Hey.

So, I've identified as an mtf my whole life so far, but I've been doing some thinking lately.  Gender roles and all that, and how they don't really lend themselves to condusive progress for our species.  Or, in other words, I think removing gender barriers is important to the evolution of our species.  I sort of want to express myself androgynously, and I wanna express myself as a man, and I wanna express myself as a woman.  But it seems like in this world that you need to pick one of the two main options, with no consideration for the minor ones.  I can't even think of a way to express the world in non-gendered terms.  Also, it's like... I feel the gender roles are important even though there's an intellectual part of me that goes "No they're not."

I dunno.  My thoughts aren't really formed.  I was hoping for some feedback.

I was just thinking the same thing. What would society be without "gender"? Or can they allow each person to just choose one? Should there be new genders recognized by society?

But I am afraid that in our day and age, there are still too many people, who are so afraid of being different, stepping out of the line, that they would defend the established order fiercely, just so that they know that them, themselves would never be the subject of disapprove or ridicule. :S

I like the fact that the world is gendered. I don't know why it is important but humans seem to create these roles so it must be some innate urge I reckon - the roles themselves seem secondary to this i.e. is does not matter what the roles are as long as there is differentiation.

Personally I think the world would be great if we kept the gender behaviour but did not punish those that transgressed and generally was more permissive of difference. Recognise that not everyone is comfortable in the standard gender roles.

I don't think I would be very comfortable if I was suddenly mainstream.

I'd be happy if our world recognized and celebrated the full diversity of gender identities and expressions.

Z

Great minds think alike is the impression I'm getting from this thread.

So... another question.  What does it mean to be an androgyne?  Being androgynous is pretty straightforward because it's an adjective, but what does the noun mean?  Physically pertaining to both genders?  Mentally?  Pertaining to neither gender?  Crossover?  The ability to switch genders?  And how would an androgyne express their unique gender if the term itself seems to imply a dissatisfaction with the concept of gender?  I'm really sort of confused on all of these issues.

Quote from: Jester on September 28, 2009, 04:44:01 PM
So... another question.  What does it mean to be an androgyne?  Being androgynous is pretty straightforward because it's an adjective, but what does the noun mean?  Physically pertaining to both genders?  Mentally?  Pertaining to neither gender? 

For me it's a feeling of being neither of the binary genders, however I will say that I'm more comfortable on the female side of the spectrum.

Z

An androgyne is not a clear cut thing. It seems to encompass a group of people who don't feel they are men or women in terms of their internal identity (also is assumed to include those who just want to look androgynous). Some are rather in the middle, some are more fluid, some like me are towards one end of the imaginary binary gender spectrum but not enough to feel comfortable identifying at that end. I've gone away from identifying as androgyne myself but I still fit in with the androgyne crowd. If you feel it discribes you then I think you should claim it.

I don't think it implies a dissatisfaction with the concept of gender, though many people are dissatisfied with it. I for one strongly feel that I have a gender, it is not an androgynous gender, and it is not male or female.

I think what it means to be androgyne is that you make your own rules. I think the key message of androgyne expression is wear it how you want to wear it. There are no rules, no boundaries, no limits. It is freedom of expression. If you identify as androgyne and express yourself as you want to be then that is androgyne expression. You could say it is human expression. Welcome to the grey, it is a lovely place!

Both of you have very good points.  I dunno.  I've never felt comfortable as a man, and I don't feel comfortable as a woman outside of the privacy of my own home.  I'd rather be with a woman than a man, and I guess there's a part of me that resents all the boys that were douches to me growing up, especially when you're not good at sports, like to escape into fantasy worlds, and have a tendency towards the over-emotional (even if I have all but killed that aspect of myself.)  I'm very particular about my physical appearance, and I value words over deeds.  When it comes to what's expected of the genders, I seem to do a lot of jumping back and forth.  I don't really feel comfortable with myself I guess, and I've always been a person that goes big or goes home, so if I'm gonna be androgynous I want people to notice and know exactly what I'm about and sort of force them to deal with it.  But at the same time, something about the way that emos and metros go about the androgyny thing rubs me the wrong way.

I quite like looking openly transgender. I'm trying to be a bit bolder myself - bright colors, big colorful beads, strippy tights, steam punk inspired stuff, bright nails. In relation to my band I love the performance of it. I think the emos and metros rub you the wrong way because they are still strongly gendered looks regardless of what people say.

One way to go about it is to create contrast - facial hair and make-up, wear a man suit and heals i.e. gender f--k.

Quote from: Jester on September 28, 2009, 05:03:13 PM
Both of you have very good points.  I dunno.  I've never felt comfortable as a man, and I don't feel comfortable as a woman outside of the privacy of my own home.  I'd rather be with a woman than a man, and I guess there's a part of me that resents all the boys that were douches to me growing up, especially when you're not good at sports, like to escape into fantasy worlds, and have a tendency towards the over-emotional (even if I have all but killed that aspect of myself.)  I'm very particular about my physical appearance, and I value words over deeds.  When it comes to what's expected of the genders, I seem to do a lot of jumping back and forth.  I don't really feel comfortable with myself I guess, and I've always been a person that goes big or goes home, so if I'm gonna be androgynous I want people to notice and know exactly what I'm about and sort of force them to deal with it.  But at the same time, something about the way that emos and metros go about the androgyny thing rubs me the wrong way.

That's the cool thing about being an androgyne. You can be however you want to be (girlish, boyish? doesn't matter) at anytime. Many of us are genderfluid (me!) in that we float between the two genders, some of us aren't that way at all and just live happily as we are in the middle, and some of us are actually bigendered (both genders at the same time).

Like nicky said, it's a gray area between the binary genders where we live. We're unicorns.

As far as how you express yourself, do what is comfortable. Some of us like to dress femme at times (<--legs), while some of us prefer a more androgynous expression and perhaps wear the odd bit of jewelry, or perhaps an androgynous haircut, or whatever.

Point is, do what makes you happy.

And welcome to the unicorn forest 

Hi Jester

I'm not sure of the rules for posting links so wont for now. Try some searches for androgynous people throughout history. Even going back to Adam who may have been androgynous, civilisations have been aware of us throughout the ages. Difference seems to be for centuries it was looked at as a devine gift with people recognising the advantages of having a female and male side. Androgynous people were Gods and leaders of kingdoms.
Wisdom is a female gender whilst logic is a male trait. We have both!

It is only the last few centuries that civilisation has turned against us and other transgendered persons. Right people wrong time.

Regarding evolution of the species, hope I'm wrong but I feel like Rome, come and gone!

I feel that now recognising what I am and learning more about myself, then learning to fit that in with the confines of my life are what are now important to me. The more I research the androgynous person the happier I become about myself. We are very special and unique. Never forget that.

Hi Page, check out the site rules for the linking policy (Rule 1 I think)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html

Cheers
Nicki

Quote from: Page on September 29, 2009, 02:50:33 PM

I feel that now recognising what I am and learning more about myself, then learning to fit that in with the confines of my life are what are now important to me. The more I research the androgynous person the happier I become about myself. We are very special and unique. Never forget that.

Can I just add that I've been feeling the same since I took the step of trying to figure out what's up with me And this forum helps a lot too!

As for androgyne, the first thing that really pops up into my head is Ann Rice's character Lestat - I always thought that he is somewhere in between and now I think that he's exactly what could be considered adrogenious.

For a guy, I think I'd picture someone who is very much so in touch with their feminine side. It doesn't really matter if they look feminine - it's more in the mental process and the behavior, even though I think it shows at the end of the day. And for a woman... I think it's pretty easy for girls to get away with being boyish because nobody makes much of a woman wanting to dress in masculine clothes or wanting to take control over the team (well, I'm trying to figure that out).