I live stealth by choice.  I think most of us transition to live our lives as the women or men we are and not as trans. I know many girls that have moved far away from the cities where they were born to live their lives in stealth after surgery.  Who can blame them? who can blame us?  Like Pia said, after many years in the wrong sex, the last thing we need is activists telling us what to do after we transition.  I don't feel I owe anything to anybody either. so get over it!

There was a time a few years back when "stealth" was just a dream.  I wasn't "stealth" material if you know what I mean.  But all that changed in an instant.  I was able to move to a different country after I had facial feminization surgery.  I got a marvelous job contract & the opportunity to start my life from scratch without all this trans crap that was asphyxiating me.  GRS has opened up new doors for me too.  I can now marry my long time BF & that's something I never thought it could happen. 

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got for a reason, any reason.

Quote from: Leslie on October 01, 2009, 04:10:39 AM

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got for a reason, any reason.

Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 01, 2009, 04:39:17 AM
Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

...In Candyland.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 01, 2009, 04:39:17 AM
Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

That's been my experience as well.

-={LR}=-

I will say, those I am out to get it.  I am not completely stealth, my boyfriend does know, as well as some close friends.  I will say, being intersex did change the dynamic during transition and after transition.  Because my life experiences are so different, I really can't relate to other transsexuals, especially older transsexuals.  Being intersex shifted the dynamic significantly, I am not saying folks with IS who transition have it easier, I am saying it is very different experience socially. 

When there's a physical component present, especially one that is medically accepted, people in general will give you a pass because "you couldn't help it".  But if the problem is seen as psychological, the response from the masses often is "fix it yourself so we don't have to deal with it".  In other words, it's all in your head. 

People are afraid of things they can't see.

Julie

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 01, 2009, 05:22:41 PM
Not where I live sweety.  I live in Bigotville.  People here are either KKK, nazis, religious zealots or republicans.  No real difference between any of them.  Everyone here hates minorities of all types.  Especially MY type.

Yeah.  I want out of here badly.

Dee hon I hope you get to move out of that place, it sounds really bad.

For my part I'm moving to the complete other side of the planet, a new country, a new life. When I'm there now I seem to pull it off just fine and I've had no problems, so I'm either "stealth" or nobody really cares. It does seem strange to me that no one even notices, but either way that's how I wish it to be.

To address the subject of this thread, the hostility, when it exists at all, seems to go both ways. It's probably a subject unique to our condition and I'm sure we care a lot more about it than anyone else does. To me transitioning is a temporary journey, not a permanent lifestyle. I think most of us just want to be left to live our lives in peace, and choose for ourselves which battles we want to face.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 01, 2009, 05:22:41 PM
Not where I live sweety.  I live in Bigotville.  People here are either KKK, nazis, religious zealots or republicans.  No real difference between any of them.  Everyone here hates minorities of all types.  Especially MY type.

Yeah.  I want out of here badly.

I live in the Ozarks.  We've got all of that.  More KKK than Nazis though.

ozarks... seriously theirs people there thats in the sticks lol i was stationed at fort lenardwood for a while theres a reason they call it fort lost in the woods hehe
jessica

Quote from: DawnL on September 29, 2009, 12:34:34 PM
The brain is the seat of being.  I have a female brain, therefore, I am female.  End of subject.  I really could care less what my DNA says.

Healthy view?  I don't know for certain but that is the world view I live with.

Very well said.  Whilst it's true that some peeps want to be trans for good even after GRS, most of us just want to get on with our lives & leave the past behind not dwell on it & live our realities as the women we are.  I think this is why so many of us go stealth, we don't want anything to do with trans stuff.  We've found a comfort zone where we're happy without being reminded that  "we don't have ovaries or a uterus, we aren't "real" women" or we are less than a woman".

I swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

Quote from: Pia on October 02, 2009, 03:11:31 PMI swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

Right on Sister!

Sometimes..... in fact often.....I read various forums and just despair   

I hate arguing with people but the tone of that last paragraph is pretty snappy and demands some sort of answer.

Quote from: PiaWhilst it's true that some peeps want to be trans for good even after GRS

I'm pretty sure that practically every trans-person would be stealth if it were possible for them.  I certainly would and I don't know any other transwoman who wouldn't. Trans-people who do pass well yet are Out have come to the realisation that nothing changes without a fight and that in order to fight more effectively, they need to be visible. The struggles of such people is what has created the possibility to be stealth in the first place.

QuoteI swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.

Hmmm....... well ok, but tell me that again when somebody or some loose-end Outs you and your SO dumps you as has happened to countless others   
Go and screw some neanderthal, then tell him you're trans and see what happens hun 
Of course you won't hear that talk about whether you're a "real woman" or not - you're stealth
When you read a forum such as this, you're reading the postings of other people who already Know  - and they are invariably citing the attitude of the general public once they too find out.  If you've lost touch with the undeniable realities of our collective situation, go and read the court reports of all the murdered, beaten and persecuted trans-women.

- if you are succeeding in living Stealth then go sister, more power to you, and I do genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart. 
But your shielding from "that kind of tripe" only lasts as long as your stealth does.

I think the original point of this thread was to point out the ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude of some Stealth people towards those who are still in transition or who can never Pass well enough to be stealth.

QuoteI think this is why so many of us go stealth, we don't want anything to do with trans stuff.

.....which is fine, as long as a person didn't use such forums for information, advice and support before successfully transitioning and then afterwards developing said ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude.

Quote.....want to get on with our lives & leave the past behind not dwell on it & live our realities as the women we are........ we don't want anything to do with trans stuff. We've found a comfort zone where we're happy without being reminded .........No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

OK, that's clear enough.
- Just remind me again why you're here on a trans forum?

I'm not not quite sure if I want to jump into this boiling cauldron. Ah, what the heck! Why not.

I can understand why some here want to stay and live in stealth. The matter of whether or not you're 100% or 50% makes no difference to me and I applaud you for having the courage and wherewithal to make it happen. Truly, I do. If you do not wish to be a part of activism toward better social relations and ending discrimination ie, firings, homelessness, ostracization, harassment, beatings and in the extreme, murders of members of the transgender community, so be it. Not every one of us has the desire to move fences; I understand that, too. Not all of the citizen's of this great land are willing to go to war to protect our way of life. Still, the rights that soldiers protect with their lives are not held away from the rest of us because we didn't fight for them. It's just the way of life and culture in this country.

However, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

Look, if you don't want to be included as being trangender or any part of the community that is transgender, well, then good for you. It's your choice. But, for crying out loud, stop! Stop the hatred and the hissyfits toward those of us that do wish to be included in that "umbrella" and let us fight our battle on just one front, not two! Seriously, I know I am transexual. I don't have a doubt about that. But, I also know my roots. And they run through the transgender community as a whole. As was stated by another poster here, something to the effect, "you know where you came from". I do know from whence I came and, I don't feel the need to go stealth. It's my choice. Like some others, I could have, yet, I didn't. Does that nullify me as a "true" transexual? Does that make me non-valid as a person? This is the perception that transgender people have when they are talked down to by this element of transexual people.

Not all of us really know what's going on for sure when we have these odd feelings of who we really are, with no way to explain them as a youth or even as an adult. Surely you can remember how frightening it was when you didn't know who to talk to or where to turn for help in this 'journey of a lifetime'. And, if your situation was like mine, the transgender community was there to help get you and I through it.  They are the last people on Earth, I would want to reject once I finish this journey. Transgender people need love too! Let's give 'em a little!

And, when we win this battle for equality, and we will win, I, for one will say that it includes all of us. LGBTIQ etc., and even those of us who are stealth (just in case you should, at some point, need those protections).


Dawn

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 02, 2009, 06:36:56 AM
An old friend gets DRUNK as hell every day and talks BS about me. He outed me to his wife's son who just got out of prison yesterday. Right off her son started sending me very hateful text messages.

When he was laying in ICU in the prison hospital dying from his suicide attempt  and his mother was falling apart, **** I **** was the ONLY ONE to comfort her.  Her husband sat there like a stumble bum, still in a haze from his binge the night before.

And when she had to flee from her husband because he was hateful and abusive to her, I am the only person to open their door and take her in, feed her, comfort her, support her. No one else would. But I did. I went out of my way to assist her, my best friend in all the world.

And now her convict son is out of prison and sending mean and hateful messages to me, the only one to HELP his mother in her times of need.

Her drunken husband is trying hard to out me, to get me hurt or killed now. I never did anything to him. We had been friends for 30 years.

No more.

So yeah, I want to move far, far away and start a new life of deep stealth, where no one knows me at all.

I can do it, I "pass" all the way, voice even on the phone now. Looks, not pretty but always treated the same as any other woman. No questions.
I don't even try anymore, I just do my thing and I'm just another plain, homely woman.

I wanted to move to Green Bay with my boyfriend but he's wishy-washy and won't make a decision or even drop the L word on me.

I just want to go very, very far away from here.
I want the person I pretended to be to just f**king die and go away forever.

Those issues are not per se trans issues though.  That's to do with the kind of people you spend your time with.  Someone who gets drunk and then puts you in unsafe situations is not your friend and should not have your phone number.  You probably should move, not for anything to do with being trans, but just because it sounds like your situation is unhealthy for anyone.

---

Post Merge: October 02, 2009, 09:18:22 PM

---

Quote from: Dawn D. on October 02, 2009, 07:02:01 PM
I'm not not quite sure if I want to jump into this boiling cauldron. Ah, what the heck! Why not.

I can understand why some here want to stay and live in stealth. The matter of whether or not you're 100% or 50% makes no difference to me and I applaud you for having the courage and wherewithal to make it happen. Truly, I do. If you do not wish to be a part of activism toward better social relations and ending discrimination ie, firings, homelessness, ostracization, harassment, beatings and in the extreme, murders of members of the transgender community, so be it. Not every one of us has the desire to move fences; I understand that, too. Not all of the citizen's of this great land are willing to go to war to protect our way of life. Still, the rights that soldiers protect with their lives are not held away from the rest of us because we didn't fight for them. It's just the way of life and culture in this country.

However, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

Look, if you don't want to be included as being trangender or any part of the community that is transgender, well, then good for you. It's your choice. But, for crying out loud, stop! Stop the hatred and the hissyfits toward those of us that do wish to be included in that "umbrella" and let us fight our battle on just one front, not two! Seriously, I know I am transexual. I don't have a doubt about that. But, I also know my roots. And they run through the transgender community as a whole. As was stated by another poster here, something to the effect, "you know where you came from". I do know from whence I came and, I don't feel the need to go stealth. It's my choice. Like some others, I could have, yet, I didn't. Does that nullify me as a "true" transexual? Does that make me non-valid as a person? This is the perception that transgender people have when they are talked down to by this element of transexual people.

Not all of us really know what's going on for sure when we have these odd feelings of who we really are, with no way to explain them as a youth or even as an adult. Surely you can remember how frightening it was when you didn't know who to talk to or where to turn for help in this 'journey of a lifetime'. And, if your situation was like mine, the transgender community was there to help get you and I through it.  They are the last people on Earth, I would want to reject once I finish this journey. Transgender people need love too! Let's give 'em a little!

And, when we win this battle for equality, and we will win, I, for one will say that it includes all of us. LGBTIQ etc., and even those of us who are stealth (just in case you should, at some point, need those protections).


Dawn

Great post.  It reminds me of this documentary HBO is doing that starts next week that is about all of those right wing nut job congressmen who spew so much hate speech against the LGBT community, even though they are in fact gay themselves it turns out. 

It's so disapointing.  It's understandable to the degree that they are insecure about themselves, but it would be nice if they could at least not say anything, rather than say something mean.

Quote from: SteffiOut have come to the realisation that nothing changes without a fight and that in order to fight more effectively, they need to be visible. The struggles of such people is what has created the possibility to be stealth in the first place.

First let me say that I'm not from the US & I'm not very familiar with your trans politics there.  But if I remember what I've read about the US trans history correctly, the GLB movement added the T for transgender in the early 90's.  Before 1990, peeps that transitioned were already living their lives in stealth.  Transsexuality has been a recognised medical condition for many years, even in my native country, a post-operational transsexual's been able to change her certificate of birth & all documentation papers after GRS for many years now.  This isn't something new.  It's been like that even before the GLB added the T to their movement, so no the struggles of the recent activists didn't create the possibility to be stealth in the first place as you say.

Quote from: Steffi
Go and screw some neanderthal, then tell him you're trans and see what happens hun 

You shouldn't be screwing some neanderthal or some hillbilly or some redneck if you're pre-operational in the first place.  If you wanna screw him, you should be honest with him & tell him what you've got between your legs before you even go out with him.  Don't put yourself at risk if you know the bloke's some neanderthal ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Steffiwhich is fine, as long as a person didn't use such forums for information, advice and support before successfully transitioning and then afterwards developing said ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude.

I transitioned alone in a small homophobic country.  We don't have a trans community here.  The closest to that is the gay movement but their interests are different so many girls transition on their own without forums, advice or support from trans sites like this.  Support comes from family if they don't kick you the hell out of the house first.  Clinicians are there only if you can afford them so most of us are alone, we transition alone & sometimes we don't even have the support of our folks.

Quote from: Steffi, that's clear enough.
- Just remind me again why you're here on a trans forum?

I come here to get advice & give advice as a post-operational girl.  Stuff that doesn't pertain to people that havent fully transitioned in the first place.  I feel a kind of kinship with other post-operational girls. We've been thru the same.  We share the same experiences & I can get info on post-operational issues.

Quote from: Dawn D.I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community.

Same thing happens with some vile trans activists that throw vitriol & profanities to all the girls that have fully transitioned.  If somebody messes with you, what do you do?  turn the other cheek, smile & say thank you or defend yourself?  I defend myself & I think that's what other peeps do.

has it occured to you that If the stealthy girls are "vicious" maybe it is because they're tired of being messed up with?  I don't have anything against the commnunity as a whole.  There are many marvelous peeps that are just trying to live in peace.  I have a problem with bigoted bitches & ->-bleeped-<-s that alwyas tell me that "I don't have ovaries or womb, I've got male DNA & I'm not real."

Quote from: Dawn D. on October 02, 2009, 07:02:01 PMHowever, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

I'll take a shot at this...

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything." 

When I read some replies here I wonder about the interpretations.  I don't see anyone telling anyone else how to run their lives or that they can never be a woman, etc.  What I do see is hypersensitivity and misinterpretation. 

There are countless stories of people from our community being outed, being discriminated against, losing their jobs and most frightening, being beaten or killed.  To take the attitude you will forever avoid any of this if you disassociate yourself from "trans people" is wishful thinking.  Record keeping is better than it ever was.  Some states in the US will not allow a gender change on your BC.  Family or friends who do know can turn on you.  And the list goes on.  Then one day you find yourself a victim and realize what everyone was saying was true.

It doesn't matter to me who wants to be an activist or who wants nothing to do with that.  I have my life pretty much together and I can get along just fine with the way things are now.  I'm active, I pass well enough and I am financially secure.  I even have health insurance coverage until I die.  I don't need anything to change for TGs.  But that doesn't mean I'm willing to sit on my butt and watch the world go by.  The younger you are the more involved you should be in making this world a better place for TGs for my life to be acceptable. 

But what today's youth enjoys, including support for early transitioning, is there because people didn't sit on their duffs.  They fought and they sacrificed and for that we should be thankful, not alienating.

Julie

OK Pia...... thanks for your calm and measured response. 
I myself am actually in the UK

Quote from: PiaYou shouldn't be screwing some neanderthal or some hillbilly or some redneck if you're pre-operational in the first place.  If you wanna screw him, you should be honest with him & tell him what you've got between your legs before you even go out with him.  Don't put yourself at risk if you know the bloke's some neanderthal ->-bleeped-<-.

I was actually referring to post-ops such as possibly yourself because straight guys sometimes freak out quite badly when they discover that they have been sleeping with someone who was born male.   
- clearly, any pre-op would need to fess up well before any intimacy occurs at all.

Quote from: PiaI have a problem with bigoted bitches & ->-bleeped-<-s that always tell me that "I don't have ovaries or womb, I've got male DNA, I'm not real."

Well that's understandable and would piss anyone off.
I haven't personally ever seen that type of post on any trans forum EXCEPT where somebody was playing Devil's Advocate.

Julie & DawnD - good posts

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PMI think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything."

I transitioned young (24) and have also been around for a LONG time now (age 60) and seen a LOT of changes. I never had "rose coloured glasses" because, back then, I had no idea what to expect.

"Stealth" was the norm in 1974 (actually, there wasn't even a term for it) and being "passable" was a prerequisite for surgery. One was just expected to go off and integrate into womanhood and live a normal life - that's what it was all about and no respectable doctor would perform surgery on someone he doubted would be able to do just that. I never met a TS who wasn't obviously and easily "just a girl".

Quite frankly, through the 1970's and into the 80's, despite the rarity of the condition, it just wasn't "that big a deal", probably because the few who had 'transitioned' and had surgery were "just a girl" in society's eyes. A few months after surgery I was outed at my new employment and aside from the boys snickering in the back room, the general attitude was "That must have been horrible for you. Where do you want to go for lunch?" and that was the end of it. People grasped the idea of "a girl in a deformed body" and that was that.

Somewhere along the line, while I was off living a mundane and normal life, T became part of GLBT and when I came back to the community online, the world was altogether different. "Transsexual" now referred to anyone who wanted to chop up their private bits and "become a woman", some lamented the loss of a marriage, alienation from children, hanging on to "male privilege", and so forth. Huh? No wonder John Q. Public is confused when trans-this and trans-that are all smeared together in a gender stew!

(The following is a personal opinion and is not intended to reflect on anyone else though I know some people will feel the need to "justify themselves". If you feel that way, look inside for WHY.)

If a person is "born with a female brain", you ARE a girl and you can't hide it no matter how bad the situation - it leaks out here and there and everybody from childhood onward is aware of it - you were probably the last one to figure it out. If you are a girl in a deformed body, doing something about that deformity and living true to yourself becomes a MAJOR priority around puberty as your ability to "pass" as your presumed birth sex diminishes. Very few untreated transsexuals survived beyond 25 prior to the 1970's. If treated, the vast majority went on to live relatively normal lives and were pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of womankind. (Some 20 years after SRS a rumour of my medical history went through my community. The rumour was dismissed as implausible.)

From what I see, the inclusion of T in GLBT has 'opened the door' for more people to transition and have surgery but it has also completely overshadowed the case of those Type VI transsexuals who personified Dr. Benjamin's words "a complete psycho-sexual inversion" and made it difficult (if not impossible) for them to live a normal life.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PM

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything." 
Julie

With all due respect, what makes you think that we haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer & that we still wear rose coloured glasses?.  I apologise if I've inadvertently misunderstood your post, but are you suggesting that because we transitioned young (I transitioned at 25 myself & I'm in my early thirties now) we haven't experienced bigotry or discrimination?  You see, I believe this is the reason why so many people get upset, when baseless assumptions are made, or blanket statements are thrown out in the open without any consideration of the feelings or experiences of others.

It's only in the recent years that I've been able to start a fresh brand new life in a different country without the burden & pain of my past & I intend to keep it that way.  But I've endured discrimination.  I was demoted & eventually terminated by my former employer for being transsexual.  I've been harassed, abused, denied basic human rights by people in my country of birth for the same reason.  The difference is that I don't come here to cry about my personal matters or to demand sympathy.  My personal affairs are mine alone & I'm a very private person to say the least.