HEHEHE I am tempted ! but I will refrain, you see the only spanish I know is from the Mexicians I worked with at Hoyte Waterheater co, in Reno Nv. and though they tought me alot of spanish  in exchange for me teaching them english
the only thing that is repeatable is "Usa Un Materio Grandie " ( if I spelled it right which I seriously doubt, means use a bigger hammer Bob ! )
....( I was mechanicing in the forklift shop at the time! )
Many a fun hour was spent rehurseing the phrazes they tought me ! hehehehe
but unfortionately its all cuss words and such ! hehehehe
....
Anyway , I thought sure someone would have comented on my post about "that some times I feel like all you have to do is get your stuff togather and do it "....  but I guess no body else has those feelings eh ?
  I mean I realise 90 percent of the time people NEED to be cottled and hugged.... but some times they need to be booted out the door too to get them on the way....     Am I alone in this feeling ? 
problem is discerning the person's needs by reading their posts is extreamily hard !
....
  So How do You discern a persons needs by reading their posts ?
its not like you can see their winceing at a sertain sponken word, or the tears in their eyes....  I find playing, Dr.Kelly Here extreamily Hard! though in person its very simple and comes natural.  I am contunually haunted by the thoughts of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time,  but I also know
that any help is better than No help.
  I realy am NOT a people person... I never have been, and therefore my people skills are very low.  Pluss I have alwayse been one to speak my mind and to heck with the consiquences.... but this I have been finding is more of a detriment than it is a help in most cases.
After all , this is what this forem is about, how do you descern How to help
a person from their posts ?   intuintion ? gut instints ? LUCK ? roll the dice ?

I think,
ONE) would be to Listen (or read in this case) to what they say.
TWO) look for the problem, if they point it out that makes that task alot easier!
THREE) think on weather they pointed out the correct ptoblem or not as sometimes people are blind to that
FOUR) provide solutions to fix the problems in your responce, being as diplomatic about it as possable.  because sometimes people won't want to hear the truth. but you must give it to them in as much a palitable way as possable.
FIVE) remember it it only by the grace of god that you don't have that problem
and you could easily be confrunted by it in the future. so be humble !
SIX) If you have had that problem then you are in a unique position to help this person,  in that case give the fine details of the way to solve it.
SEVON) If you don't know don't guess without letting them KNOW that you are just guessing ! ... the old saying goes "two heads are better than one" in solveing a problem ! and this is very true !  but make sure they understand what kind of help you are offering in your comments.  if you've "been there done that" tell them. if you have first hand information , or if your just guessing and trying to help figure out a way to help,  the important part is that the recieveing person understands what kind of information they are getting. don't leave it to guess work.
EIGHT) Try not to post if you are upset !  if you are realy Irritated at something, or someone. It cannot help but effect your comments.
NINE) Do not feel as if you MUST post.... I admit half the time I think I MUST, and if I have nothing constructive to add whats the use ? say you agree and leave it at that.
TEN) Alwayse, when replying to a post... have your HART in the right place.
My Mother told me "If you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all ! "   and those are words to live by !
.....


so what else is there ?  you tell me !
...
Bob..........

Bob,

You've got a special insight into the "discernment".  Most of us just have a gut reaction. Sometimes prose flows from my digits.  Who knows which is right? Perhaps there is no right for most cases.  Sometimes all I need is a a broad shoulder to cry on.  And that does wonders for me.  Just an understanding ear, someone to hear my cries of help.

Cindi

OH come on Cindi! <GRIN>
you can do better than that ! you know people better than most on this board !
How can you tell what to say ? is it the way its worded ? the words used or what ?
  for example, this is a imanagary post ok ?
  "I have recently discovered that I am A TS and I don't know what to do about it. I do know that I am TS because  all my life i felt I was a girl trapped in a boys body... what do I do ? where can I turn ? "

How would you Respond to this fictious post ? what can you say and how far can you go  without knowing more information ?

  personally I'ed say there isn't much you could say to a post like this Right ?  UNLESS you had the same experiences .
....granted 3 lines isn't much to go on , but aside from telling the person to seek help from a theropest,  what else can you do ?
...
after all thats what we're all here for , to help one another... and some of us are extreamily good at it and others arn't .... hehheh teach ME ! HAHAHAH
<GRIN>
Bob........

Bob I like your outline of how of "discernment" or how to meet peoples needs.
My favorite is number 10

QuoteAlways, when replying to a post... have your HEART in the right place.

The one that

I personally have problems with is number 4

Quoteprovide solutions to fix the problems in your responce, being as diplomatic about it as possable.  because sometimes people won't want to hear the truth. but you must give it to them in as much a palitable way as possable.

I always want to save them or heal them but an answer is not what they always need. Many times they already know the answer and are not ready to face it. Our job is to just let them tell us what there problem(s) is (are) and try to understand how they feel. So I love to give hugs and cry with them.

Jillieann

Usually, a person knows deep inside what needs to be done.  The trick is to get them to realize it.  So, you need to get them talking.  And you need to listen.  Doing all of this is very difficult through the ethernet medium.  Words will seldom portray an accurate picture as you have pointed out Bob.  It is the image that the individual wants you to see.  How do you see through it?  It must be drawn out of them. I know that no one wants to hear my truth.  After all, many truths are not clearly defined, especially where human perception is involved.  So the trick is to listen, offer tidbits to spark interest, and listen some more.

Cindi

Oh Nice New Pic Jilliann !

Ok ... that explains my reluctance to post when only a few things have been said.... you simply don't know enough yet to make a statement.
...
Cindi Make no mistake I want to hear your Truth. but I realise others may not
or just simply may not be ready for it .
 
...
Lets take a for instance here and we'll use Tinkerbell as the gunipig <GRIN>
when Tink  mentioned that she was plegged by nightmares and was actually under medication because of them I knew I had something in common with her...
because I was plegged by nightmares years ago, and it was driveing me to drink or crazy ,or what ever , it wasn't good ! ... but I cured the nightmares  myself by controling my dreams enough to where I changed a few things...  I turned on my presurers...  because I was simply tired of running
and hideing in fear. every night the same nightmare gets Old in a very short time.  consiquently I have through the years learned alot about dreams and what they mean to me, what they are and why.
So I have learned that it is an easy cure,  or at least it was for me , that doesn't mean it will be for Tinkerbell, that depends totally upon her.
the worst nightmare of them all was the one that ended the nightmare chain...
I was being persued, by mean men, and I was running far too slow to excape them.. my goose was cooked, and I knew it.... somewhere along the line I wound up with my hunting knife on my hip , it had never been there before but it was there now. so I used it... I climed a tree and waited for my presuers to approach they walked under the tree and I lept out of the tree holding the hunting knife with both hands  infront of me, the end results sent me jumping a foot off bed and wakeing up . as I had cut the individual from neck groin in one move...  there was no need to worry about the others... as I woke up with quite a start to say the least... but that was the last nightmare of that type I ever had.  though from time to time I still have nightmares, their never as intense as that, and usually disperse when i turn to face my attackers, which I do without question now.. big or small it doesn't matter
I just ain't going to run from a fear in my head.  sometimes in my dreams the results are less than favorable, my brain playing out the world of IF I suppose.
....
BUT ... sense I had previous experience in this airea it was easy to comment to Tink about this, though I am hesitant to say for an absolute certainly that it will work for her , I do know it worked extreamily well for me .

I guess Helping others has a prerequeset to it... you have to have experience in the feild ,or a good amagination in order to help.

thanks Tinkerbell You make a wonderfull Gunipig ! <HUG> !!!

Bob.......

Quote from: Bob on August 27, 2006, 11:05:20 PM

thanks Tinkerbell You make a wonderfull Gunipig ! <HUG> !!!

Bob.......

Oh... you are always welcome Bob, anytime.  Actually I feel as if I had been a guinea pig all these years, believe me, I do


tinkerbell

HEHEH Tinkerbell You are alwayse so nice, makes me proud to be assoiated with you ! <GRIN>
Your up late I see.....again!
more insonimia ?
...
I have a good excuse I got up at 5:00pm.... so I'm just getting started ! HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

Schedual ? we don't need no stinkin' schedual !
hehehehehe

Bob......

Oh yea! Jillieann's new pic is great!  I like this one very much.

Cindi

Oh nice to see someone put this in a diferent topic ! its better that way!
I have the problem of forgetting what thred I am on ! (blush)...
so when I reply to one thred  sometimes I wind up thinking about another thred and it gets all confuzelated in translation ! hehehehe
getting old I guess ! HAHAHA!
...
So Tinkerbell, can we run you over the coals some more ?  your tough enough to handle it, lets see why your dreams are so presistant shall we ?
it makes good practice ! <Grin!> and might help rid you of the sleeplessness in the proccess eh ?
are you game to try ? we could have a "round robbin" of ideas and see what fits.  what ya think ?

Bob........

Quote from: BobSo Tinkerbell, can we run you over the coals some more ?  your tough enough to handle it, lets see why your dreams are so presistant shall we ?
it makes good practice ! <Grin!> and might help rid you of the sleeplessness in the proccess eh ?
are you game to try ? we could have a "round robbin" of ideas and see what fits.  what ya think ?

Bob........

Okay Mr. Bob, I'm game!  Yes I can handle most things

tinkerbell

  I try not to post unliess I both have something meaningful to say and secondly figure out a way to say what I want with out it being taken the wrong way.... Id say 1 out of every 5 posts I start actualy ended up posted LoL.    descrition is the better part of valor after all.

I try and not unload here on the forum <thats what chat is for LoL> but when I do I find your repplies to be so insightful so Thankyou Bob  *Hugs*  youve managed to bring a smile to my face durring some of the worst times.

Hi Bob.... I like the list.

I to have problems with No 4 -" Provide solutuons" for  a  number of reasons

(1) People don't always want solutions, they sometimes just want to talk and make their own opinions and solutions
(2) One persons solutions (i.e mine) may not be applicable to another person, however my experiences may be relevant
(3) Once you have given a solution a desperate person may put a lot of faith in this working (and the consequences of it not working?)
(4) Giving solutions to problems is a very male orientated trait, guys just see many things as having a defined answer, whereas
     women actually like just discussing, talking and empathizing rather than being told what to do.

I have done some counselloring work and it is vitally important to get the person to talk, open up (if they can) and offer advice (have you tried?, have you considered?, have you been etc? and then back these closed questions up with open ended questions "what do you think the effect would be if you tried doing this?"

So... agree with the majority of the list, but solutions must come from the person themselves, by getting them to explore the issues.

Listening, Empathizing, Understanding and staying detached are also key requirements, some of the people I have worked with, some of the posts I read are painful for me....

Rebecca

I had very frightening dreams as a child. I think the spirits in this world were having fun scary me. First I willed myself to wake up when I had a bad dream. Than I began blocking my dreams and so much so that now I may remember one or two dreams a month and usually only in the vaguest since. But I still believe that even the dreams that I can't remember still effect me at least subconsciously.
Oh I just did a Bob and got off topic. 

I believe empathy and sympathy are very important in helping people. Maybe even more important than trying to give than any answer we may be able to come up with.
Your right Bob if we have or are going through a similar thing than we are in a better procession to help. That is why I often don't post on some topics.

Jillieann

So Tinkerbell has a Rusty too!  How about that.  And I thought that my experience was so unique.

I have not written about the dreams where I was chased.  It too was a common occurance as I got older.  I was chased, they were after me.  I never knew who. But I would run and run. I would have to overcome various obstacles, devise new methods, to become a master of stealth.

Ultimately, they would chase me into a corner, or to the top of a building and at the last possible moment, I would do some death defying leap and wake up.

And the other common dream was that I had to get to school to take a test. And I could never get there.  I think that this type of dream is pretty common for many people.

Cindi

Oh WOW !
(em runs arround like a kid in a candy store! )
so many great responces its impossable for me to mention them all !
and there is no need I suppose ! ...
Buffy  you are absoultly correct... I am so glad you posted that ! thank you !
Yes your probly right it is a Male thing to find answers.... I feel deep in myself its my DUTY to do it ! <GRIN>
Lynn: I wish I had your restraint!... I start 5 posts and post 4... or 3 depending on my mood ! , I usually take a long time typeing my posts however.
makeing them "SOUND" like I talk, I think thats important. I can't get the voice inflection in type , but i can get alot of the other things like uncertanity, disbelief, confusion, and the like. 
I am realy glad for all the responces ! as I know we can all learn form this!
But Buffy is very correct in what she said. there is more than one method of helping.
Now Tink !
I am proud of you, you faced your fear enough to put it in type, that is quite abit you know !   that is a very good sign !
I Do not interpit dreams in the usual sense, I try to just figure them out.
and I have had alot of success with so doing, i 've just been lucky I suppose in that regard.
....
First I'ed say Running desperately to excape the baddie is very normal, thats usually how most nightmares are, its a basic instint to run from the unknown and usually not even a bad idea<grin>
I admit you had me worried that you may be talking about me chaseing you but I never ware colonge so I'm safe ! <whew!> hehehehehehe
as I said in a previous thred . Stop and FIGHT.... don't be a victome !
I felt this was the answer then and I still do... there are weppons all arround us all the time we just never notice them, time to pick up your awareness... though you don't need weppons... a Judo chop in the throat will stop anyone... don't forget that... and believe me I know first hand about a cornored animal is a DANGEROUS animal ! ... perhaps you need to take self defence clases Tink? maybe your mind is trying to tell you you are too defenceless ?.
... On the other hand the other nightmare is more disturbing, but you'll notice the two baddies are black, sillowettes as it were ? and a beast not a man, yet no beast like any other ?   makes me wonder if your Brother is still arround ?  alive and kicking so to speak ?  its almost as if You are responcable for his dissapearance here,  though you get no indication of that by the dream. its the context I think that leads me to that conclusion....
.... Any good garden has a double berrol shot gun by a post, its just not a good garden unless it has one there, if you have the dream again SHOOT the beast with both berrols....
....
I realy believe You are in victome mode... and your mind knows this... you need to change it into a diferent mode. to stop the re accureing dreams.
Now You'll note that my soulition wasn't a purdy one ... its bloody and nasty just like life !... but thats the point.  when Life is brutle to you it takes brutle responces to satisfy it.... sure you could take a feather and tickel the feet of your asselant untill he colapses in a heap... but its not realy practical in the real world, and thats what dreams are for... to run a "WHAT IF SENERIO of LIFE in front of you to see how you handle it !"
if your inner self is satisified with the answer you give it , it won't keep asking the same question over and over again .
.... so I'ed say You were not giving your subconsious mind a good answer for the above synierios... because they keep comeing back !
So , ( cleverly useing the threds sujestions)  what do you think the Responces SHOULD be to the first dream ? what should you do Realy ?
I ask this for a reason, because you have been hideing from the fear of the dream for so long that is probly all you see is the complete terror of it all.   Yet there should be an answer for it , your mind is clever, it will not give you a no way out siduation, it just looks that way at first !
....
Now The rest of you anilize Tinks dream and see what you come up with
good or bad, toss out your sujestions and lets see what we get.

Your a good Sport Tinkerbell <HUG> thank you !

....Bob........

Ahhh ! that makes more sense then !
Your mind is asking you "what if your brother isn't there to protect you ?"
Again.... its the Confidence in yourself ishue... can you protect yourself when in grave danger ?.... Your subconsious self wants to know the answer to this question, wants YOU to know the answer as well....so it throws the question up to you time and time again, because it is the question that realy made an impact upon you !  ( and it does doesn't it ? scares the liveing heck out of you  right   THATS what its FOR !!!!! )
.... another thing to understand about dreams is that anything in life that you can do is leagle in a dream.... and some times many things that arn't !
...  I'm not saying that a single person could take on the beast in your 2nd dream....  However there is alwayse a way to get yourself OUT OF DANGER....
usually this is all that is needed to get rid of the bad dream.

.....
Lets put this into  prospective....  if in real life you were in a garden
you and your brother, just playing arround , doing what ever... and all of a sudden this big ferocious beast appeared.... what would you realy do
... probly turn tail and run your little feet off RIGHT
that critter couldn't possably catch you you'ed be gone so fast !
or barring that You'ed be up a tree so fast  there would be bark all over the place......

but in the dream your protector is gone.... and its left up to you to protect YOURSELF !

you are standing there in confusion wondering where your brother went, and are missing the entire point of the exersize....  the beast is more or less waiting  for you to understand the sinerieo...( isn't that nice of him ?)
....
Now do you see whats going on here ?
its not just a bad dream.... its a learning exersize.... dreams teach you something.... even though you have enough to worry about in your wakeing life
your Subconsious mind is still hard at work trying to fix the weak spots in your charactor.... weather you want it to or not !
....
Now Don't be Mad at yourself for this, accept it and fix the problem and be done with it... when you have the dream again ... and you will reconize it when it comes.... take action....   " you know.... feet do your thing! "
Hesitation KILLS...and your subconsious mind knows this... get rid of the hesitation and you will loose the dream I bet ya !
.....
My 2 coppers!
Bob..........


ps.... I dunno whats up with the smilie faces ! I typed explination points ... not some disgruntled smilyface ! HEHEHEHEHHE !

Well Tink ...in all Honnesty this may or may not be the problem... I am just Guessing... but it sounds reasonable to me ... and the subconsious mind is verry reasonable, and literal to the extream...
knowing this... information is one thing, doing something about your nightmares is something else altogather.... but it is usually so stright foward, uncomplicated and blaintanty simple... that my feble mind can grasp it fairly easy ! hehehehheh.... you gott'a remember I have been doing this all my life with my own dreams.... trying to figure them out... and it realy all boils down to a learning session.... "a what if sinerio"... the more serious ones and there for the more important ones have alot more emotions pumped into them.
....
when I was a young brat, about 3 or 4 yrs old I remember my sister having night terrors... and i use the term properly as they were simply terrorizeing her to no end....3:00am in the morning she would wake the entire house with her screams of terror, a robot was gomeing to get her... there was a big robot a short robot and a robot dog too... and they were walking down the hall way between the bedrooms and were comeing to get her... Mom and I set up with her one night , i fell asleep waiting but soon she started fussing and mom was telling her that there was nothing there, it was just the headlights of the passing cars comeing in the windows and reflecting off the tinfoil on the hall way heater.....but she denied it... they were so very real to her it scared me ...  i then got up and walked out into the hall slowly cautiously.
my sister was screaming for me to come back as they would get me !... but there was indeed nothing there...nothing but the sparkel of the lights in the timfoil on the heater.... if we turned on the lights my sister said the robots went zoom up into the atic.... she had it all figured out.... the problem was it just wasn't true....... I told Mom there is only the car lights reflecting on the tim foil....and I could see the "OOOOOH thats what it is" in my mothers bloodshot eyes.  she turned on the lights , removed the tinfoil and distroyied the robots once and for all........ though this wasn't a dream it was just LIKE a dream... our senses play tricks on us all the time
and we must learn when and where to trust them....
...i will admit ...walking into that hallway when I was young was a hard scary thing to do.... when my sister was screaming "no don't!" and cowering in the cornor of her bed as far away from the open door as she could get...
it hit me ...what if she is right and I just can't see them ?....but reason took over and said How possable is that ? ....not very so lets show Sis that its not real....  i walked out there and Sis was amazed ..I walked through the robots ! ... still scared whitless...but now courious, how can this be ?
so i ran back and sat on her bed and said see ? its ok sis ! but she wasn't buying it ! Mom asked her what she saw..to describe it carefully...and she did.... and I followed her discription as i looked at the reflection in the tinfoil in the heater ... the biggest solid reflection was the body, the part above that was his head.... it looks dented and dammaged....  the long thing on the side is his arm , can't you see it ? hes comeing this way..."scream"
and just then a car would go by makeing the reflections move... thats when I realised it was the reflections .. I told Mom... and mom went and removed the tinfoil.... we sat in the dark for a good 2 hrs after that trying to see those robots but never did .... later I remember Mom telling Dad that it was the reflection of the tinfoil in the heater.... and they sort'a laughed about it ..... Kids !   and shrugged it off to experience and let it go at that !

....I wanted so bad to see through my sisters eyes that night , to see what she see's ... but only my amagination could get close...

  She believed beyond a shadow of a doubt those robots were REAL.... yet in reality they didn't even exhist....  that is a paradox if you think about it.
....
  Our dreams are nothing to be afrade of eather, because they realy do not exhist except for in your head...  it is YOU that makes them real.
it is also You that can make them Unreal again....

...
  No matter what the problem is in life that you are faceing at the time
a few more view points always helps to see the problem diferently.
  two heads are better than one in this respect !
I hope it helps Tink , because I know those dreams are not fun !
.... <HUG> !
haing in there !
Bob.........