Leslie,

This is an unwinnable argument. You have your opinion along with a number of others who see it your way and others have a different point of view. I don't believe Julie was suggesting that you have those pretty rose colored glasses on or for that matter anyone in here. Rather, the statement is a generalization. One that from my point of view believe to be accurate. What I think is more important (my opinion) is the idea that misinterpretation of a thought or phrase leads to animosity and resentment. Along with that is the premise that in this "cause" for equalitythere are four distinct groups "we' collectively can be placed in:

1.)Those that "get it" and want to do something about it.

2.)Those that "get it", support it and wish to remain silent.

3.)Those that "get it" and want nothing to do with it.

4.)And, then there are those that "don't get it" at all. These are the people that are vile, arrogant, repressive, resentful and angry. They don't, for what ever reason they have, believe there is a connection between themselves and the struggles that everyone in TG'dom might experience. These are the "Stealth Lives" that are in reference here.

I feel Julie is right, when she says "these people you talk about need to dissociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination." This is the fourth group. That's is their choice. Right, wrong or other! Yet, if you look a little deeper into the situation, it's really not that hard to see that just one little slip somewhere along the way and this stealth life they are living can turn on a dime. That possibility does exist. To suggest otherwise is just being in denial. Where will they be then? Shouldn't the framework be in place that can help them through the hardship of that experience? Even if they weren't a part of the campaign to bring the protections into existence,they will still have them. So my simple question to this is, "Why (if your living stealth) should you or would you, (spoken in a generality) harbor and express such divisive and denigrating language in an attempt to stifle progress being made to bring about these new laws and protections?

If you don't like the thought of transgender people or don't believe they "truly" exist. It's your choice to have those opinions Plain and simple. Conversely to that, I as a transexual same as any other transexual out there, will hold to the belief that the transgender experience is real and is a part of our (transexual) existence.

So how do we resolve this dilemma of such a wide chasm of differing opinion's? Be respectful of each others point of view. Try not to take opposing points too personal. And, above all we shouldn't fight each other in public. I'll admit right here and now, I have been guilty of that last one. However, in the future, you can bet I will not enter into another "public" display of intra-trans disagreements like that again! It does not serve us well.

The lesson I'll take from all of this is; if you're stealth respect those that aren't and do not fault them for living openly. If you're not stealth, respect those that are and do not fault them for not being a part of our efforts at making the world more acceptable to our legitimate right exist equally and openly.

Disclaimer: If i've offended anyone here with the preceeding post; it was not my intent. My apologies in advance.


Dawn

Life has been so easy for me too.   I began transition at 17.  Also on my own, in a third world country where people often confuse transsexual with a type of super feminine gay man.  Yup they're that ignorant.  If you say you've got a female brain & you've got a penis down there, they will laugh at you, ridicule you & beat you up until you cough up blood or until they rape your brains out.

Lucky me that my father's French so my mother & I got a French visa & travelled to France where our lives got a little bit better.  We worked very hard, in different places, built our own way up step by step, little by little dealt with discrimination & bigotry from the locals because we were foreigners but most of all because they saw me as a 'foreigner ->-bleeped-<-got' a threat to their land & beliefs.  Nope I wasn't one of those privileged kids that get everything from their parents, a room with a personal computer & hundreds of free hours to fool around on trans sites.  Foreigner kids don't have it that easy.  If we don't work our asses off & help our parents, we don't eat.  We can't waste a minute of our time doing stupid things like that.

Last year I could finally pay for GRS after working hard with my family to make our business grow. What the hell do I know about the hardships of life?   Maybe I'd have waited until I'm 40, 50 or 60 to transition.  Maybe I'd have married a woman & had kids, played the role of a man for years.  Maybe I'd have built a life as any man first & then transitioned.  Maybe I'd have waited until retirement to transition & taken activism as a hobby.  Maybe I'd have transitioned after having had a successful life as a man, a life made, a generous bank account.  Maybe, maybe, maybe.  Lots of maybes but some of us young ones don't have a "choice".  If we don't transition we die.  There's no other way to put it.  But what do I know. life's been so easy. 

Quote from: Leslie on October 03, 2009, 06:45:56 AM

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PM
I'll take a shot at this...

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything." 

Julie

With all due respect, what makes you think that we haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer & that we still wear rose coloured glasses?.  I apologise if I've inadvertently misunderstood your post, but are you suggesting that because we transitioned young (I transitioned at 25 myself & I'm in my early thirties now) we haven't experienced bigotry or discrimination?  You see, I believe this is the reason why so many people get upset, when baseless assumptions are made, or blanket statements are thrown out in the open without any consideration of the feelings or experiences of others.

It's only in the recent years that I've been able to start a fresh brand new life in a different country without the burden & pain of my past & I intend to keep it that way.  But I've endured discrimination.  I was demoted & eventually terminated by my former employer for being transsexual.  I've been harassed, abused, denied basic human rights by people in my country of birth for the same reason.  The difference is that I don't come here to cry about my personal matters or to demand sympathy.  My personal affairs are mine alone & I'm a very private person to say the least.

I agree Leslie. Assumptions about one another's lives and choices is at the core of this issue.

Julie, I too think your post was a bit on the patronizing side. Many young women in our community were brought to the point of transition earlier *because* of the discrimination they faced being themselves. I don't think anyone transitions wearing rose colored glasses. I don't think the desire for stealth is any indication of the level of discrimination accumulated. In the same vein, there may be many out and proud transpersons who have never experienced much opposition.

First of all, as Dawn suggested, the statements I made were generalizations but yes, they were based on things I've read here.  When someone says "I am 100% stealth except..." it seems to me they are in denial.  I have a strong math background and there is no gray area in math.  100% has no exceptions.  Sorry, it's decades of mathematical logic that make it hard for me to see it any different.

But if YOU want to see it differently, that's your privilege.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But what I have tried to make clear is I'm not telling anyone how to live.  I am not telling anyone they are wrong.  What I am saying is if you want a better life: if you want to put an end to the prejudice, intolerance and discrimination, if you want to do something positive for future generations, you can't be invisible.

I often imagine what it would be like for any of us if we went off to have surgery and were greeted at the airport by throngs of reporters all anxiously waiting to see the person who had the SEX CHANGE OPERATION!  The freak!  And then have our pictures and story splashed all over the country and even the world because we had a SEX CHANGE.  That's what happened to Christine Jorgensen back in the early 50's because no one could believe a "man would want to become a woman".  Yet she presented herself with class and dignity throughout the entire ordeal.  She paved the way for all of us and for that I am eternally grateful.

So when I get up on my soap box and talk about the importance of making a difference it's because I know how bad things used to be and how much better they are today because of the people who have made the sacrifices they have.

I hope you'll forgive my desire to encourage all of us to continue making a positive difference and to do so myself.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 03, 2009, 03:13:23 PM
First of all, as Dawn suggested, the statements I made were generalizations but yes, they were based on things I've read here.  When someone says "I am 100% stealth except..." it seems to me they are in denial.  I have a strong math background and there is no gray area in math.  100% has no exceptions.  Sorry, it's decades of mathematical logic that make it hard for me to see it any different.

But if YOU want to see it differently, that's your privilege.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But what I have tried to make clear is I'm not telling anyone how to live.  I am not telling anyone they are wrong.  What I am saying is if you want a better life: if you want to put an end to the prejudice, intolerance and discrimination, if you want to do something positive for future generations, you can't be invisible.

I often imagine what it would be like for any of us if we went off to have surgery and were greeted at the airport by throngs of reporters all anxiously waiting to see the person who had the SEX CHANGE OPERATION!  The freak!  And then have our pictures and story splashed all over the country and even the world because we had a SEX CHANGE.  That's what happened to Christine Jorgensen back in the early 50's because no one could believe a "man would want to become a woman".  Yet she presented herself with class and dignity throughout the entire ordeal.  She paved the way for all of us and for that I am eternally grateful.

So when I get up on my soap box and talk about the importance of making a difference it's because I know how bad things used to be and how much better they are today because of the people who have made the sacrifices they have.

I hope you'll forgive my desire to encourage all of us to continue making a positive difference and to do so myself.

Julie

I feel that one of the problems is that those who come after us seem to forget that we experienced what they experienced or are experiencing (For the most part).  We suffered pain, prejudice, alienation, sometimes violence, etc.  Yet we succeeded. During my transition and for about a year after surgery, I was quite active in the community where I live, fighting for TS rights and freedoms, but there came a point in time where I needed to get on with my own life, and start looking after me.  I was frustrated that folks kept confusing my issues with TG issues, calling me TG, it's not what I was or am.

Whether they know it or not, I believe that those who have successfully transitioned, Man or Woman, have contributed to the fight for TS rights, just as those who follow will likewise contribute.  However no one has the right to tell me that I have not done enough, I did my thing now leave me alone to enjoy my life in peace.  I didn't transition for a cause, or a fight, I transitioned to be me.  I fought to be where I am now, and I'm not going to jeopardize that by outing myself.  It's about time that others got off their high horse and do their bit, and when they too get tired, pass the torch to those who follow.

-={LR}=-

First off let me state that I am a big advocate of disassociating transsexual from transgender. I think associating a medical condition with a political identity is problematic, especially when many people with that treatable medical condition want no part of that political identity.   Intersex was never a part of transgender, so don't make that association either.

Also let me put it that transition is not a lifelong thing.  For many of us it has an end point.  I don't buy so much into the stealth philosophy as I do the assimiliationist philosophy.  I am not intentionally trying to go stealth and break off all links to my past, people in my life do know, but its not the end of the world that they know.  Then again, as I stated earlier, I experience things differently because I was born intersex.  Assimiliation was rather easy for me after a certian point and transition did have an end point.  People don't question it so much with me...more I get, oh it makes sense, you were born intersex.  Am I out and open, no, you have to know me pretty well to know I am intersex and have transitioned.  I believe that one has to choose how they create a balance in thier life with being open and not being open.   To me this has less to do with discrimintation and more to do with personal choice.  I should note, I am in social circles and communities were being transsexual is no big deal, advantage of big city subculture.

I never had much involvement in the trans community save for early on in my transition.  Even early on in my transition, it was pretty clear I would have to do this alone. If it was not for a GLBT clinic, and a blood test that was a bit more comprehensive, I probably would not have known the exact nature of my intersex condition.  I knew I was intersex...I was born with atypical genitials, and yes, I had scars to prove it.  So I am not necessarily critical of the LGBT medical structure, if anything I am an advocate.

I have made this perfectly clear. Somebody who is transsexual, and does not identify as transgender, is not transgender.  Don't call them transgender, it is well...offensive. Transgender is a political identity, transsexual is a medical condition. If somebody does not identify with the political identity,they are not transgender. Also realize alot of folks do believe transition does have an end, its a valid point.  Don't keep suggesting it doesn't to these folks, its annoying and invalidates thier experience. 

Quote from: sweetstars on October 04, 2009, 08:09:18 AMI have made this perfectly clear. Somebody who is transsexual, and does not identify as transgender, is not transgender.  Don't call them transgender, it is well...offensive. Transgender is a political identity, transsexual is a medical condition. If somebody does not identify with the political identity,they are not transgender. Also realize alot of folks do believe transition does have an end, its a valid point.  Don't keep suggesting it doesn't to these folks, its annoying and invalidates thier experience.

The politically correct movement has done a fairly decent job of creating sensitivity to words they defined as derogatory.  The existence of the term "the 'N' word" is a good example of that.  We can't even say the entire word without violating political correctness.  But that doesn't stop people from using the word.  Telling someone to do something they see no need to do is often futile. 

That is not my opinion, it's simply a fact of human nature.

When people don't say or don't do what you want you can respond in any way you wish.  But what response is most effective?  If your blood boils as you chew them a new @$$ but they laugh in your face, is that a good response on your part?  If you recite a thousand reasons why you feel a certain way and they ignore you, have you accomplished your goals?

What each one of us, individually, feels is important may not even matter to the person sitting next to us.  And it shouldn't take long to find out if it ever will.  Whatever the case, it always hurts us if we take it personally but it may not affect the 'offender' at all.

This thread has helped me to understand why people stop participating on forums. I've seen a lot of people leave different forums, often in anger, hurt or frustration.  In most cases, they took something personally and in most of those cases it was never meant to be personal.  It's very difficult to write something that will be understood by everyone the way you intended it to be.  It may even be impossible to achieve that.  What I've learned during my time on forums is you have to give the author of a post some latitude.  You can't take something personally unless it's clearly directed at you.  There's no room for supposition if you want the lines of communication to remain open.

It has been suggested we can't unify but I see it more as we just aren't communicating well.  Most of our communication is done through forums and in other forms of writing.  And there's no more difficult way to get a point across than with words alone.

I think it's safe to say, for the most part, the members and friends of our community are sensitive to our needs.  I think there's a certain level of respect each one of us has for the other if only because we know what a difficult life this can be.  All we need is to put egos aside and listen to each other the best we can.  And if we find something offensive, ask the person what they meant before firing off a heated response.

Let cooler heads prevail.

Just a suggestion...

Julie

This topic has had its meanderings so whilst this is a little OT it has relevance IMO because it is by a girl 16 years post-op and apart from the generally interesting insight, she mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY    Sixteen Years Into Your Future

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PMshe mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY

See, that's the thing and what I see is the root of our problem. To you, and the author, perhaps those things are a problem for "any girl born XY". Sorry, but I don't see myself in 16 years or any time worried about having to stay silent about my childhood experiences for fear of outing myself. I don't now, why would I then? You can still talk about your childhood without saying oh yeah, I had a penis between my legs back then. The examples she gives- First date? I had a first date with a boy, though I was quite young at the time and my parents knew nothing of it. I also know gg's who have been lesbians their whole life and never dated boys. Playing with dolls? Did that too, and still do as a matter of fact. Lots of women don't make it to the prom or have babies, many of those things she mentions are also not restricted to women with transsexual history. Many of us do have children, though it's true we never bore any in our bodies.

There is a list (link below) of very interesting definitions by Kate Grimaldi, levels of stealth/passing which include how well you pass to yourself. There is a point where you remember yourself only as female; even though you may "know" better, you still remember being a girl. The level beyond that is when you simply see yourself as a gg.

http://www.beginninglifeforums.com/Definitions.htm#SPLevels

Interesting link Steffi. Having transitioned at nearly the same age as the author but 35.5 years ago, there is much she talks about that I can identifies with.

FairyGirl - interesting link.
I do take on board your general point, but you are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

A transwoman is always going to be aware of her past on some level.- Dilation alone would ensure that - and she will always have to be editing her past. 
I am not just being awkward, but IMO simply realistic. Inconvenient facts will HAVE to be avoided by silence or lies.
I have no doubt that the mind is capable of reconstructing the past to align better - I do in fact already have some inkling of that myself. I was saying to my Mum last night that although I obviously remember everything from my past, I somehow no longer remember actually being Him...... what it felt like .... it already seems to me that I have always been like this and who I am now, though I'm only 27 months RLE and 12 months HRT and am still acutely aware of presentation, getting read etc. But already some sort of disconnection is happening.  .....   

I also respectfully point out that however welcome, the state described in your link of yourself truly believing a past which does not actually square with the facts would be clinically defined as a delusion.   

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 07:54:17 PMyou are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

but sweetie I didn't go to one of those schools, and I personally detested football, and I absolutely did not deal with all the real world situations that can crop up. That was exactly my point. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it didn't happen to me. I do completely agree with you that those things can often be a problem for many of us. However the only objection I have, and what I was referring to as the root of the problem, is when people make blanket statements such as "things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY". I'm a girl born XY, and although I can identify with some of the abuse she mentioned, most of the things she saw as problems have simply not proven to be so in my experience.

I'm not denying or trying to belittle yours or anyone else's personal trials, I've got plenty of my own, and many in common with other women born transsexual. I just have a problem with people who assume to speak for me as part of an entire group of people when they don't even know me or what experiences I've had or not. I read an article not long ago, written by a professional crossdresser ("her" credentials? "She" wrote a book about it ) who stated emphatically that for us to think there is any difference between the weekend crossdresser and a transsexual is a myth. "She" felt that "she" could take it or leave it, so therefore everyone else should be able to as well. (And "she" should know, after all "she" wrote a book on crossdressing.)

Anyway, I hope that's a little more clear. I just really get frustrated with all the self-appointed spokespersons out there for "all" transsexuals.

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 07:54:17 PM
FairyGirl - interesting link.
I do take on board your general point, but you are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

A transwoman is always going to be aware of her past on some level.- Dilation alone would ensure that - and she will always have to be editing her past. 
I am not just being awkward, but IMO simply realistic. Inconvenient facts will HAVE to be avoided by silence or lies.
I have no doubt that the mind is capable of reconstructing the past to align better - I do in fact already have some inkling of that myself. I was saying to my Mum last night that although I obviously remember everything from my past, I somehow no longer remember actually being Him...... what it felt like .... it already seems to me that I have always been like this and who I am now, though I'm only 27 months RLE and 12 months HRT and am still acutely aware of presentation, getting read etc. But already some sort of disconnection is happening.  .....   

I also respectfully point out that however welcome, the state described in your link of yourself truly believing a past which does not actually square with the facts would be clinically defined as a delusion.

I would not speak as you are so certain on this, because like I noted this is one of those areas where there is a pretty wide chasm between those who transition young and those who transition older, which last time I checked, you did. It is also one of those areas where there is presumption made that is an attempt to invalidate ones personal experience.   While I have noticed it is fairly typical for this to be a problem for older transitioners, where most of their life was primarily male (male profession, marriage, kids, typical male life really) , this is rarely really a problem for younger transitioners.  Most people I know who begin transition before the age of 30 do not have much male baggage they carry.  I can speak pretty honestly about my childhood, my teenage years, and before transition, and nobody even gives me a second look. My profession and sector I work in, is female dominated as well.  Its not dishonesty on my part, I just look different. Can you say the same?    You are making this presumption on your own experiences, don't make it a generality that dismisses others experiences.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 04, 2009, 09:34:34 PM
.... this is rarely really a problem for younger transitioners.  Most people I know who begin transition before the age of 30 do not have much male baggage they carry.  I can speak pretty honestly about my childhood, my teenage years, and before transition, and nobody even gives me a second look. My profession and sector I work in, is female dominated as well.

Indeed.

There is, even for the younger ones, the factor of how well or poorly they passed for their "birth sex". Some of us were dismal failures and perceived as effeminate, Gay, or whatever from early in life (which is why I chuckle at the phrase "coming out" - some of us were never "in" in order to "come out"!), even long before anyone heard of the word "transsexual". I am sure many people, when they heard about our transitions, simply thought  "Well that makes sense."

One's experience through childhood and into their teens depends a lot on how they were seen by the adults around them and by their peers. Some of us "lived a girl's life" quite extensively in our early years and I am sure that for those who did, transition and life after is somewhat different from those who did not have that experience.

There is no "universal truth" in this, only individual experiences.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 05, 2009, 04:35:53 AM
Indeed.

There is, even for the younger ones, the factor of how well or poorly they passed for their "birth sex". Some of us were dismal failures and perceived as effeminate, Gay, or whatever from early in life (which is why I chuckle at the phrase "coming out" - some of us were never "in" in order to "come out"!), even long before anyone heard of the word "transsexual". I am sure many people, when they heard about our transitions, simply thought  "Well that makes sense."

One's experience through childhood and into their teens depends a lot on how they were seen by the adults around them and by their peers. Some of us "lived a girl's life" quite extensively in our early years and I am sure that for those who did, transition and life after is somewhat different from those who did not have that experience.

There is no "universal truth" in this, only individual experiences.

You can put me in that "dismal failures" group.  I never really passed as my assigned sex.

This discussion sounds like tribes such as the Arapaho, Sioux, Choctaw, Apache and Mohican tribes all getting together defining their affiliation with the term Native Americans.  Anyone on the outside would say they are all Native American tribes.  And all the arguing in the world with them isn't going to change their minds.

What they would walk away with is the belief that Native Americans just can't get along.

In the US there are citizens of all descents; Polish, Irish, Asian, Russian, etc.  And there is some segregation certain people desire.  But if the US is attacked, as what happened on 9/11, they all band together as one group, citizens of the United States.

There are groups attacking us all the time, some big, some small.  There is a negative social stigma attached to the term transgender.  You don't see near the level of outrage here about that as you do labeling within our community. 

And then there's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).  It has a listing called "Gender Identity Disorder".  It is listed under "Sexual Disorders and Dysfunctions".  Under 'Symptoms' GID is recognized by "A strong and persistent identification with the opposite gender. There is a sense of discomfort in their own gender and may feel they were 'born the wrong sex.' "  You can be sure when they say "gender" here, they mean birth gender.  So, according to this, there's a lot of people here who have a psychiatric disorder.

Under "Paraphilias and Sexual Disorders" you'll find: Transvestic Fetishism.  It's lumped in with Exhibitionism, Fetishism, Frotteurism, Pedophilia, Sexual Masochism, Sexual Sadism and Voyeurism.  BTW, Transvestic Fetishism is defined basically as MTF crossdressing.

The DSM links the two together.  So anyone wanting to find support for their prejudice towards trans______ can use this book to accomplish just that.

Saying 'I am this' or 'I am that' will not make people believe it.  When we have a widely recognized psychiatric manual saying our "condition" is a disorder and lumping it in with real disorders such as pedophilia; when society in general believes it's all in our heads and that we're messed up; and when certain very vocal groups perpetuate the negative stigma; it's going to be tough to get anyone "out there" to listen to us, a rather small and seemingly fractured minority.

But if we ever expect to make headway, we have to stop bickering amongst ourselves.  If we want to fight, we should be fighting to remove anything related to trans to be removed from any manual of psychiatric disorders and the DSM is the best place to start.  From there, things should only get better.

I hope each and every one of us never has to face prejudice, intolerance, hatred or discrimination.  I hope we all will be seen for exactly who we are.  But that won't make it so, not as long as things remain the same.  Social change can only happen through effort and unity.

Julie

<flamebait>
what is this now? a hbs orgy?

what's the point of a support forum if there is an attitude of "i've got my fix and you peoples with oem equipment can go to hell"?

</flamebait>

Some people depend upon a successful transition in order to simply have a life worth living.  Imagine if you will transition as a medical need.  Then imagine transition as an open lifestyle and think about the people who post every detail of their transitions on the Internet.  Essentially what has happened is that Society has become immensely "trans aware".  Now people are on the lookout for the tell tale signs of women and men who have transitioned, it's like a game people play, "spot the trans person", because people who would use their ability to spot someone who transitioned (to harm them or single them out) have been trained to do so by "trans" people.  Yes, we have educated everyone on how to spot us, everyone including those who would oppress us, not to mention being harmed by others who have transitioned.  So if there are any hard feelings for openly trans people, it may stem from those of us who are now unable to have the lives we needed due to "trans awareness" and being unable to integrate and be treated as human men and human women after transition.

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Post Merge: October 05, 2009, 02:51:50 PM

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Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PM
This topic has had its meanderings so whilst this is a little OT it has relevance IMO because it is by a girl 16 years post-op and apart from the generally interesting insight, she mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY   Sixteen Years Into Your Future

She can only speak for her experience, she can't speak for any girl born xy, saying it like you did makes it sound like every woman who transitions is going to remain miserable.

In my own experiences I have so much not had her experience that I had to seriously wonder if her article is fake.  I suppose if someone constantly dwelled on the past after transition and constantly compared herself to other women instead of embracing life... then perhaps one could remain that miserable, constantly being sorrowful over a lost childhood.  Personally I moved on and no longer even think about my childhood and the men and women who accept me as a woman never question me about my childhood, I don't think about my childhood.  I live in the present.  I have created a female past for myself by doing so.

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 05, 2009, 02:38:25 PM
She can only speak for her experience, she can't speak for any girl born xy, saying it like you did makes it sound like every woman who transitions is going to remain miserable.

In my own experiences I have so much not had her experience that I had to seriously wonder if her article is fake.  I suppose if someone constantly dwelled on the past after transition and constantly compared herself to other women instead of embracing life... then perhaps one could remain that miserable, constantly being sorrowful over a lost childhood.  Personally I moved on and no longer even think about my childhood and the men and women who accept me as a woman never question me about my childhood, I don't think about my childhood.  I live in the present.  I have created a female past for myself by doing so.

That's the point I was trying to make, and I don't get what is so hard to comprehend about that. The only separating I'm doing is separating myself as an individual from those all-inclusive "everybody's just like me" statements so many like to throw around for oddball reasons like we care.

I like what you said about creating a female past, which is what the link I posted was really about, nothing to do with being "delusional". It is about realizing that yes, even back then, we've been female all along.

OK everyone.
I apologise for any and all sweeping generalisations I have ever made, here or anywhere else.

In my opinion it is a simple and inescapable fact that if you transitioned into Stealth anytime after about age 5 you ARE going to need to lie about your past - whether consciously, unconsciously, outright, by inference, by omission or any way at all, to some degree you ARE going to lie.

Instead of having a sensible discussion about the what's and why's things quickly degenerate into the sort of hair-splitting that reminds me of when President Clinton did-not-have-sex-with-that-woman. 

I am clearly upsetting people so it's best if I just drop out of this thread and leave it to those who would rather speak "fairly honestly" to each other.