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Churches and transsexuality

Started by Witch of Hope, July 15, 2009, 08:10:13 PM

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Witch of Hope

I have often asked myself, why churches condemn transsexual people so with pleasure? Why they preach hate on transgendered people instead of charity don't? Why they treat transsexual people as a 2nd class citizen and why they destroy families?
I was a member of the LDS, and can consider only from this point of view at these questions. Others can act from the point of view of their (former?) church.
I own a copy of "Church Handbook of Instructions" from 1999 which is determined only for leaders of the Mormons. Simple Mormons will never see it. I will cite a little later something from it.
Nevertheless, before I would like to point out to the fact that Mormons  treat transsexuality less than two different questions:

* If somebody is a member of the church, and wants to carry out then the gender change, or
* If somebody has already come as a ready operated person to the church.

Then their whole behavior lines up.

Transsexual Mormons:

I use this word for the Mormons who discover during their membership that they are transsexual. The handbook of instructions says about them:

QuoteTranssexual Operation
Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer should inform him of this counsel and advise him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. He may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary. (Page 95)

QuoteRecords with Annotations
In areas where the First Presidency has given authorization, an annotation may be placed on the record of a member whose conduct has threatened the well-being of other persons or of the Church. An annotation helps the bishop protect Church members and others from such individuals. When a bishop receives an annotated membership record, he should follow the instructions in the annotation.
Church headquarters will automatically annotate a person's membership record when the stake president or bishop:
1. Submits a Report of Church Disciplinary Action showing that the person was
disciplined for incest, sexual offense against or serious physical abuse of a child, plural
marriage, an elective transsexual operation, repeated homosexual activities (by adults), or embezzlement of Church funds or property. (Page 128)

Interesting, that in the eye of the LDS cult, transsexuality is the same as child abuse)

Non-members with transsexual past before their baptism:

Quote: Persons Who Are Considering or Have Undergone a Transsexual Operation
Persons who are considering an elective transsexual operation should not be baptized. Persons who have already undergone an elective transsexual operation may be baptized if they are otherwise found worthy in an interview with the mission president or a priesthood leader he assigns. Such persons may not receive the priesthood or a temple recommend. (Page 26)

Let me once again summarize:

Members are excommunicated immediately if they want to undergone a surgery. The non-members who stand before this decision mayn't be baptized. And though non-members who have already gone this step can be baptized after many talks about their "worthiness", but get neither the priesthood (FtM), nor a temple recommend. And just these both things are important in the "theology" of the Mormons. Without priesthood they is no eternal progress and without temple visit also. "celestial kingdom" is closed for ever for transsexual people. And therefore they are 2nd class citizen.
In all books of the Mormons whom I had read and I have read many, I have never experienced the reason for it, why Mormons think so. "We are against it", seems to be the only comment they have had. However, why, I never learned.
Thus I was made make to myself own thoughts. I can fancythe following theories:


Pre-existence theory:

Mormons think that they lived as "a spirit being", before they came on  earth. And which we were already almost ready there.That the color of our skin and our gender was determined. . Now my thesis says that Mormons think that a gender, or the gender role, for ever is prescribed and is unchangeable. With it( they contradict the scientific knowledge.

Fear of homosexuality theory:

Mormons are afraid of homosexual at which they look as "a role breaker" which want to destroy the mormon patriarchal order. And it isn't about it, according to my theory, which women become men, and get the rights of men. Including to the right to marry a woman in the temple.

Ignorance theory:

According to this theory Mormons don't know, and don't want to know also it what means gender really, and which it contains more than only the "MALE-FEMALE matter".

What do you think about that? How is the situation in your churches? And, have you counted because of the behavior towards the church?
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Tammy Hope

Well, I have spent my whole life in the Southern Baptist denomination. I hold a minor in Biblical studies from a Southern Baptist College. I have been aware of all flavors of Baptist preaching from Fundy to liberal and have taken course in the theology of other major Evangelical and protestant denominations. I'm also aware of the typical proof-texts.

I have never seen in any official Baptist Publication, nor course work on what we believe, nor ever heard preached from the pulpit, ANY specific doctrine against transsexualism.

Nevertheless, I am well aware that the Denomination does NOT condone it and that the vast majority would say "I think it is wrong"

That said, of the few people I have told about this, most if not all of them are Baptist and even the one who told me frankly that she didn't agree with it followed up immediately by saying that she believed that it was more important to treat people with love and kindness though, and that we would continue on as we had before and things would be fine (she's my landlady) and she has been nothing but kind and caring and friendly with me since.

I think that while a Christian can say, to an abstract question, "I think it's wrong", that same person VERY often will be quite kind to one of us when we "put a face on it" for them.

Most of the time a person who is hateful is hateful anyway, religion is just a vehicle not a cause. Likewise, if they are loving and kind, then no religious teaching will make them unkind. Not when you are face to face.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Tammy Hope

Dobson was raised in the Church of the Nazarene but the organization is offically non-denominational.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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tekla

Church of the Nazarene - well for sure old Jim can't dance then.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Debra

The guys at my bible study have already said that I will be "excommunicated" if I start to go thru with transition. They say it in such a way that I could still of course come to church but would no longer be considered a believing brother (no pun intended) that gets all the benefits of community.

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gothique11

Well, I was raised LDS/Mormon as well, and gender plays a large role in the church and its theology. Transitioning is seen as rejecting god's plan (aka, plan of salvation)... especially if you're already a member, and even more especially if you've already been through the temple and taken out your endowments. Transitioning is seen as a rejection of your endowments (and also a rejection of god/plan of salvation/christ) and that's one of the main reasons for being excommunicated.
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Cindy

This seems to be a very USA thing,

You Guys and Gals seem to have a weird religious system.
I certainly don't wish to offend, but many of the USA religions seem to be more corporative than religious. In such structures you cannot afford to have outliers. Outliers reduce income and also make people question. Religions based on corporative ideology have to have control of their members. If you don't fit the mould, you are out, you are too much trouble.

Again please don't take offense. If you are in a religion, do as advised in Watergate; follow the money. You may not be able too. If so. why not? If that information is only available to the (elders, tophats, cardinals, whatevers.) WHY?
I am a cynic and non-religous but I am still totally amazed about how willing innocent and "little" people will contribute to the Reverends new Rolls Royce etc.

I'm never suprised when they are caught out with a prostitute, their mistress or raping a child, or other such activity that they beg forgivness for their weakness.

God will forgive my sin, but I will keep the profit (sorry about the pun)

BTW
I'm starting a new Church of Transexuals. Just send me $50.95 and you can be a member


Sorry people feeling very cynical tonight

Cindy, Praise the Lord
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Witch of Hope

Quote from: gothique11 on September 03, 2009, 02:51:33 AM
Well, I was raised LDS/Mormon as well, and gender plays a large role in the church and its theology. Transitioning is seen as rejecting god's plan (aka, plan of salvation)... especially if you're already a member, and even more especially if you've already been through the temple and taken out your endowments. Transitioning is seen as a rejection of your endowments (and also a rejection of god/plan of salvation/christ) and that's one of the main reasons for being excommunicated.

This was also my experiences. That's why they didn't want to allowed me to be baptized again (and no I'm not interested in)  Do you know this about this "Church":

http://www.affirmation.org/memorial/white_shirts_and_high_heels.shtml
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: Jerica on August 30, 2009, 06:12:56 PM
The guys at my bible study have already said that I will be "excommunicated" if I start to go thru with transition. They say it in such a way that I could still of course come to church but would no longer be considered a believing brother (no pun intended) that gets all the benefits of community.
What denomination?

I'm not surprised by the LDS stories - too much of their theology is bound up in gender roles for it not to be a big issue there

There are not a lot of other churches that still do formal "excommunication" even if it's in their theology. Catholics, i know but I haven't heard of Catholic churches going through with excom just for being trans but maybe I'm just not noticing.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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tekla

Catholic excommunication is an extremely legalistic and scholarly process (like just about everything else in the Church) and you really have to write something, rather than just do it.  You really have to go at church doctrine, not just sin.  At any rate there is no formal finding about TS/transitioning in church doctrine, and though I'm sure they will have one some day, don't hold your breath.  Glaciers are race-cars compared to the Catholic Church.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Witch of Hope

My Personal Question:

Why are Churches against us in a Christian Religion? In Moslemic Countries we are accepted. In the Judaism is a discussion (except the orthodox) about us. Why do Christian Churches "hate" us?
In Cologne, were I lived for a while, was on
ce a protestant pastor. He was trans and made a sex change surgery to be a woman. She didn't find a job as a pastor. Her name ist Karin Kammans. Here a Link to her story (unfortunately in German): http://www.transgender-net.de/news/news-881.html
But she isn't the only Case in Germany (I know Patrizia from Berlin), or in the USA. Why?
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Steph

I was a Mormon ( a little miss guided back then) but my letter of disciple is proudly framed and hangs next to my letter of excommunication :) And they though I was crazy.

However the United Church of Canada is quite accepting if one is so inclined.

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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K8

I'm Unitarian Universalist.  The national organization provides a curriculum for congregations to learn to be more welcoming to LGBT folk.  My congregation went through the process in 2001.  Next week I will begin facilitating the refresher course, working with 5 non-LGBT people in the congregation as facilitators.

I know of at least two UU ordained ministers who are TS, but I don't doubt there are more.

Yes, Cindy, the USA has a huge range of religions.  It's a result of a history of the state minding its business and not favoring one religion over another (with some very notable exceptions, all of which turned out badly :P).

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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gennee

Sadly the church was one of the institutions which helped to foment the hatred towards transgender people. During the middle ages the tried to tie ->-bleeped-<- with witchcraft. During the early years of America many transgender people were tried as witches and executed.

Gradually I see some changes are happening in mainstream denomination. Recently the Episcopal church passed a decree that same-sex couples could be ordained. Recently an FTM minister came out to his flock about his true identity. It was wonderful that his congregation accepted him.

I am transgender and Christian. I'm telling transgender people that God loves them. Not an easy task but it has to be done.

Gennee 
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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Debra

Quote from: Laura Hope on September 04, 2009, 01:43:31 PM
What denomination?

Non-Denominational Christian although I doubt the Lutheran Brethren church my parents go to would be accepting either

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jainie marlena

I only herd one message at the baptist church I was going to. the preacher seem to think that transsexuals were changing their sex so they would not be homosexuals that was over 15 years ago.

Vanessa_yhvh

This evening I emailed two on my short list of potentially progressive churches in my area, inquiring whether they were welcoming of transgender individuals. I further clarified that I'm a pretty mundane white-collar home owner in [respectable area] who was born male but due to gender dysphoria is living life as a woman under the care of a competent team of medical and psychological professionals.

Should be interesting.
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Witch of Hope

Quote from: laineyjain on July 27, 2010, 10:29:53 PM
I only herd one message at the baptist church I was going to. the preacher seem to think that transsexuals were changing their sex so they would not be homosexuals that was over 15 years ago.

Unfortunately, nothing has changed in most churches in this topic. They try even to "cure" us from the "influence of  Satan".  ;D
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Elijah3291

(just wanted to throw this in)

but my brother and stepdad have told be about a christian church near me (the south) that is accepting of trans people, and even has a bathroom for transgender people to use.
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