" are often wasted efforts. Regardless, just because all the other people don't want to take full control over their own lives doesn't mean that I won't. This goes right back to the "walking down the street at night" example. It may be dangerous for me to walk down a particular street but if I do it 100 times and leave unharmed thereby setting an example and then a second person does it and so forth, we could revolutionize the entire country where men, women, and TG people are no longer afraid to walk around late at night regardless of city or neighborhood. It can only be up to the individual to decide what risks they are willing to take for change in the world and what prices they are willing to pay. However, there can never be any change unless someone somewhere is at least willing to take some risk and pay some price. It is my opinion that anyone who chooses to be a complete follower taking no risks whatsoever to place them outside of their comfort zone and in turn waiting for a leader to take those risks for them has absolutely no right to complain over the conditions they are in. You are not responsible for the predicaments others put you in, but you are responsible for the choices (or lackthereof) you make to get you out of them (or not). Enough said.

Quotethe power is in the hands of the people

Not true, power is the hands of those with money. Without funding the most aggressive people are stopped in their tracks.

QuoteThere is a wealth of information that just about anyone can access without much trouble

Yes, much of it is false and manipulative.

Quotewe could revolutionize the entire country where men, women  and TG people are no longer afraid to walk around late at night regardless of city or neighborhood

Tell that to Iraq.

QuoteNot true, power is the hands of those with money. Without funding the most aggressive people are stopped in their tracks.

Not all power. Most if not all revolutions throughout history did not involve the use of large sums of money or even required a significant amount of it. In many cases the opposite is true. If everybody suddenly walked off their jobs, stopped buying, and took to the streets all at once, the money system itself would be at an immediate stand still.

I'm not sure why you and so many people are so cynical about change. The fact that you keep debating this perhaps brings some hope that you aren't completely cynical because afterall you are still discussing it, something most people rarely do. Yes, money is the primary power tool but it only works for people who participate in the system that requires it. Protesting, striking, and organizing often require very little money if any at all. The illusion is that the people have no power but they do have the power. They have the power to keep participating in the system as they do currently or opt-out of it in a revolutionary manner. The only real catch is that it requires large numbers of people to organize and do it at the same time, not just an individual here or there. It can be done and it has been done throughout history. We have no utopia yet but positive change has been brought mostly by people who eventually decide that "enough is enough" and organize and resist. I am not spending time giving history lessons here and I think the point has been made.

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Post Merge: July 09, 2009, 01:11:42 AM

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If you wish to discuss/debate this issue further, why not actually discuss the entirety of my points? I have just reviewed your responses and not a single one of them actually addressed my points in full. Instead, you took mere snippets here and there and commented on the snippets which make little sense if not understood in the overall context. Sorry but large ideas can't be said in five words like most Americans prefer. If you aren't capable or willing to comment on the overall material I'm presenting, that tells me you don't really have any ideas of your own to contribute so why waste the time at all? Taking things out of context tells me that you don't really want to address the actual issue at all.

QuoteProtesting, striking, and organizing often require very little money if any at all.

Most all protesting, striking, and media, history events fizzled out in the long term without huge monetary support. It is only those working through the system without much money that change things slowly.

I am not a typist and hate spelling. I will not post long debates in writing. Talk to me in person if you want a long response.

Most protests go nowhere, and when the do its often because of the huge amounts of money involved - civil disturbances, boycotts, general strikes cost people huge amounts of money, hence there is a rush to solve those problems.

Quote from: tekla on July 09, 2009, 11:48:39 AM
Most protests go nowhere, and when the do its often because of the huge amounts of money involved - civil disturbances, boycotts, general strikes cost people huge amounts of money, hence there is a rush to solve those problems.

don't forget it often takes the loss of life