Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 06:27:44 PM
The transsexual will transition.  The transsexual that is so desperate to do the, "do or die" mentality either has doubts or is not a true transsexual, and is only doing so because he/she wants an escape, "the grass is greener on the other end of the fence" kind of thing.
The true transsexual, will know that it will transition, and will happily await that day.  It will be a natural thing, an joyous path, and taken so it can then enjoy the rest of life as a transsexual, instead of getting done with transition and sitting around thinking, "what now?"
That's my opinion!

Hmmmmmm...  Some very good points Annwyn.  Personally I subscribe to the following definition of Transition (Yep I'm into definitions)

QuoteTransitioning is the process of ceasing to live in one gender role and starting to live in another, undertaken by transgender and transsexual people.

Transitioning usually happens before any sex reassignment surgery, and in some cases even before any hormone replacement therapy. Transitioning often marks the start of the real life experience which is usually required for SRS.

Many people also use the term 'transitioning' to refer to the entire transgender/transsexual process (from living 24/7 in the original gender role to after surgery). The beginning of the real life experience is then often called 'going fulltime' (i.e. starting to live 24/7 in the opposite gender role).

Transitioning can involve sex reassignment therapy, name changes, wearing clothing seen as gender appropriate or the use of make-up, and generally coming out of the Closet.

It is unfortunate indeed that some TS are so desperate that they will do anything or die trying.  I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria and I tried unsuccessfully several times, so I guess I would fall into your definition in that I was/am desperate enough and would have died trying.  Sooooooooo... I guess based on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS.  I must be something else.    Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled

I can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path".  When will you know when "that day" arrives?

My last point is that when I have transitioned I will not be enjoying my life as a transsexual but as a woman, a woman I have always been.  Which seems to contradict your thinking that transition is a way of life whereas I see transition as a process.  (But then I've been wrong before - I thought I was wrong once, but I was simply mistaken)

Steph

Quote from: Steph on August 31, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria

Me too, but it was also from other depressions.

Quotebased on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS.  I must be something else.    Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled

Eh, no you're not.  Now you're a woman, not a TS:-p

QuoteI can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path".  When will you know when "that day" arrives?

The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO.  It will then be happy that it is doing something toward transition, and when it does transition it will simply be letting itself out.

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 07:51:33 PM

Quote from: Steph on August 31, 2006, 07:44:57 PM
I self mutilated in my attempts to cure my dysphoria

Me too, but it was also from other depressions.

Quotebased on that I must have doubts or I am not a true TS.  I must be something else.    Darn, I wish I had known that before my SRS had been scheduled

Eh, no you're not.  Now you're a woman, not a TS :-p

QuoteI can agree to a point that a true TS will know that they will transition, but what do you mean by "happily await that day" and "that it will be a natural thing, a joyous path".  When will you know when "that day" arrives?

The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO.  It will then be happy that it is doing something toward transition, and when it does transition it will simply be letting itself out.

Aha now I see, and I agree.

Steph

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 07:51:33 PM...
The true transsexual will be so determined to transition it will simply DO.
...

Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.


P.s. why 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things.

Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 08:46:10 PM
Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.

No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person.  The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is.  The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success.  Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope.  "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself.  That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.

Quotewhy 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things.

I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format.  Considering "transsexual" can mean a male who wants to be a female, or a female that wants to be a male, OR a female "trapped" in a man's body, or a man "trapped" in a woman's body, it's simply much easier to use a gender neutral term instead of typing, "he/she" ever single time.  If I were to say, "he" to a MtF, it would be offended, but I couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I?  I reserve pronouns concerning transsexuals only by how much effort has been put into it.  I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it.  Kate, as much as SHE has the heart, has only earned it by heart, which is very rare to me.
But yeah, don't take offense.  It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!
[/quote]

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM
I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it.

Aw, thanks.

Melissa

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM...
No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person.  The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is.  The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success.  Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope.  "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself.  That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.
...

It is prudent to not confuse incapability with unwillingness. That aside though. I agree that "Do or die" is not transsexualism. BUT, I do think it can be seen as 'so determined'. Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.


Interesting point of view

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM...
I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format.
...It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!
...

I figured something like that.

Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
That aside though. I agree that "Do or die" is not transsexualism. BUT, I do think it can be seen as 'so determined'. Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.

The point is that it's impatience, rather than determination.  It's not so much do it or die, but "do it NOW or die" that can really bad.  I saw it more as transition, misery, or death and I didn't want the last 2 options.  

Melissa

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM

Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 08:46:10 PM
Is that not kind of like "do or die"? I.e. do, or die trying to do. Sometimes that DO part isn't simple and that is where the die part comes in.

No.
The transsexual is not an unhappy person.  The desperation that adds the, "die" part is caused by the individual's incapability to live as it is.  The transsexual is capable of living, and hence stable enough to be assured of the transition and its success.  Confidence doesn't know despair, despair doesn't know hope.  "Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself.  That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.

Quotewhy 'it' to describe a transsexual? Some take offense to that by the by, and technically proper English would be to refer to that group as 'they', at least as I understand things.

I was referring to the transsexual in a third person format.  Considering "transsexual" can mean a male who wants to be a female, or a female that wants to be a male, OR a female "trapped" in a man's body, or a man "trapped" in a woman's body, it's simply much easier to use a gender neutral term instead of typing, "he/she" ever single time.  If I were to say, "he" to a MtF, it would be offended, but I couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I?  I reserve pronouns concerning transsexuals only by how much effort has been put into it.  I think people like Melissa and many others on this site(specifically her) have very much earned it.  Kate, as much as SHE has the heart, has only earned it by heart, which is very rare to me.
But yeah, don't take offense.  It's specifically designed to NOT give offense!

[/quote]


I was an unhappy person as a guy, not as a transsexual. It was being a guy, I couldn't cope with,once I accepted that being labelled "transsexual" wasn't an issue.

I think use of a gender neutral term is an important step in transition. I guess there is a point in everyones journey that as part of the metamorphis from changing gender, we go through a phase when we can appear (to others) as neither one or the other (dressing androgynous for instance, changing voice).

I know at that time people where confused and I got called by every pronoun and to an extent even I was confused as to what I should be refered to, so gender neutral pronouns such as "they" seemed to fit the bill.

Now, 4 years post op, I am simply a woman, thats the only label that matters, because it is the only one I ever wanted.

Buffy

Quote from: Annwyn on August 31, 2006, 09:10:07 PM"Do or die" is not transsexualism, it's recognition of inadequacy of the gender being occupied, and of life itself. That's a depressed person, not a determined transsexual.

Depression can often be the result of TSism. I think this goes back to you can't put the genie back in the bottle; once a person realizes that the gender he or she is living in is all wrong, the drive is there to make the change and any roadblock or going backwards might result in a "do or die" mindset.

QuoteI couldn't well refer to a MtF who hasn't taken any feminizing action as a "she" now could I?

Whyever not?

As far as pronouns go, there's not just "he or she" and "s/he" but also ze (hir) and em (ey, eir). I suppose "they" as a gender neutral singular is okay, given that the pronoun "you" used to be strictly plural (and now we have "y'all", "youse", and "yinz").

Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.

Yes but Kim, "Do or Die" is not throwing it all away to get there, but simple throwing it all away because you can't get there immediately, even though half the time it's your own fault(not yours, just using 2nd person).
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 04:47:03 PM

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Quote from: umop ap!sdn on September 01, 2006, 01:00:28 PM
Depression can often be the result of TSism. I think this goes back to you can't put the genie back in the bottle; once a person realizes that the gender he or she is living in is all wrong, the drive is there to make the change and any roadblock or going backwards might result in a "do or die" mindset.

No... thta's not the common mentality of many transsexuals that was being referred to.

Quote from: Annwyn on September 01, 2006, 03:49:16 PM

Quote from: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
Simply put when you are willing to throw it all away to get there... well, that seems pretty determined to me.

Yes but Kim, "Do or Die" is not throwing it all away to get there, but simple throwing it all away because you can't get there immediately, even though half the time it's your own fault(not yours, just using 2nd person).

Ah, alright I think I understand. Ironically we are basically saying the same thing.

For instance when I say "transition or death" I am not saying transition right now or I'll take my bucket and shovel and go home, rather that there is no other acceptable outcome. I.e. I would rather be dead than something else basically. To me, there is no time frame specified.


Points of view are fun and interesting things

I might have gotten my panties in a bunch here, but I do not like for anyone to refer to anyone else as an "it". Call them by a name or something that has a human touch to it. It is so monster like. Another word I dislike is eunich. I won't go into that one
Sheila

You probably don't like eunuch, because it is essentially a male without genitals, but they are still a man.

Melissa

Quote from: Sheila on September 01, 2006, 05:14:54 PM
I might have gotten my panties in a bunch here, but I do not like for anyone to refer to anyone else as an "it". Call them by a name or something that has a human touch to it. It is so monster like. Another word I dislike is eunich. I won't go into that one

Oh well, your panties are in a bunch, I'll keep my g-sting tight and use a proper term so nothing can be argued.  Just as I'd call an unspecified human indivudual, or an intelligent dolphin, or the CREATOR, "It," I'll call a transsexual, "It" as well unless it's an IDENTIFIED person and will then refer to them as the pronoun I find appropriate, such as you would be a "she" but the little ->-bleeped-<- crossdressing in private is very much going to be referred by its birth gender by me until it has EARNED usage of the other pronouns.
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 06:46:31 PM

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Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 05:28:37 PM
You probably don't like eunuch, because it is essentially a male without genitals, but they are still a man.

SOOO....
A male who removes his genitals is still considered male?
OOOOH goody...
I could start some hell on these forums like that:-p
But I'll be a good girl, and I'll keep my devious mouth shut right now... as hard as it is>.<

Quote from: Annwyn on September 01, 2006, 05:48:18 PM
SOOO....
A male who removes his genitals is still considered male?
OOOOH goody...
I could start some hell on these forums like that:-p
But I'll be a good girl, and I'll keep my devious mouth shut right now... as hard as it is>.<

I never said he removed them.  I said a "male without genitals".  Try telling a transitioned non-op FtM they aren't male.   Again, you can't define a man or a woman by genitals alone.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 05:55:05 PM
you can't define a man or a woman by genitals alone.

Eh, I don't think I'd have a problem with it, except for this whole "mental identity" thing.
Honestly, I'm still not comfortable being referred to as, "female" when I havn't done a thing to deserve the title.

Ah, that's where mental transition and self-acceptance come in.  I know it is working towards "earning the title", but when you can completely see youself as male or female, it makes it sure changes how you feel when somebody referes to you as a gender you don't identify as.  When I first started transitioning, it didn't bug me if somebody called me male and felt a little weird when referred to as female.  After some time, I was able to accept who I was and that sure changed my perceptions.  Eventually I was cringing whenever somebody said "sir" (which didn't happen often at that point).  Really, calling somebody by the gender they identify as is more a matter of respect and courtesy than anything.

Melissa

I don't consider myself a eunuch as I am a woman. A woman can not be a eunuch. These were men, noted men, who were castrated so they wouldn't get any ideas in the harem. They kept their penis. A FtoM is not considered a eunuch either as they are men who have testosterone going through their bodies and they are very viril. I wouldn't let some of them stand over the harem, unless I was in there. It would be like letting the fox protect the hen house.
If a crossdresser was all dressed up and ready to go out, I would difinately call her a she and use the fem pronoun. However she is expressed is how I would address her or him. I would use a little respect.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on September 01, 2006, 07:33:49 PM
I don't consider myself a eunuch as I am a woman. A woman can not be a eunuch. These were men, noted men, who were castrated so they wouldn't get any ideas in the harem. They kept their penis. A FtoM is not considered a eunuch either as they are men who have testosterone going through their bodies and they are very viril. I wouldn't let some of them stand over the harem, unless I was in there. It would be like letting the fox protect the hen house.
If a crossdresser was all dressed up and ready to go out, I would difinately call her a she and use the fem pronoun. However she is expressed is how I would address her or him. I would use a little respect.
Sheila

atta girl!

What is an eunuch?


tinkerbell