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Difference between transsexual and transgender (not sure where to post this)

Started by djknyht, September 24, 2009, 11:21:59 PM

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Calistine

I am a transsexual. I was born female and I identify as male. However, I do consider myself transgender to some extent because I have characteristics of both and I know that gender binary does not work for everyone so I respect the people who identify as something other than male or female.
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Arch

My old Webster's defines the prefix trans- in various ways:  on the other side of, to the other side of, over, across, through, so as to change thoroughly, above and beyond.

Terms like sex, gender, male, and female can be very problematic. So please forgive me if I'm not using the terms in the same way you do. Or, indeed, the same way the experts do. Many use the term "male" to refer to sex organs only, but that makes it difficult to talk about brain sex or gender in meaningful ways.

When I was pre-transition, part of my body was female and the other part, my brain, had at least some male elements--in my gender identification, if nothing else. In this respect, I could truly call myself transgender because my own body was an amalgam that went above and beyond the sex/gender binary.

I like to say that I have always been a boy, always been male, but that's in reference to the gender identification in my brain. My body did not follow suit.

Now that I am sort of post-transition--I'm presenting as male, accepted as male, and legally male--I still have to think about hysto and possibly bottom surgery. This makes me different from a guy who has had both, and it makes me not quite analogous to an MTF who has had bottom surgery.

What we transsexuals all seem to have in common, pre-op and post-op and non-op and everyone in the middle, is that we were raised in a gender that is inconsistent with our identification, and that our brains and bodies still bear the indelible imprint of our originally having the wrong hormones and sexual equipment. This includes the influence of hormones on the brain.

Therefore, I feel that if we use the term "transgender" in the broadest sense, we can successfully apply it to any transsexual, even one who is completely post-op.

The problem here is that some people don't identify themselves that way, perhaps because we don't usually use "transgender" in such a broad sense. What if a person I would normally label as transgender says that she is manifestly NOT transgender? Once I find out that she feels this way, I would be bound to honor her wishes and try to remember not to identify her that way. However, I might privately still think of her that way even if I never say it out loud. Why? Because she has a trans history. So how, if the situation arises, should I accurately identify that trans history without using the word "transgender"? I certainly don't want to offend her or label her in a way that she finds offensive. And some post-ops object to the term "transsexual." I can see why they do, but how do I acknowledge their trans history without being offensive to them?

The umbrella term can be very useful. I'm well aware that not everyone likes it or uses it. But would they feel more comfortable with it if it were broader? Or will it always be problematic? What if we think of the prefix "trans-" as meaning "through" or "above and beyond"? Does that make the term "transgender" more palatable, or does it just muddy the water?

Do we need an umbrella term at all? (I personally like it, but that's just me...)
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Nicky

It is interesting to see that the people that reject the term transgender often take it to mean changing gender just as transexual means changing sex. But trans can also alludes to you being different from the expectated behaviour and gender identity of your birth sex. I think that is the line it takes as an umbrella term.

Could the vehament rejection of the term transgender come from not wanting to be associated with cross-dressers or 'fetishists' who seem to have a greater stigma attached to them within the 'trans' community? I think this has a lot to do with it, to be associated withe them somehow leads to the perception of being less valid.

I would be interested to know what someone like Matilda would have described themselves as being before SRS? They wern't transgender and they wern't transexual by their own definition as they had not changed sex at that stage.

I think Transgender is a useful term.

Interestingly I would be a transexual by the definition used on this site though I am not a man or a woman. I don't identify as such but I fit the bill.
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Arch

Quote from: Matilda on September 27, 2009, 07:26:48 PM
As for what Arch said.  Arch, I don't mind being called a woman born transsexual or a woman with a transsexual history, but that's just me.  There are many people on here that do not want any association with the term transsexual either, and if this site professes support and respect towards self-identification as it seems it does, then I think that these people's wishes should be respected; otherwise, let's not complain when flame wars start or when other identities are challenged.

Yeah, I manifestly want to avoid disrespecting people and charging up flamethrowers. I want to fully understand where other folks are coming from; if I have to label them, I want to do it in a way that they accept and welcome. But when I talk about a lot of us as a group, I tend to use labels like "trans" to refer to us, all of us, even people like you, Matilda. Is that disrespectful or just annoying? I like "trans" because people can read it either way, as meaning transgender or transsexual. But for those who feel that they are no longer trans-anything, well, am I dissing them? That's why I suggested that broadening the definition of "transgender" might be a partial solution.

It's not a simple thing, navigating all of this.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Nicky

If transexual refers to a brain body mismatch, then transgender can refer to a body brain missmatch too don't you think (as in your gender is trans to your body rather than your sex is trans to your gender(brain)? No worries about wanting to specify how you want to be identified, I think everyone has the right to self identify, just wondering at the logic of it.

I often hear people saying that you are not transexual untill you have had SRS. I assumed you were thinking the same thing so it seemed like no term could apply. Sorry about that Matilda.

I would just like to remind everyone that advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term is against the terms of service of this site. It might not be your personal belief but this is how we use it here. Probably best if we just stay away from this line of argument.

Cheers
Nicky


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HelenW

Here's an interesting essay on labels and identities from Dyssonance that might provide a fresh look at the subject:

http://www.dyssonance.com/?p=490

I don't necessarily agree with all of her conclusions but I think she points out some pertinent facts that tend to get lost in these discussions.

hugs & smiles
Emelye
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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finewine

I sometimes feel the distinctions drawn between "sex" and "gender" are somewhat arbitrary. Surely, ones gender is a gestalt entity?  An amalgam of the anatomical, biological, physiological and the mental (which is itself an emergent property of the biological, dualism not withstanding).  I reject the idea that one can carve off one or more subsets of this amalgam to support an arbitrary distinction.

I believe this amalgam is precisely why there is a gender continuum and, therefore, I also reject the idea of a "pure" sex/gender binary.  Any attempt to do so would force one to look at all the component aspects and unless someone has found a way to change their genetic structure, everyone remains "trans*" in some way from the gestalt perspective.

Mind you, I'm still not sure what the significance of this issue is anyway, beyond individual sensitivities.  What a storm in a teacup! :)

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Inphyy

When it comes to the Transgendered/Sexual areas of this forum; I post in both of them...I know some trans might not like it when I say this; But I just fuse both terms into one! So even though I will go through surgery, I use the title of both transgendered/sexual...

Shame on me! LOL!
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sweetstars

Quote from: Matilda on September 27, 2009, 11:10:38 AM
Transgender is too broad a term, and in my case it's a designation that is confusing since it doesn't describe my experiences correctly.  I'm a woman that was born with a transsexual condition (brain and body mismatch).  I've already had that corrected through HRT and SRS, and today I'm simply a woman without any prefixes, modifiers or qualifiers attached to my womanhood.   

Furthermore, the term Transgender seems to imply that I have "changed or transgressed genders", which is totally untrue and misleading.  I've never "changed or transgressed genders".  My gender has always been FEMALE.  What I have changed is my physical sex NOT my gender.

Having said that, I will say this again:  I'm not transgender, I never was, nor will I ever be.




I agree with much of this statement.

Also the person who stated that the problem with the term transgender has to do with the inclusiveness of CD, fetish folks, and Drag is dead on, that association RIGHTFULLY bothers alot of women who have transitioned.  I don't want to be associated with folks who identify with thier assigned birth sex, no matter what clothing they decide to wear.  To me there is a big prove it factor, either you have transition (or plan to transition) or don't bother with me.  To me trans does not mean "transgress", rather it means transition. Transitioning ones sex is something one does, not who the person is.  (Another thing, I detest the MtF/FtM terminology as well. 

The umbrella term bothers me quite a bit, and the fact is I want no part of most of the others in the umbrella.  To me transitioning sex is something one does, and there is an end point.  Its also a medical condition, not some political identity.  My medical condition has nothing to with thier desire to wear different clothing.

The very fact I was born intersex makes the terminology bother me even more.  To me there needs to be a clean break in terms of terminology.  It is to confusing.  There is a significant number of women who transitioned who want no part of the term transgender.  Its time to say that transsexual is seperate from transgender.  That transitioning ones sex does not belong, nor it should belong in the same umbrella, in any way shape or form as somebody who crossdresses. 

It is time to end the umbrella terminology.

I am NOT transgender. 
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Miniar

I always thought of the term "transgender" to mean that your personal gender identity (in my case, A bloke who happens to be a bit on the feminine side) doesn't align with the gender role that society imposes on you (in my case, a woman, what with having a pair of breasts and a vagina and all).

The fact that I'm a transsexual simply means, to me, that I am unable to live with the incongruence between my physical sex and my brain sex. It's a completely different thing, yes, but I still fit under the transgender umbrella because my gender identity doesn't align with the gender role I'm given.
Perhaps, after transition, if society stops imposing on me a gender role that doesn't align with my gender identity, then I will stop considering myself transgender, same as some of you think of yourselves as women with a transsexual history, I would consider myself a man with a trans (no added nothing) history. (Though I'll probably always apply the word transsexual to me as a reminder that I've transcended the limitations I was born with and made my own life mine own.)

Either way, I think that treating a word like it's "the plague" only gives it added value.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Natasha

Quote from: Matilda on September 27, 2009, 11:10:38 AM
Transgender is too broad a term, and in my case it's a designation that is confusing since it doesn't describe my experiences correctly.  I'm a woman that was born with a transsexual condition (brain and body mismatch).  I've already had that corrected through HRT and SRS, and today I'm simply a woman without any prefixes, modifiers or qualifiers attached to my womanhood.   

Furthermore, the term Transgender seems to imply that I have "changed or transgressed genders", which is totally untrue and misleading.  I've never "changed or transgressed genders".  My gender has always been FEMALE.  What I have changed is my physical sex NOT my gender.

Having said that, I will say this again:  I'm not transgender, I never was, nor will I ever be.







Quote from: sweetstars on September 28, 2009, 07:55:45 AM
Also the person who stated that the problem with the term transgender has to do with the inclusiveness of CD, fetish folks, and Drag is dead on, that association RIGHTFULLY bothers alot of women who have transitioned.  I don't want to be associated with folks who identify with thier assigned birth sex, no matter what clothing they decide to wear.  To me there is a big prove it factor, either you have transition (or plan to transition) or don't bother with me.  To me trans does not mean "transgress", rather it means transition. Transitioning ones sex is something one does, not who the person is.  (Another thing, I detest the MtF/FtM terminology as well. 

The umbrella term bothers me quite a bit, and the fact is I want no part of most of the others in the umbrella.  To me transitioning sex is something one does, and there is an end point.  Its also a medical condition, not some political identity.  My medical condition has nothing to with thier desire to wear different clothing.

The very fact I was born intersex makes the terminology bother me even more.  To me there needs to be a clean break in terms of terminology.  It is to confusing.  There is a significant number of women who transitioned who want no part of the term transgender.  Its time to say that transsexual is seperate from transgender.  That transitioning ones sex does not belong, nor it should belong in the same umbrella, in any way shape or form as somebody who crossdresses. 

It is time to end the umbrella terminology.

I am NOT transgender.

couldn't agree more with both of you.
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Sarah Louise

The name of the site we are posting on is Susan's Place "Transgender" Forums.

There are definitions we are supposed to live by posted by Susan. 

Many people who now describe themselves as Transsexual first thought of themselves as crossdressers.  When I was young I never heard of the term Transsexual.  I have seen the evolution of many terms in my life, some I agree with others I don't.

I don't particularly like society placing limits on who I am.  I am transitioned I have lived in societies eyes as a woman for many years (I have considered myself to be a woman most of my life, even when I was playing the part assigned to me by society).

Susan's is not an exclusive site, classifying ourselves as better than someone else does not help. 

I am locking this thread and hope that no one other than an Administrator overrides this.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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