I'm with you, Heather.  I've had this discussion with other women my age.  A waitress will come up to us and say: What can I get you guys?  We all look at each other, remembering a time when there were Guys and Dolls, and roll our eyes.

I try to remind myself that it is a move to de-gendering our culture, which should be a good thing for us TGs, but I still don't like it. 

(Just getting old, I guess.  These young whippersnappers show no respect! )

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 05, 2009, 07:32:01 AM
I'm with you, Heather.  I've had this discussion with other women my age.  A waitress will come up to us and say: What can I get you guys?  We all look at each other, remembering a time when there were Guys and Dolls, and roll our eyes.

- Kate

The whole guy/dude applied to a group of people regardless of their gender has been around for quite a while.  I too hate it and the first few times it was applied to me, I thought I had been read.

While that was true a couple of times, in all other cases it was just a busy server trying to deal with a crowd.  In other occasions where it is more formal or less busy, the proper honorific of  ma'am, miss (bless them!), madam, or ladies has been used.

I don't particularly think that degendering is a conscious effort on the will of society and it may be unique to the USA.  Does anyone from across the big pond have an opinion?

-Sandy

Quote from: heatherrose on October 05, 2009, 07:20:37 AM

"No way, man!" "Later, dude." and "What are you guys doing?" Just when
I think I got all the answers they change the friggin' questions.

Heather, I can relate to the irritation, especially the 'guys' part. In the northeast (NY, NJ, MA) it is commonly "youse guys". When I moved here to GA and was managing restaurants, I would often hear servers refer to the guests (male or female) as guys - "Hi guys, I'm so-n-so, what can I getcha?", "let me know when you guys are ready", "thanks guys, see you soon". This used to irk me to no end - and this was before I knew I was trans and that I was a woman. I worked very, very hard to train these young 'kids' to not call their guests 'guys', especially the women. It might be okay for your friends in high school, but not for adults who are paying good money for good food and service and may be entertaining clients who are there on business from some other corner of the world where ma'am, sir, ladies, gentlemen are the proper terms used in proper conversation. JMO.

Deanna

Yeah gals say "dude" all the time even "bro" I've heard it. They say "guys" like "you guys" etc. a lot of what you gals are hearing are "background noise" not personal. Some may be what I'd call "probing" they're experimenting to see if you'll startle or get offended. Of course the best thing is to not react.

Just this morning Julie and I were talking about the whole reaction thing to the way others gender you.  Transition is both physical and mental.  Part of the mental transition is getting to that place where you don't crumble when someone mis-genders you (my opinion).

I told her that while I'm not going to walk up to someone and say "Hi! I'm a ->-bleeped-<-.  BTW, my name is Julie.  How are you?" I also am not going to get all bent out of shape if they gender me male.  I do, however, reserve the right to correct them if I wish. 

When I finally felt peace in this life is when I knew how others judge me does not define me.  That's freedom.

Julie

I think the issue of "dude" and "guys" is getting blown out of proportion. A lot of other girls (GGs) I know say dude, or use the general term "guys" when referring to a group of mixed-gender people. I don't see what the problem is. Instead of someone saying, "Hey guys!" when referring to a large group, would you rather they say something like, "Hey miss, sir, sir, miss, miss, sir!" or "Hey people!"?

"Dude" and "Guys" are pretty much slang at this point, and have been for a while. They are general terms people use, and do not necessarily have the same original meaning. I don't think anyone is thinking, "Oh my! My gender identity is so insignificant! I guess I should start using male-specific pronouns to further denounce my gender identity!" Do you really think GGs think that much about their gender identity?

~Sarah

I think this is cultural and geographic,

In Australia, If I walked into my lab of some 6-8 mainly female, ranging from 35ish-18ish, and said good morning girls, or ladies, they would think I was smoking something that Tekla had sent me. Yes its very much "Hi Guys". At  a high class restaurant; they'd have fresh straw on the floor, , Good evening sir and ma'am. Can I get you ladies a drink etc.

Generally Australia is very relaxed over such pronouns. It would ony be offensive if said sneeringly. " Good Evening,   "Ladies?"
If some one said Ma'am it would probably be at a funeral or A State Function

Cindy

Well, out here in the provinces I haven't heard dude when addressing a woman, especially *ahem* a woman of a certain age.  But then we're so backward I've even had young people hold the door for me.  (Not often, but it has happened.  I didn't even have my walker at the time. )

- Kate

Quote from: heatherrose on October 05, 2009, 05:47:51 PM

Granted, guys has been allowed to become
commonly used but come on dude, DUDE?

Pretty much yes amongst the younger set.  When I started transition I enjoyed it, even though they also called women coworkers 'dude' as well.


Jay

QuoteWell, out here in the provinces I haven't heard dude when addressing a woman, especially *ahem* a woman of a certain age.  But then we're so backward I've even had young people hold the door for me.  (Not often, but it has happened.  I didn't even have my walker at the time. )

- Kate

I hold doors for everyone, such as those who want to enter right behind me.  There's no point in letting it swing shut in their faces.

A co-worker, about age 40, addresses all women, including those 40 years his senior, as "Miss".
I find that a bit over the top.

This is an area where I get confused. I'm called ma'am 90% of the time but it doesn't bother me a bit to be called sir. We all want to pass but let's be honest, it takes alot of time and money unless you're one of the lucky few. Without make-up I'm called ma'am 40/50% of the time but so what? When I just need to run to the post office or to get a few groceries I don't do make-up. Read the post about going out with other transgendered people. Almost everyone said they don't because its easier to get outed. I firmly believe that we all think we are more paasable than we really are? So what? Somebody calls me sir, big deal I've been a man for 43 years, am I supposed to freak and not go out or give up because some person called me sir? My goodness, we have found the courage to get this far! Its not easy but its better than the alternative.

Quote from: sneakersjay on October 05, 2009, 09:53:01 PM
Pretty much yes amongst the younger set.  When I started transition I enjoyed it, even though they also called women coworkers 'dude' as well.

Oh, I enjoy it every single time still.

And I echo another person's comment about not wanting to correct people because I'm only part time...I know I don't pass (at least not with voice) so it seems awkward to correct them on something I know will cause tension. Once the 'ma'am' leaves their lips the damage is done...I know anything after that is just forced because I insisted, and what's worse, they might bring it up to someone I was already passing to and outing me, albeit good-intentioned. So do I bring it up and shove myself into the spotlight? Or stay silent?

I've always seen "you guys" as being an attempt to distinguish the plural you from the singular you.  As in, "Im talking to all of you guys right now, not just to you, Kate."  *shrugs*  But then, I guess I'm young enough that I've never known anything else.  That and I really detest being lumped in with "you ladies". 

Now, I've never heard anyone refer to a girl as "dude".  Maybe it's regional.  Or maybe I just don't hang with a young enough crowd.  I have heard "dude" used frequently as a general exclamation like "whoa" or "wow".

---

I also wanted to say, Kate, that I think you handled that waitress very well.  You were polite, yet firm.  Very diplomatically done.    I have to say, I really admire the way you handle coming out and dealing with issues around transition.  Dare I say I wish I had your balls?     

Quote from: CindyJames on October 05, 2009, 05:33:09 PMGenerally Australia is very relaxed over such pronouns. It would ony be offensive if said sneeringly. " Good Evening,   "Ladies?"
If some one said Ma'am it would probably be at a funeral or A State Function

This is very true, I hear it occasionally in Australia but mostly all this sir and ma'am is an American thing it seems.