Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 06:38:04 PM
Thanks, but is there anybody who had a life in their birth gender including documents, transcripts, resumes, marriages,etc who has gone effectively stealth? I never will because if for no other reason, I've given newspaper interviews and they are links for years.

I think folks like that would find it very hard.  I was very active early in transition and while I've stayed out of the limelight I also stayed in the community where I transitioned so I was fairly well known around town.  It hasn't caused any problems for me and as the years fall by the wayside, so will folks memories.  I don't advertise but I can't consider myself stealth.  The most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.  And the answer to that is easy - I'm very happy and that's what matters

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
... The most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.  And the answer to that is easy - I'm very happy and that's what matters

-={LR}=-

And that is all that matters, LR


Janet

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 08:02:35 PMThe most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.

Seconded.

Happiness is what we all aspire to.  Happy is what we are after we transition but that's not what's being asked.

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 06:38:04 PM
is there anybody who had a life in their birth gender including documents, transcripts, resumes, marriages,etc who has gone effectively stealth? I never will because if for no other reason, I've given newspaper interviews and they are links for years.

I don't believe that stealth has anything to do with being post-operative.  I was stealth to a certain extent long before I had GRS  My definition of Stealth has to do with being indistinguishable from other females in appearance, assimilation & history.  By history I mean any paper trails & documentation that could out you as trans.   Let me explain, as a woman that's had FFS I pass perfectly but if I were to apply for new employment, open an acct, buy a car, a home, my former identity (credit references, background) would be revealed in an instant with a big fat M.  Unfortunately I didn't transition until I was 28 & I had some history as my former identity.  By that scenario I'm not completely stealth in Switzerland (my native country), but where I live now there's no paper documentation that could link me to a former identity, so here I'm wholly stealth.

Anxiety of this is a significant reason (not the only one to be sure) that older transitioners populate recovery centers. The dual diagnosis of G.I.D. ( if we accept it is a diagnosis) and substance abuse is a common occurrance. It funds CSAT programs coast to coast

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 04:50:03 PM
Again, I haven't read every post (sorry)-----but it might be constructive if those who really believe that they are truly stealth explain how they accomplished it. I am not being facetious. I know people who can only dream of living stealth, so what are the keys for how you are doing it.

Thanks

My story's somewhat similar to Blanche's.

Quote from: Leslie on October 01, 2009, 04:10:39 AM
There was a time a few years back when "stealth" was just a dream.  I wasn't "stealth" material if you know what I mean.  But all that changed in an instant.  I was able to move to a different country after I had facial feminization surgery.  I got a marvelous job contract & the opportunity to start my life from scratch.  GRS has opened up new doors for me too.  I can now marry my long time BF & that's something I never thought it could happen. 

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got.

In my experience the hostility is in reverse.  I dunno what the problem is with some people.  If I say Im stealth, its because I know my life better than anybody else & I know I am.  It bothers me when online strangers presume to know my life better than I do & engage themselves in semantics to discredit my experiences.  Its rude when people tell me [you cant be stealth because I cannot be] or ask me [are you sure you are stealth?] like Im some idiot that doesnt know the differences between stealth, semi-stealth & out & proud.  I mean come on.

Quote from: Blanche on October 16, 2009, 11:28:53 PM
Happiness is what we all aspire to.  Happy is what we are after we transition but that's not what's being asked.

Well if anyone has any hostility towards me for living my life in a way that makes me happy, they are going to have to figure out how to deal with it or just decide to live with it.  I lived my life in a way I thought would make others happy for plenty long.  Now it's my turn to be happy.  The first half of my life I gave to my family.  This half is mine.

Julie

Quote from: Yvonne on October 17, 2009, 02:02:37 PM
In my experience the hostility is in reverse.  I dunno what the problem is with some people.  If I say Im stealth, its because I know my life better than anybody else & I know I am.  It bothers me when online strangers presume to know my life better than I do & engage themselves in semantics to discredit my experiences.  Its rude when people tell me [you cant be stealth because I cannot be] or ask me [are you sure you are stealth?] like Im some idiot that doesnt know the differences between stealth, semi-stealth & out & proud.  I mean come on.

Totally agree.... The only visible hostility I EVER see regarding the subject of stealth, is TO those that are stealth.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 17, 2009, 03:29:08 PM
Totally agree.... The only visible hostility I EVER see regarding the subject of stealth, is TO those that are stealth.

From here on the sidelines I have to say I've seen hostility in both directions.  I agree with Yvonne's previous comment about semantic quibbling but see that in both directions too.  In fact, virtually all the hostility that I've seen has been largely triggered by semantic quibbling; some who seem to try and undermine the stealthy and some others who identify as "stealth" being aggressively parochial about who and what the term encompasses.

Having said that, for all the dialogue the topic has created on this thread, the participants in hostility seem to be a consistent minority of individuals, so it may be that the emotion of the problem makes it seem larger than it really is?  *shrug*

well lets be fair.... for a concept to exist, it must have boundaries... such is the nature of a concept.

If its a potato, its a potato,  and an apple isnt a potato..... A sand line must be drawn somewhere to say 'anything past here is stealth, anything before is not. Yes, its discrimination. Oh well.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 17, 2009, 06:12:50 PM
well lets be fair.... for a concept to exist, it must have boundaries... such is the nature of a concept.

True but boundaries don't have to be high resolution - they can be fuzzy.  I think the problem is simply that humans are analytically categorizing animals and so some people tend to have a (somewhat bizarre) attachment to whatever "mental filing scheme" they use.

If you want a really bizarre example, the L.G.B.T.Q.Q.I.A. acronym seems to be a poster child.  Talk about an over-rotation on making sure everyones parochial classifiers get a mention - and I'm sure there'll be some whack-job somewhere who starts a flame war over whose letters come first!
 

Quote
If its a potato, its a potato,  and an apple isnt a potato..... A sand line must be drawn somewhere to say 'anything past here is stealth, anything before is not. Yes, its discrimination. Oh well.

hehe... I'd probably describe it more like an argument over whether a banana is a fruit or a herb (it's both, depending on which bit of the banana you're talking about: the berry or the plant).

Just because a borderline is distinctive and un fuzzy, doesnt mean the land beyond it must be also...

TO THE FAR RIGHT EXTREMISTS, THIS IS JUST LIKE AN ANT WAR . REALLY IMPORTANT TO THE ANTS, BUT NOT TO A SHOE OR A TIRE TRUCK ROLLING OVER THE CONFLICT.

mmm Capitals.... serious point....


Frankly, I don't give a damn about the far right. At the end of the day, we will most likely fight eachother for ever. Just because people share a common thing... trans, doesnt mean we all think the same way, or feel the same way. It's like expecting all Clamidia sufferers to love the colour purple....

My 2 cents:
I have to agree that there is a lot of hostility from those who are stealth towards those of us who working our process as best we can given our life circumstances.  As it happens, I just got a total load dumped on me today.  Why?  I think there are several reasons.  First, it seems to be human nature to want to be superior to someone else.  It makes us feel good about our own selves in a convoluted sort of way.  Just like there are bullies in every walk of life and every organization, there are trans-bullies out there.  I see these people as the least secure in who they are.  Second, I think some of it comes from a refusal to try to walk in someone else's shoes.  I hear it said, "If I can do it,  ______ can too."  That is likely total nonsense.  We all have reasons for being where we are in this life.  We just need to respect each other.  Third, I know of some who have a real fear that association with someone else not living in stealth will eventually out them.  To those people I say, either get over it or go away and live your happy life.  That is entirely your choice.  Fourth, I have actually heard it said that if so and so were not so ugly she would have transitioned by now.  It should be obvious how I feel when I hear that.  Fifth, some of it is most likely a reaction to the common misconception espoused by those who claim it is impossible to live in stealth.  Actually, it is not.  Some are doing it very successfully.  Some have for many years. 

Whatever the case, my level of tolerance for hostility, whichever side it comes from, has been dramatically reduced.

Kristi

Hi just been reading through this thread - not quite all of it...

But a question

Why the drama?

There are those that make up our "community" (and I use that term quite loosely) , some will always be political, and frankly there will be those that aren't.

Stealth is a choice for those that can achieve it; a dream for others who would like to be so, and those that either way just won't be stealth because they want to be out there. 

So what?

Living in New Zealand I have had the pleasure to see some of our older woman, stealth at an early age, come out in there older years to help push through major changes in our society through politics or local community groups.  That is quite awesome and something I think comes to all people at a mature age, I mean that desire to leave a legacy and give back to society in general

Life is never about who or what you are but about what you give.  That doesn't mean you have to be an activist and standing up for rights. You don't have to be stealth either and judge your life by being a total woman or man by society's standards.
It's about being a member of society, everyone makes a difference is just either good or bad – and it will always be personal.

Quote from: wabbit2 on October 21, 2009, 03:35:39 AM... I have had the pleasure to see some of our older woman, stealth at an early age, come out in there older years to help ... I think comes to all people at a mature age, I mean that desire to leave a legacy and give back to society in general...

Funny you should mention that. I am 60, 35.5 years stealth (more or less), and currently considering volunteering to work with young people at the local Rainbow centre. Stealth isn't nearly as important to me now as helping youth.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 21, 2009, 04:19:40 AM
Funny you should mention that. I am 60, 35.5 years stealth (more or less), and currently considering volunteering to work with young people at the local Rainbow centre. Stealth isn't nearly as important to me now as helping youth.

Awesome! Go for it, you will totally make a difference both for them and you. 

Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from.... Most dont really care? Especially not 'bullying' to any extent. I've heard more harsh words and language, coupled with emotional blackmail coming from the activist types really...

Insecure? Perhaps

But let me suggest this....


People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Then again, all of humanity is insecure, trans or not. We all seek the aproval of others, its a communal society, and we like to be liked.... human nature.

Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit. Fair fecks to them....

Quote from: Kristi on October 19, 2009, 09:52:41 PM
My 2 cents:
I have to agree that there is a lot of hostility from those who are stealth towards those of us who working our process as best we can given our life circumstances.  As it happens, I just got a total load dumped on me today.  Why?  I think there are several reasons.  First, it seems to be human nature to want to be superior to someone else.  It makes us feel good about our own selves in a convoluted sort of way.  Just like there are bullies in every walk of life and every organization, there are trans-bullies out there.  I see these people as the least secure in who they are.  Second, I think some of it comes from a refusal to try to walk in someone else's shoes.  I hear it said, "If I can do it,  ______ can too."  That is likely total nonsense.  We all have reasons for being where we are in this life.  We just need to respect each other.  Third, I know of some who have a real fear that association with someone else not living in stealth will eventually out them.  To those people I say, either get over it or go away and live your happy life.  That is entirely your choice.  Fourth, I have actually heard it said that if so and so were not so ugly she would have transitioned by now.  It should be obvious how I feel when I hear that.  Fifth, some of it is most likely a reaction to the common misconception espoused by those who claim it is impossible to live in stealth.  Actually, it is not.  Some are doing it very successfully.  Some have for many years. 

Whatever the case, my level of tolerance for hostility, whichever side it comes from, has been dramatically reduced.

Kristi