You are reading into my words now.

If you define stealth as being done with transition then it implies that non-stealth means you're not done with transition.
I find that definition inaccurate as well as insulting.

Simple as that.

'implies' = Reading into.

I thought you were taking things 'literally'

Nowhere does she say 'literally' that its the ONLY way to be done with transition.

Im sorry, this is going so far off topic, and looks like you're after any excuse to be offended. Nobody else seems to think it was a bad statement, infact it only further fuels the idea of the hostility coming from the oposite direction to that in the thread title.

Someone want to remind me what this topic was about?  HA!

-={LR}=-

The fact that I'm the only one who's commented on it does not mean that no one else thinks it's a bad statement.
If someone states as a fact that "X = Y" then taking it to imply that absence of X = absence of Y doesn't require you to read anything in the post other than what the posts says.

My insistence that "stealth =/= successful transition" is hardly me showing any hostility towards people who are stealth, it's me objecting to the implication that "successful transition = stealth".
Disagreeing with a false statement is not showing hostility to the personal choices of the person who made the statement. Being offended by an obviously false statement is not showing hostility to the personal choices of the person who made the statement. Thus my continued taking offence to the presumption that "stealth = successful transition" (which translates to no-stealth = no-successful transition) does not constitute hostility towards people who make the personal choice to go stealth, nor their personal choice to go stealth.
Continuing to state that disagreement = hostility doesn't make it true.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

I personally found the quote lacking in depth to properly explain itself.  If literally stealth means you have transitioned that is fine, except no one defined what transition meant - and boy can it mean different things to different people.  Does this mean that all people who have transitioned are stealth or just that if you are stealth you have transitioned?  Gets confusing based on the quote - not so cut and dried.

The golden cherry on top was the assertion that if finewine doesn't know about stealth then finewine has a lot to learn.  Based on the specific description given, with its limited wording, I'm not even sure *I* know what stealth is even more, and I used to live a stealth lifestyle.

Miniar you are not alone.

I guess this thread is why there is "Stealth hostility toward those who are out or still transitioning" He, he.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

Well, not quite.  But first let's define stealth according to Webster's then how it applies to TGs.

Main Entry: 1stealth
Pronunciation: \ˈstelth\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
Date: 13th century

1 a archaic : theft b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information — Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

I'd say the second definition is the one the person who originally used the word when applying it to living in a gender opposite your birth gender (LGOBG).  Specifically "imperceptibly" is most likely the key word.

If that is how the word was originally applied in reference to LGOBG then anyone who can move imperceptibly through society without their birth gender being questioned is living in stealth.

Agreed?

Next question - Is it generally accepted that being stealth is a full time state of being?  In other words, you can't be stealth if you don't live full time in the gender you in which you are stealth.  Or can you be stealth just when you go out?

To me there's varying degrees of stealth, from 100% where absolutely no one in your everyday life knows, no one has any doubt about your gender and those who know your history are out of your life completely to "when you go out" stealth where you can go out into public and interact with people without your presentation raising any questions about your gender.

Maybe someone should start a new thread so we can all come to an agreement how stealth should be defined.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 04:00:10 PM
I guess this thread is why there is "Stealth hostility toward those who are out or still transitioning" He, he.

-={LR}=-

There certainly seems to be two sides, doesn't there?

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 13, 2009, 06:16:03 PM
[...]
Main Entry: stealth
[...]
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information — Nat Hentoff>
[...]
]I'd say the second definition is the one the person who originally used the word when applying it to living in a gender opposite your birth gender (LGOBG).  Specifically "imperceptibly" is most likely the key word.

Yes, that was how I intuitively interpreted the term in this context.   I do, apparently,  "have a lot to learn" about how special interest groups seek to redefine terminology in ways that a different from common use.

Aside from the sometimes pejorative use of the term "in the closet", it would seem to me that this implies the very attributes of stealth as per the common definition.  After all, being in a state of "stealth" implies a potential 3rd party observer (how can one be in stealth to oneself?).  If ones trans history is imperceptible to a 3rd party observer, then are you not in "stealth" irrespective of where in the transition process you are?  I mean...it's not like you go around with a birth certificate taped to your forehead, is it.

Quote
Maybe someone should start a new thread so we can all come to an agreement how stealth should be defined.

Hehe...as long as you don't hold your breath for unanimous agreement.  Personally, I don't think this is a big issue. So some random internet personality gets their knickers in a twist over a definition or who is/is not included in it - so what?  Personally, of all the issues this community should be concerned with, this one is stultifying.

Quite simply, the dictionary definitions do not apply in this case.  There is a common community definition that is being used, not the dictionary definition. 

The community definition is such:
A post-transition phase where one has reached a point where they are no living as their birth sex, and that people in their lives are unaware of said persons birth sex.

Hopefully that clarifies things.  If you have not transitioned, you are by definition not stealth...you are in the closet, and there is a big difference.  One transition is over and done with, the other transition has yet to take place.  One cannot go stealth, while living as their birth sex, because one has not yet transitioned.

Stealth and in-the-closet are two different places.  One transition is done with, the other transition has not even started.  These are commonly used definitions within the community...and yes, its pretty clear, you have much to learn.

Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

If you think this is bad start a new topic called something like "TS will transition."  or "What is a true TS" and watch the sparks fly 

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

Exactly why I have not commented since my last post.


Janet

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:31:49 PM
Quite simply, the dictionary definitions do not apply in this case.  There is a common community definition that is being used, not the dictionary definition. 

The community definition is such:
A post-transition phase where one has reached a point where they are no living as their birth sex, and that people in their lives are unaware of said persons birth sex.

Hopefully that clarifies things.  If you have not transitioned, you are by definition not stealth...you are in the closet, and there is a big difference.  One transition is over and done with, the other transition has yet to take place.  One cannot go stealth, while living as their birth sex, because one has not yet transitioned.

Stealth and in-the-closet are two different places.  One transition is done with, the other transition has not even started.  These are commonly used definitions within the community...and yes, its pretty clear, you have much to learn.

Thanks for clarifying hon, I got what you said first time round... I figured it was pretty obvious, and its quite a valid true point.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 14, 2009, 12:09:10 PM
Thanks for clarifying hon, I got what you said first time round... I figured it was pretty obvious, and its quite a valid true point.

Well I personally have no vested interest or parochial agenda in whatever the definition is - it matters not one whit to me (indeed, the only reason I chime in at all on these threads is simply to get my head around some of the diverse perspectives at play out there). I guess I'm just confused as to why, if  the community definition is so common and obviousness of it so self-evident, there seems to be so much fuss and disagreement over it.

Quote... you have much to learn.

Oh I don't doubt it.  Although it could also be that as I have no stake in the term, I see the whole issue as Wendy1974 so eloquently described it

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to pressure anybody else into being an activist.  Rather the intent seems to be to create awareness that working towards stealth does not guarantee success.  And at some point in your life someone or something could "out" you.  And if that happens, wouldn't it be better to live in a society where TGs are treated equally? 

From what I understand, the OP was saying those who identify as living in stealth are critical of the very same people who can be a factor in bringing about education, teaching tolerance and helping end the prejudice and discrimination that compel so many of us to seek stealth.  That would be like criticizing the person with the machete clearing the way in front of you while trying to get through the jungle.  It makes no sense to do that.

The facts are these:
     -There's a very negative stigma attached to people who cross socially accpetable gender lines.
     -Society is more prejudiced against men who cross the gender lines than women.  (I'm using birth gender for this statement.)
     -Stealth is desirable because it dramatically reduces or eliminates having to deal with the prejudice and ignorance.
     -For some people being socially stealth (being able to interact everyday without prejudice) is not an option or not their choice.
     For some people being socially stealth is extremely important.
     If you are known to be or are thought to be TG, you could face prejudice, discrimination, ostracization, intolerance, hatred and other negative reactions.
     -The only way to eliminate the negative reactions is by eliminating the negative stigma and that requires (among other things) education, open minds and grass roots support.
     -Change doesn't just happen.

The number of people living stealth is very small.  I don't see how outing ourselves could help at all.  But one thing is for sure, we've fought a long hard battle to be where we are.  Wishing that we out ourselves to fight a cause, I don't care what kind of cause it is, is wrong & selfish.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
President Obama just gave a speech before the HRC. http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/site/Ecard?ecard_id=1061&autologin=true  In this speech he uttered the word "Transgender".  I know of no other president that ever did that publicly.  He also used "gender identity" when talking about those who should be treated equally.  ENDA has some great momentum and it includes TGs.  Things are getting better and probably should keep getting better but we cannot forget that the things we've worked for can be taken away in a second if we don't keep fighting. 

What will keep us in the background, what will prevent us from enjoying the same rights as anyone else, what will slow down our social progress is infighting, separation and animosity.  No one should be guilted into joining in and helping but those who are out there should not be criticized for what they do.

Julie

Note: Definitions given are not open for interpretation.  If you choose to interpret them you will lose the intended meaning.  This is my view based on my life experience and should not be construed otherwise.  I speak for no one other than myself.[/color][/font]

This is another common misconception on this website. That everybody is "American".  I'm Swiss & what president Obama says or doesn't say doesn't affect me in the slightest .

Quote from: Blanche on October 15, 2009, 06:12:41 AM
The number of people living stealth is very small.  I don't see how outing ourselves could help at all.  But one thing is for sure, we've fought a long hard battle to be where we are.  Wishing that we out ourselves to fight a cause, I don't care what kind of cause it is, is wrong & selfish.

This is another common misconception on this website. That everybody is "American".  I'm Swiss & what president Obama says or doesn't say doesn't affect me in the slightest .

Actually, I probably think the number living stealth is MUCH higher... not every transperson goes on the internet 'community' and a lot dont go near any community... just live. I agree with you though Blanche... I fought for MY life to be as its meant to be, there are so many trans people out there that dont want to help themselves, why should we break out backs for those that cant be bothered anyway?

Also, Not american either \o/. Obama is only a new political figure for me to satirise

Okay I researched this, and I found several good articles/pages on the internet that discuss the meaning of stealth as it applies to the transsexual comunity. What I noticed is that they are all pretty much in agreement that "stealth" does NOT include hanging about on transgender support forums proclaiming to everyone in the world with a computer how "stealth" you are. By those definitions, no one here is stealth by reason of posting here in the first place. One page really hit the nail on the head when it said the term was seriously overloaded.

Anytime we try to cram people into little pigeonholes there will always be those who won't fit, who can't fit, who refuse to fit, and who question the relevance of pigeonholes to begin with. That's fine and I wouldn't want it any other way. The world would be damned boring if we were all cookie cutter people.

Quote from: FairyGirl on October 15, 2009, 11:55:58 AMBy those definitions, no one here is stealth by reason of posting here in the first place....

I am going to take exception to that because being "out" on the Internet is no way the same as being "out" in 3D.

There is a reason why I come to the forums to try to help but have NEVER been to any kind of group-anything involving TS.

Sweetie I wasn't agreeing, just repeating the general attitude of what I had read, as I prefaced it by saying "by those definitions". My second paragraph was to question any such pat definitions. I agree with you that the internet is not the same, and I'm thankful for those like you who share your insights and experiences here, we would surely be worse off without you.