Quote from: Rana on September 01, 2006, 08:45:58 AM
I would love to look and sound and move as a woman, a graceful smooth body, and with the added bonus of being able to dress elegantly - but underneath it all I dont really wish to stop being a man.
What does this make me- some sort of fraud, or just confused & anxious??   I dunno

Fraud?  No.  It means that you just need to continue being who you are.

Melissa
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 08:24:17 AM

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Quote from: Rana on September 01, 2006, 09:09:09 AM
Laughs.  Annwyn I'll have you know that I can play the role of a man quite well   its just that I want to express that  extra dimension, and I envy the look and role women get to play (well maybe not all aspects.  My wife told me that when she reached puberty & was faced with the reality of menstration, she regretted not being a boy)

Geez who am I kidding - I play the role very well,  the reality is a different matter - and I know that there are those that can see right through the sham

As far as I understand, I think that would make you a crossdresser.  Maybe I'm wrong?

Melissa

I think if you went and surveyed a million people, trans and non-trans, gay and straight, from different cultures and upbringings and whatnot, each would have a different view of what a man or woman truly is. Do we know what makes a man or woman? Not necessarily. If you want to bring it down to just anatomy, sure, it's easy to see the distinction. But when there are men like Michael Jackson, and women like Janet Reno (no offense to any of their admirers, but...) I don't think it's really possible to say there's only one way to be male and one way to be female.

In my opinion, it's what you believe you are that makes the difference. Yeah, transgender individuals' upbringing might raise more questions than most, but if what we believe we are is male or female, despite what our physical appearances say to the contrary, that's who we are! If we're in between, we're in between. I don't recall anyone having said it was absolutely necessary to identify strictly as one or the other. I'm FtM, and am pretty darned masculine, despite my anatomy, and my brother, who is all male, is far more feminine than I (and straight, as far as I'm aware). Nobody conforms to the norm... if we all did, the world would be a really boring place.

Rafe

Genitals are only an indicator of our gender.  They are not what defines it.  Just like the bright feathers on a male peacock are an indicator that it's male, or the mane on a male lion.  These are used to help tell the gender, but they are not what makes it male or female.

Melissa

Quote from: Rafe on September 01, 2006, 12:36:43 PM
I think if you went and surveyed a million people, trans and non-trans, gay and straight, from different cultures and upbringings and whatnot, each would have a different view of what a man or woman truly is.

Exactly! It's a fun and educational question to ponder, but ultimately there is no single, definitive answer. There never will be.

In the end, we're left to define it for ourselves - which might be what this whole TSism mess is about: we don't quite fit our own self-definition, and we're struggling to adapt as best we can.

Quote from: Kate on September 01, 2006, 01:06:23 PM
In the end, we're left to define it for ourselves - which might be what this whole TSism mess is about: we don't quite fit our own self-definition, and we're struggling to adapt as best we can.

Or, were trying to figure out exactly what that definition is at the same time we're adapting to it.

Melissa

Quote from: DawnL on August 31, 2006, 05:31:21 PMBut I wonder, am I really a woman? I'm not certain. I know I'm not a man. I've always known that. The binary only allows for two choices.

It's like you read my mind.  Personally, I often feel "not entitled" to apply the label of "woman" to myself.

Thinking back to my early years, I remember how I saw myself and can picture the girl I should have been. Yet back then I could never admit to that. She got pushed into the background and was never allowed out. She's grown up now, and I think if I had not been given preconceived notions about what I was but rather allowed to define myself on my own, there wouldn't even be an issue now.

(Your picture looks really good, BTW. )

Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 12:42:26 PMGenitals are only an indicator of our gender.

Some people's indicators need recalibrating. 

I read that transgendered people often hold stricter ideas of male vs. female than non-T people...  This issue seems to be a good example.  Not that there's anything wrong with it, and I know I do it too, I just thought I'd throw it out there...  It seems like an issue taht you can question all your life and never have a definitive answer for, so I guess it's one of those things I try not to worry about.  Maybe I'll figure it out on my deathbed at age 135 and die enlightened

Quote from: Mikko on September 01, 2006, 02:00:09 PM
Maybe I'll figure it out on my deathbed at age 135 and die enlightened

Heh... as with enlightenment, sometimes I think we question the most that which we already know/are - yet don't feel we deserve it somehow...

Quote from: Kate on September 01, 2006, 02:06:34 PM

Quote from: Mikko on September 01, 2006, 02:00:09 PM
Maybe I'll figure it out on my deathbed at age 135 and die enlightened

Heh... as with enlightenment, sometimes I think we question the most that which we already know/are - yet don't feel we deserve it somehow...

Huh.  Then maybe the reason I don't ponder it quite so much is because I'm the kind of egomaniac who does feel enititled.

Quote from: Mikko on September 01, 2006, 02:16:36 PM
Huh.  Then maybe the reason I don't ponder it quite so much is because I'm the kind of egomaniac who does feel enititled.

Ha ha, me too.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 03:11:15 PM

Quote from: Mikko on September 01, 2006, 02:16:36 PM
Huh.  Then maybe the reason I don't ponder it quite so much is because I'm the kind of egomaniac who does feel enititled.

Ha ha, me too.

*pout*

You kids got any self-assurance to spare for an insecure, genderless girl?

Sure, and we've been trying to dish it out in spades to you, but it never seems to help.  Well, maybe a little.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 03:28:18 PM
Sure, and we've been trying to dish it out in spades to you, but it never seems to help.  Well, maybe a little.

Oh it helped... much more than a *little* too

Really though, after a few hundred posts of mine, the whole "am I REALLY a woman?" thing just kinda became too exhausting for me. It's not so much that I doubt I'm "really" female, as just deciding that the question is kindofa moot point. Even if I'm "really a man" somehow, it doesn't change the fact that for whatever reason I'm desperate to be female. And satisying THAT definition seems to be more biological or psychological than philosophical for me. I don't know quite what it'll take to do it, but I'm gonna find out

Quote from: Rana on September 01, 2006, 09:09:09 AM
Laughs.  Annwyn I'll have you know that I can play the role of a man quite well   its just that I want to express that  extra dimension, and I envy the look and role women get to play (well maybe not all aspects.  My wife told me that when she reached puberty & was faced with the reality of menstration, she regretted not being a boy)

Geez who am I kidding - I play the role very well,  the reality is a different matter - and I know that there are those that can see right through the sham

I'll have you know, there are MANY people who will the male me passing away... simply because I'm such a heartthrob as a boy, and no kidding!
BUT ALAS!
I'll be even more fun as a girl!
Posted on: September 01, 2006, 04:54:10 PM

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Quote from: Melissa on September 01, 2006, 12:42:26 PM
Genitals are only an indicator of our gender.  They are not what defines it.  Just like the bright feathers on a male peacock are an indicator that it's male, or the mane on a male lion.  These are used to help tell the gender, but they are not what makes it male or female.

Only MALE lions have manes.
Only MALE peacocks have bright feathers.
Only MALES have penises, and intersexuals.  So therefore, maned lion=male lion and male lion=maned lion.  just like penis=male and male=penis.
The brain is a whole other issue.

QuoteOnly MALE lions have manes.
Only MALE peacocks have bright feathers.
Only MALES have penises, and intersexuals.  So therefore, maned lion=male lion and male lion=maned lion.  just like penis=male and male=penis.
The brain is a whole other issue.

Doesn't follow logically for a number of reasons.

Only males and intersex people have penises does not make penis and male equivalent.

And, not all males have penises. In addition to accident, surgical intervention (cancer, eg), there is also androgen insensitivity syndrome, although I don't know whether people with AIS all define as male, female, or some as male and some as female.

The problem is you haven't defined what male is either. Is it hormones? In which case I am male. Is it genetics? In which case I don't know what I am, because I've never had my chromosomes tested. Is it behaviours? Which ones? Clothing?

If your definition is as simplistic as gender = genitals, then yes, your statement that male = penis is simplistically true. Gender is in fact much more complex than that and we are more than our body parts. If there was a universal correlation between genitals and the complex set of behaviours, thoughts, genetics, and hormones, then you could make that statement and it would be correct. But the fact that the people on this site exist and we are not congruent with all of our systems says that it is incorrect. There is not a universal correlation. As you say, the brain is a whole other issue, but the brain is part of your body. Why are you defining people by the visible parts of their bodies and not all of their bodies?

It seems to me that self-identity is the only way to have a workable system. If you feel male, you are male.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on September 01, 2006, 04:22:43 PM

QuoteOnly MALE lions have manes.
Only MALE peacocks have bright feathers.
Only MALES have penises, and intersexuals.  So therefore, maned lion=male lion and male lion=maned lion.  just like penis=male and male=penis.
The brain is a whole other issue.

Doesn't follow logically for a number of reasons.

Only males and intersex people have penises does not make penis and male equivalent.

And, not all males have penises. In addition to accident, surgical intervention (cancer, eg), there is also androgen insensitivity syndrome, although I don't know whether people with AIS all define as male, female, or some as male and some as female.

The problem is you haven't defined what male is either. Is it hormones? In which case I am male. Is it genetics? In which case I don't know what I am, because I've never had my chromosomes tested. Is it behaviours? Which ones? Clothing?

If your definition is as simplistic as gender = genitals, then yes, your statement that male = penis is simplistically true. Gender is in fact much more complex than that and we are more than our body parts. If there was a universal correlation between genitals and the complex set of behaviours, thoughts, genetics, and hormones, then you could make that statement and it would be correct. But the fact that the people on this site exist and we are not congruent with all of our systems says that it is incorrect. There is not a universal correlation. As you say, the brain is a whole other issue, but the brain is part of your body. Why are you defining people by the visible parts of their bodies and not all of their bodies?

It seems to me that self-identity is the only way to have a workable system. If you feel male, you are male.

Dennis

I think Annwyn was referring to physical born sex, not gender.  But this also stresses my point.  From all outward appearances, the person can appear male, because that's what it indicates, but the brain being a whole other issue may be completely different, which is what defines us.

Melissa

But even physical born sex isn't that simple for a significant minority of people. You can't just factor them out of the equation.

Dennis

I know what you mean Dennis.  Again, that stresses my point.  They are only indicators.

Quote
indicate

–verb (used with object), -cated, -cating.
1. to be a sign of; betoken; evidence; show: His hesitation really indicates his doubt about the venture. 
2. to point out or point to; direct attention to: to indicate a place on a map. 
3. to show, as by measuring or recording; make known: The thermometer indicates air temperature. 
4. to state or express, esp. briefly or in a general way; signal: He indicated his disapproval but did not go into detail. 
5. Medicine/Medical. a. (of symptoms) to point out (a particular remedy, treatment, etc.) as suitable or necessary. 
b. to show the presence of (a condition, infection, etc.). 

In other words, the genitals are a sign that the person is one sex or the other.  It doesn't mean they are that.  If you have a lump in your breast, it's an indicator that you may have cancer, but that doesn't mean you do.  Same thing.  Ambiguous genitals just don't indicate one way or the other.

Melissa

Quote from: Annwyn on September 01, 2006, 08:48:34 AM
Good good, a TS with a reality check and who's not only one because she's failing miserably as a man!

I've met many failures for sure.  But you won't find one in my closet   I've known many who have been very successful in both roles.  But in reality, as men, we did fail at something.  Otherwise, why did we change ourselves?  Why did we give up beautiful families and brilliant careers?  Or perhaps, maybe the failure wasn't a failure at all, perhaps it was another step up to another plateau?  We are successful because of raw determination.  No one can pull us down or keep us from moving forward.  Society's success may be a fleeting thing. We grow and learn, we face and conquer challenges.  "Success" is such a static thing. Some reach it and die.  But the journey, the constant challenge, the winning.  That's life my friend.

Cindi

Cindi, I wouldn't measure success by gender but what I have accomplished in my life. I have a very beautiful woman on my side and I have a wonderful family to boot. I'm retired with a home that is paid for and I don't count my monetary success, but I have had a very successful career and the only draw back that I have felt that is I didn't do it with a F on my drivers license. I have transitioned very successful and other people think that I must be doing something wrong as I don't face any discrimination to speak of, no more than when I had a penis. Success is in the eye of the beholder and it could mean a lot of things for different people. Some of us here on Susans are very successful and I include you.
Sheila