Hey guys and dolls,
I still look like a woman. (god, weird how the simple word 'woman' sends shivers of cold dysphoria down my spine)
I have no breasts, no hips, no ass, facial hair, and I still look female. Course it's only been 3 months, 3 weeks, and about 6 days since I started T and there have been loads of changes except for body and face shapes (the  hips/ass thing were already nonexistent beforehand).
My smell has changed, my skin has changed, my voice has changed, my facial and body hair have changed, hell even my pores have changed! but I still look female. Is my face and body shapes supposed to change to look more male or something?
And at the 4 month mark, I'm wondering if I'm ever going to look male. Are there any ftms who never pass?
I mean it seems almost ridiculous - other than being 5'5, I have no obvious female markers or 'tells'. I have a normal body shape, no hips, beer gut, not small or anything, medium build for a guy, thick skinned. What is making me look female?
The only thing is I'm a little chubby, maybe this is making me look feminine? I don't know.
I've been obsessing about my appearance a bit lately, wondering when I'm going to start passing. I know it's not the figure or the voice anymore. What it is, I do not know.
I normally wouldn't be so impatient, but I'm about to change the name and gender marker Monday and I'm going to feel weird all legally male and not passing.
It sounds like I'm complaining but I am really happy with all the changes T and surgery have brought. I just feel really weird in the middle like this. I just look like an androgynous, titless female. I don't even look masculine, no matter how closely clippered my hair gets.
Thanks for listening. Rant over. 

A few people said to me that my skeleton looks like men's, despite other feminine features. I have not yet compared the thickness or shape of my skeleton with other men.

Barbie~~

I think that we are probably all so used to seeing our faces the way they've looked for our whole lives that even when we look at a vastly different appearance, those few tiny similarities (which aren't necessarily male or female, just familiar characteristics) make us think that our whole appearance looks exactly the same as it always did.

It's like how we see faces in clouds or in shadows on the stucco ceiling or in raindrops on the window. Our brains are hard-wired to see and recognize faces. When we meet someone new, oftentimes we look for similarities to other people we know "oh, he's got eyes very similar to Bob" or "her smile is like a cross between Janet and Shelly".

So when we look in the mirror and see a face that has a few similarities to one we've known our whole lives, our brain fills in the blanks and what we "see" is tinted by that recognition. I'm sure you look way less feminine than you think you do.

And if you're not passing, it could be that your internal view of "I just look like a woman" is seeping through to how you carry yourself and therefore, how the world sees you. How many times have we heard people in the passing threads saying "if you've gotta ask, you don't". If you think you look like a woman because of that recognition in the mirror, then you're more likely to come across as looking like a woman. Whereas if you think "I totally look like a guy" and feel confident as you walk about your life, people tend to gloss over the details. Like the guy who sir'd me today even though he heard my voice. I think I was just so much in "guy mode" at the time that he must've figured "oh, that dude's got a high voice".

I know a few bio-guys who have really feminine looking faces, but they have no boobs or hips, have a deep voice, have facial hair, etc. So people read them as a "guy with a feminine face" or "that pretty boy" at the worst. Most straight, cis, "normal" people don't think "oh, that's a post-t transguy who's bio features are still showing through"... They figure "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck... hmm, that duck has pink feathers" and not "looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but has pink feathers, must be a really short flamingo with duck feet and quacks and..." lol

Maybe if you stop trusting that damn mirror (it lies... lies, I say!) and just "be"... Maybe you'll feel your inner guy seeping out and melting away any ambiguity and everyone else will see that too. Just a theory though, ymmv.

Post a picture so we can see, maybe we can get your confidence up.

I know it hurts and makes you cringe, but you're not gonna be perfect at 3 months. Give yourself a break and you probably will pass eventually. And you'll start to just become a guy with really pretty facial structure. Thats not always bad Doesn't the face lose some of the fat on it after T is added? It will look better as time goes on and your features "Sharpen"

Nero, I'll PM you a pic tomorrow.  Have to go to work now and can't compile it.  It will be pre-T, 2 mos on T, 5 mos on T, 8 mos on T, and 11 mos on T.  I'm now 1 yr 1 mo on T but haven't taken a new pic yet.


Jay

Nero, my big handsome brother, I'm sorry but I just can't picture you as anything other than a guy, even when you had that profile pic of you before.  All I saw was a great and wonderful man in those eyes.

I'm not sure about how long T takes, the guys can talk to you about that, but your sister Jenn is here for you.  *big hugs*  

If it makes you feel any better, I've been on T 2 days longer than you have, and I'm still ma'am-ed most of the time.     But it's early days yet. 

Little Brother, you will always be a man to me, Hon.  And you are still young on T.  It will take time.  Just buck up and be the man. 

I am still changing on E at 18 months.  Let the inner man shine thru and the world will see him.

Love Ya, Bro. 
Janet

I'm not a big believer in the "People judge your gender by how much you believe in it" outlook, so I'll wager a few guesses at what's most likely your trouble:

A) How MUCH has your voice changed? Is it definitely, inarguably male, or has it just gotten deeper as a female voice? No matter how good you look, if you have a female voice (even a very low one), you're not going to pass as male. I still think voice is the most important thing (yes, just as much as breasts) in whether an FTM passes or not.

B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 


C) Related somewhat to B, where do you live? If you live somwhere like San Francisco, you're going to find it much more difficult to pass among the very-similar-looking lesbians and androgynes than you would in Oklahoma or Ohio.

D) This is't really something you can fix, but you probably have a very feminine facial structure. This won't ultimately prevent you from passing (with a beard, no one will notice), but it will prolong the in-between period.

I personally bet it's a combination of your facial bone structure and your voice. Some guys take over a year to develop a fully male voice - you're probably just one of the vocally unlucky ones. Still, it'd be quite helpful if you'd post a picture (or even better, a video).

Quote from: petzjazz on August 15, 2009, 10:49:20 PM
B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 

I totally agree with this actually.

Quote from: petzjazz on August 15, 2009, 10:49:20 PM
I'm not a big believer in the "People judge your gender by how much you believe in it" outlook, so I'll wager a few guesses at what's most likely your trouble:

A) How MUCH has your voice changed? Is it definitely, inarguably male, or has it just gotten deeper as a female voice? No matter how good you look, if you have a female voice (even a very low one), you're not going to pass as male. I still think voice is the most important thing (yes, just as much as breasts) in whether an FTM passes or not.

B) What haircut do you have? You said it's closely clipped - having a close-cut haircut can sometimes emphasize the female-shape of your skull, making you appear more as a stereotypical "dyke" (which many people are used to seeing and identifying nowadays) than a male. 


C) Related somewhat to B, where do you live? If you live somwhere like San Francisco, you're going to find it much more difficult to pass among the very-similar-looking lesbians and androgynes than you would in Oklahoma or Ohio.

D) This is't really something you can fix, but you probably have a very feminine facial structure. This won't ultimately prevent you from passing (with a beard, no one will notice), but it will prolong the in-between period.

I personally bet it's a combination of your facial bone structure and your voice. Some guys take over a year to develop a fully male voice - you're probably just one of the vocally unlucky ones. Still, it'd be quite helpful if you'd post a picture (or even better, a video).

I think you're right. It's probably a combination of all of them. Don't live in SF, but still don't pass. I do get some different kind of looks though, as if people staring a little more, maybe having to think about it. But that could be my imagination as well.

On another note, has anyone known or seen an ftm who never ended up passing?

Nero,

You seem too much pessimistic.

Probably a recent photo of you would help others suggest something to change your looking.

Barbie~~

Dear Bro, to give you a smile I hope.

Mirror, mirror on the wall, this is Nero; will I ever pass at all?

'course you will ->-bleeped-<-, just stop asking me dumb questions.

Sorry bro. Take care. 3 months on T and not looking like Hulk Hogan. Does that mean that after 3 on E I'm not going to look like Elle?

Take care my friend, sorry about the Aussie humour

Cindy

Quote from: Nero on August 15, 2009, 11:23:02 PM
On another note, has anyone known or seen an ftm who never ended up passing?

I do know one guy who has been on T for 4 or 5 years, and his voice hasn't completely dropped, so he doesn't pass 100%.  Plus he's a bit over weight, and much of the fat is still sitting in a feminine position.  That was the same issue for the one FtM in Loren Cameron's book who didn't really look 100% male to me, as well. (Never heard him speak, so I wouldn't know about that.)

It happens, but it's rare.

I know another guy who had voice issues for a couple of years before he started passing.  He said the best thing he ever did was to get the help of a voice coach.  By the time I met him he passed completely. (In fact, he was kinda cute.  )

But, as others have said, it's probably a bit early to be worrying about it.  (Says the guy who frets constantly over the same thing  )

I still say that a good portion of passing is your personal outlook.
The day you see a man in the mirror, and let go completely of the need to see feminine aspects, a shift will occur, subtle but none the less it will, and a man will walk out the door, and none will question the fact that he's a man.

(Worded poorly I know, but I have a migrane atm so I CBA to reword it)

I my experience, it depends a lot also on your confidence.
I'm pre-T, but I usually pass.
Some weeks ago, there was a period in which I was really depressed, I did lost my confidence and self-esteem and... well, I had the same haircut I have now, I dressed the same clothes, and I was madam'ed all the time.
Now I have again confidence and don't have problems with passing (except when I go in gay bars, because there are a lot of manly lesbians ).
So, well, don't ask yourself if you look like a man or a woman. Just go, just behave as a man, just show confidence. And if someone mistakes you for a woman just correct him.

I must confess to being somewhat irritated by some replies here. 'Confidence' may work for someone who already looks masculine enough which I don't.
Really guys, if that worked we wouldn't be in this condition. No amount of confidence is going to make people see what's not there.
I've been secure in my maleness for many years now. It's nothing to do with that.

I can empathize on why it would make you feel uncomfortable but you have to consider how manly do little boys who are only 4months into puberty look?