I think Julie Marie's "Native American" analogy hit the mark.

Prior to dating a trans person, I had no idea what it was all about, no idea what dysphoria was...and like the vast majority of cis-people, thought that being trans was all down to some queerness of some sort or other.  It didn't matter when or if or how much someone transitioned...in fact the whole "transition" thing was opaque anyway.

The bottom line is that because the cis community has genital/mental gender alignment, the whole "my gender is defined by my brain alone" thing doesn't register at all.  We, the generalized cis world, take a genito-centric view.  A baby arrives and the medical staff declare "boy" or "girl" depending on genital anatomy (or maybe "umm" for some rare cases).

Yes, it's wrong, it's ignorant, etc. but the upshot of this is that, to them, cutting your dingle-dangle off doesn't make you a woman...and that's as far as the generalized cis perspective currently sees.

By virtue of being able to participate in this community, I now understand a whole lot more than I did before and I can completely grok the point of view that Matilda, Natasha et al have on this - but that is only because I have learnt from this community!

Get it yet?  Does the point register?

You won't clue in the clueless masses with a barrage of righteous indignation and certainly not by squabbling among yourselves.  You're currently all "native americans" whether you like it or not.  Change this by collectively engaging with the world just as you've engaged with me here!

(And this doesn't need to mean outing oneself of going de-stealth...just starting with a little overarching solidarity in a place like this would be a win).

I agree with Jane & Matilda,
I am a stealth girl also, it's a personal thing with me. I admire and envey those out there. Job concerns are my biggset problem. I still need to support my family and if being stealth helps, so be it.
PS. as my hair and boobs grow , now A cup I don't know how much longer I can last
Sarah

Quote from: sarahF on October 10, 2009, 08:10:14 AM
I agree with Jane & Matilda,
I am a stealth girl also, it's a personal thing with me. I admire and envey those out there. Job concerns are my biggset problem. I still need to support my family and if being stealth helps, so be it.
PS. as my hair and boobs grow , now A cup I don't know how much longer I can last
Sarah

Sarah, I don't think you understand what stealth means.  Stealth means you have FULLY transitioned, living as your identified gender and done with both social and physical aspects of transition, and assimiliated as your target sex, without many people knowing of your past.  IT is the opposite of not transitioning and living as your assigned/birth  sex.  Stealth means transition is done with.  From what it sounds like you are not even close to that point, and are just starting transition. 

I have no interest in being a member of any special, political organisation.  That's not the reason I transitioned & I view this sort of implied "debt" to the community utterly absurd.  My experience with activists, trans activists specifically, is limited to the internet, and from what I've been able to gather, trans activists are generally those people that can't be stealth to begin with.  Most of them are late transitioners, most of them are pre-op/non-op, and also most of them are lesbian/gay/bi.  They're not only fighting for equal rights as pre-op/non-op trans but also as gay/lesbian/bi.  There's nothing wrong with that.  We live in a democracy & people have the right to do whatever they want with their lives , but please understand that not everybody has the same interests.  Pure & simple.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 10, 2009, 01:30:14 PM
Sarah, I don't think you understand what stealth means.  Stealth means you have FULLY transitioned, living as your identified gender and done with both social and physical aspects of transition, and assimiliated as your target sex, without many people knowing of your past.  IT is the opposite of not transitioning and living as your assigned/birth  sex.  Stealth means transition is done with.  From what it sounds like you are not even close to that point, and are just starting transition.

That seems to be an unnecessarily exclusive interpretation.  Stealth is, by definition, a term referring to the trait of covertness.  So surely it's more about the concealment of a current or previous transition, not the completion?  Aside from those who have historical knowledge, if one can pass, live and present entirely as their gender identity, then aren't they effectively living stealthily?  I mean, what's the practical difference?

Quote from: Matilda on October 05, 2009, 05:33:58 PM
Sigh.  People never learn.   Here we are again making sweeping generalizations about everybody else without knowing absolutely anything about the other persons' lives.

No one here is making sweeping generalizations.  By its definition, a sweeping generalization is an all inclusive statement.  Like "All TGs are late transitioners" or "Every TG can be stealth."   No one here is saying "every" or "all".  They are sharing their personal experiences.

Quote from: Blanche on October 11, 2009, 08:33:06 AM
I have no interest in being a member of any special, political organisation.  That's not the reason I transitioned & I view this sort of implied "debt" to the community utterly absurd.

I don't think anyone is trying to pressure anybody else into being an activist.  Rather the intent seems to be to create awareness that working towards stealth does not guarantee success.  And at some point in your life someone or something could "out" you.  And if that happens, wouldn't it be better to live in a society where TGs are treated equally? 

From what I understand, the OP was saying those who identify as living in stealth are critical of the very same people who can be a factor in bringing about education, teaching tolerance and helping end the prejudice and discrimination that compel so many of us to seek stealth.  That would be like criticizing the person with the machete clearing the way in front of you while trying to get through the jungle.  It makes no sense to do that.

The facts are these:
     -There's a very negative stigma attached to people who cross socially accpetable gender lines.
     -Society is more prejudiced against men who cross the gender lines than women.  (I'm using birth gender for this statement.)
     -Stealth is desirable because it dramatically reduces or eliminates having to deal with the prejudice and ignorance.
     -For some people being socially stealth (being able to interact everyday without prejudice) is not an option or not their choice.
     For some people being socially stealth is extremely important.
     If you are known to be or are thought to be TG, you could face prejudice, discrimination, ostracization, intolerance, hatred and other negative reactions.
     -The only way to eliminate the negative reactions is by eliminating the negative stigma and that requires (among other things) education, open minds and grass roots support.
     -Change doesn't just happen.

We can debate this until we are blue in the face.  One can say. "I'm not like you!" or deny their birth gender all they want, but the things we fear most will not change unless we bond as a single force and fight them.

President Obama just gave a speech before the HRC. http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/site/Ecard?ecard_id=1061&autologin=true  In this speech he uttered the word "Transgender".  I know of no other president that ever did that publicly.  He also used "gender identity" when talking about those who should be treated equally.  ENDA has some great momentum and it includes TGs.  Things are getting better and probably should keep getting better but we cannot forget that the things we've worked for can be taken away in a second if we don't keep fighting. 

What will keep us in the background, what will prevent us from enjoying the same rights as anyone else, what will slow down our social progress is infighting, separation and animosity.  No one should be guilted into joining in and helping but those who are out there should not be criticized for what they do.

Julie

Note: Definitions given are not open for interpretation.  If you choose to interpret them you will lose the intended meaning.  This is my view based on my life experience and should not be construed otherwise.  I speak for no one other than myself.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
No one here is making sweeping generalizations.  By its definition, a sweeping generalization is an all inclusive statement.  Like "All TGs are late transitioners" or "Every TG can be stealth."   No one here is saying "every" or "all".  They are sharing their personal experiences.

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PMshe mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY

but someone did use an all inclusive statement to point to a blog on someone else's personal hardships with transitioning. Several of us responded to that, stating only that the particular hardships mentioned as examples did not appear in our own personal experiences. There are enough people out there speaking for us already, it's perfectly okay to point out that the emperor's clothes don't fit everyone, to mix metaphors. That's not to diminish anyone's experiences, including the person who posted it, just to say hey wait a minnit, I happen to HATE football!

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
I speak for no one other than myself.

Thank you dear, that's all we were saying too.

I dont really think theres any difinitive list of things tg people share beyond gid.

To answer the initial question: I find im not sure, perhaps at times. I've been full time 3 years, and not many people i know now know my past... the number of conversations with trans in that come up and i have to sit there and contribute just enough to not look out of place... i tend to go down the middle ground, or supportive in some cases. I dont quite think theres any point in hostility.... afterall we were there once. I do however have a big problem with those that are out, and demand others are out too... that stealth is 'another closet'... I think to them, being out is a crutch really.

Holy cow!! I was just browsing through this thread and found this link someone posted:
http://www.transsexual.org/longterm.html

Here is a quote from it that hits me so hard!

Quote
I found that, perfectly accepted by neighbors, I was included naturally as a woman in their lives. This was wonderful, until topics of discussion turned to matters of growing up, of childhood, or of biological functioning and sex. Here, I had to fall mute. I am hopeless at the basic human skill of lying, so making up a false history was not an option. Additionally, lacking real knowledge, it would be easy for me to be caught. I was forever forced to fall silent, made eager to try to change the subject. It was my last recourse to just nod and force the odd empty laugh when other women spoke of their first date, or first period, or childhood toys, or basic life experiences. Sometimes it was hard to hold back tears at what I had missed. Such situations make me feel alien, outside, passing for human. Excluded from life.

At first I could tolerate this difficult situation. But as the years progressed, it became increasingly impossible to bear. If women friends spoke of the differences between men and women, I writhed inside myself...for what they speculated about, I actually knew for certain, first hand. I had been a kind of spy in the camp of the men for almost two decades, and my transition and life had taught me directly the differences as they relate to being a woman. Such knowledge as they could only ponder, I actually knew, but had to stay mute about. If I were to offer the slightest particle of wisdom, it might raise suspicion, certainly speaking would raise eyebrows...how could anyone know such things?

This is the first time I have EVER seen articulated EXACTLY the stresses I had in my transition.  I passed well enough to be taken for a natal female.  That being the case, when normal female conversations were brought up and people asked about my past, I had to be careful with what I said, I felt I had to lie.  this was okay at first, an acceptable sacrifice, but over time it became unbearable.  I felt, "damn, even when I'm finally me I can't REALY be me - a me which includes all of my past experiences".  I eventually started outing myself and it wasn't long after that I de-transitioned.

Thanks for such an awesome link!  I really thought I was alone in my sadness during transition.  I mean, don't get me wrong, transition was awesome - probably one of the most satisfying experiences in my life, but having to deceive those around me and constantly be on guard - that ultimately was a price that was too high for me.

EDIT: I need to include more from the article.  This is soooo amazing for me.  I don't feel alone anymore in my experiences.  I transitioned young and I still had these difficulties.

QuotePassing perfectly can mean living in fear of being found out. It can mean hiding and covering up. It means keeping a secret. Some people find this easy, I find it painful. For me, passing perfectly and staying hidden very often means having to keep carefully guarded my greatest achievement, my most difficult adventure, the barely survived fountainhead of much of my wisdom. It means censoring my life, and to some degree my very identity.

Was not the reason I went through transition to be free? To be able to be myself without hiding? And now I find myself hiding again, for a similar reason...something about myself too terrible to admit.

I dont think passing perfectly means living in fear of being found out.. surely thats passing 'not quite perfectly'?

I do see thier point though, I'm in a similar boat. Pretty much everyone I know, knows only a girl, and that gets sticky at times... when we discuss girl things... mostly childhood and feminine issues... I'm totally comfortable with the boy talk, and chaging around friends, but its the discussion of periods, the pill, examinations, things in our teens that i fall over on. I've lied a few times, creatively suggesting one thing, while not saying it... its not QUITE a lie right? Yes, its quite emotionally heavy at times, but its not something i chose, and id NEVER choose to out myself. I'm happy just being one of the girls.

Its a fine line to tread, i dont think everyone can cope with it. Perhaps I'm a fast learner, or im just naturally this way. But I manage to break the uncomfortableness down and take part without taking part...

Though my most uncomfortable was over the summer when I was working home in Ireland, i was stood outside work having a cigarette, and i had a minor stomach cramp... i hadnt eaten much that day... the boss was next to me, and she sees this, and asks 'is it your time of the month?' im like 'erm,' and she takes that for me being embarassed about my period.... and gets all hyper sympathetic.... cue 'i dont want to watch' cringe sitcom moment....

Quote from: finewine on October 11, 2009, 08:44:02 AM
That seems to be an unnecessarily exclusive interpretation.  Stealth is, by definition, a term referring to the trait of covertness.  So surely it's more about the concealment of a current or previous transition, not the completion?  Aside from those who have historical knowledge, if one can pass, live and present entirely as their gender identity, then aren't they effectively living stealthily?  I mean, what's the practical difference?

Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

I think thier point was that 'stealth' represents a degree of 'covert action' on the part of a transitioned person to maintain that 'non trans' status. Not that stealth was what 'in the closet' meant.


It depends on your situation, Theres not much to maintain stealth really... I'm pre op, but live essentiallty 'stealth' Nobody knows, nobody can find out really. within a year I'll be post op hopefully, and things wont really change. If you look like a duck, sound like a duck, walk, swim and quack like a duck, people are going to just think 'duck'... it doesnt take any effort if its all natural.

This will obviously raise the whole 'omg in another closet' and 'deceit' lines of topic... oh joy.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

That definition implies that people that choose not to go "stealth" haven't transitioned.
It's yet again, the implication that going stealth is the only way to "successfully" transition.

It is not.
A fully transitioned woman can accept her past without being somehow stuck in transition and/or failing at being a woman.
A fully transitioned man can accept his past without being somehow stuck in transition and/or failing at being a man.

Implying that the only way for me to be a "man" is to sever all ties with everyone who knows, (in my case) move to a different country, and pretend that my past never happened, actively lie to everyone I get to know as the "new" me, is rude, at best.

Well no...
you can be out, and transitioned.... I dont think that was her point.

And stealth doesnt neceserily mean NOBODY can know in my book... family and perhaps a lover yes... anyone else?  To me, its when nobody can tell, and are just another woman or man in your life.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 13, 2009, 09:58:31 AM
Well no...
you can be out, and transitioned.... I dont think that was her point.

What she said, word for word, is "stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase".
It may not have been her intended point, but it is exactly what she said.

She MEANT, stealth isnt another word for 'not transitioned living as a male and not told anyone...

'stealth means you've transitioned = means you're post op, socially ajusted and living life without mentioning trans. Where you would literally HAVE to tell people, to  be 'out'...


On topic: I think theres more hostility TOWARDS stealth transpeople, or those that wish to be stealth, from those that are OUT as trans.... there seems a deffiante 'you're not fulfilling your obligation to fight for our rights and are being a coward' lines...

First, I'd like to point out, that it's impossible for you, or me, to know for a fact what another person meant, if what they meant and what they've written are two separate things that is.
On a forum, where tone of voice and bodylanguage are inaccessible, all we have to go on is what other people have written, word for word.
I for one take offence to when a person reads something I've written and then treats it as if I've "meant" something else, something I haven't written and as such I would advice against seeing something "other" than a person has written in their posts.

What they wrote and what you proclaim they meant are two different things. Unless she's expressedly told you what she meant, you can not know for a fact whether they meant anything other than what they wrote. If she told you what she meant, she could just as easily come here and explain what she meant. It's not your place to correct the meaning of other people's posts.

That reading into things concept works both ways you know?

When I read her statement, I wasnt looking for a reason to be offended, just interested in the topic... perhaps initial perceptions of a subject colour what people read? even word for word.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 13, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
That reading into things concept works both ways you know?

When I read her statement, I wasnt looking for a reason to be offended, just interested in the topic... perhaps initial perceptions of a subject colour what people read? even word for word.

I responded to what she said, word for word.
I wasn't looking for reasons to be offended.
I responded to the actual words in the post.

not really... you decided that stealth means 'not accepting ones past'

All she 'literally' said, word for word,

is that stealth is a term used by those that are transitioned.... if someone says they are stealth, then they are post transition -nowhere does she say its the only way.

-not some pre transition phase. - someone was confused, and thought stealth = in the closet. she corrected them on that statement.

Thats her literal words, and literal meanings... you're reading into it hon.