Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit.

Actually, I agree with you for the most part.  There is hostility both ways.  Of course there should not be, but there is.  Division in the ranks does nothing but weaken our cause.  So it is sad for me to see.  Yet I have experienced it from both ways, one wanting me to be this, another wanting me to be something else.  I am just me and dealing with my life the way I have to, given the cards that were dealt. 

The question, however, was about one particular direction this was going.  That was what I was trying to answer.  So don't think my comments labeled one side as worse than the other.  It was not intended that way.

One of my dearest friends is completely stealth and I am so happy for her.  She has been a big help to me.  I hope to join her, but do not know if I will be able to.  Only time will tell.  And just as I would never tell anyone how they should deal with being trans, I don't think anyone has the right to tell me either.  Most, thankfully, have no interest in doing so.


Kristi

there will always be division in the ranks... we're only human.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from....

{snip}

People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Nothing to add here, I'm sure you see the point I'm making without me having to point it out.

Quote from: Miniar on October 21, 2009, 09:06:58 AM
Nothing to add here, I'm sure you see the point I'm making without me having to point it out.

Miniar, I was reading that post too and was thinking the same thing!

No offense to all the stealth/non-stealth peeps out there, but most humans like their boxes.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AMPeople out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Maybe I'm dense or am reading this totally wrong but what I read here seems completely contrary to what I know and see when interacting with anyone trans - stealth, out and everything in between, as well as with what I know a "secure person" to mean.  Let me explain...

If you're out, there is nothing to hide behind.  You are totally exposed.  Everyone knows your stuff before they even know you.  And, considering the negative stigma, you are severely disadvantaged.  There is no social benefit to being out other than to be a pioneer and educate the world in hopes of changing the negative stigma.

In talking to friends who are imperceptible, I have heard time and time again that when the world sees them as the women they are, they are not discriminated against.  People don't interact with them through prejudice.  There are no funny looks, no snickers, no sidelong glances and certainly no harassing or physical harm.  And there's no way they will out themselves.  To maintain this life they have to hide their past.

When you can stand up to all the crap that comes with being identified as trans, you are pretty secure with yourself because, for the most part, you stand alone.  When you have to integrate within an accepted group and hide part of who you are for fear of discrimination, well... that is not the definition of a secure person.  Secure comes from the Latin word securus, se meaning without and curus meaning care - without a care.  Those living in stealth fear discovery.

Now, this is based on personal experience and the experience of friends.  And there's definitions that can change from person to person.  But considering the likely response of the average person or group I think most would agree you have to be a pretty strong and independent person to be out.

For me, while I never out myself (there's no benefit), I don't fear being outed.  If a document or someone I know outs me, I won't shrink, cower or be crushed.  I'll just acknowledge it just like I would if someone asked me if I color my hair.  It's really no big deal and if you have a problem with it, it's your problem, not mine.

But when I looked back at my earlier days, pre-coming out to those who know me, I lived in fear of being outed, being discovered.  I remember the times the blood would rush to my face when I even suspected someone knew "my secret".  And I know of stealth women who say the same thing when their past is suspected.  Their secret is their past and they fear being outed.  One woman wanted to kill herself because, after 15 years of being stealth, someone clocked her.  I wouldn't call her secure.

By my definition, someone who is secure with themselves is unaffected by the opinions or reactions of others no matter what it is about them that is suspected or known.

Julie

QuoteIn talking to friends who are imperceptible, I have heard time and time again that when the world sees them as the women they are, they are not discriminated against.  People don't interact with them through prejudice.  There are no funny looks, no snickers, no sidelong glances and certainly no harassing or physical harm.  And there's no way they will out themselves.  To maintain this life they have to hide their past.

I am finding that (in my life at least) there is a stage beyond what  you describe, a time when a person has been so deeply integrated for so long that you no longer feel the need to "hide". I have been "stealth" for 35 years and for the last 5 years or so I don't care that much about "stealth". I KNOW what I am - just a woman who survived an ugly childhood - all my friends know what I am and I don't care what others think.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from.... Most dont really care? Especially not 'bullying' to any extent. I've heard more harsh words and language, coupled with emotional blackmail coming from the activist types really...

Insecure? Perhaps

But let me suggest this....


People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Then again, all of humanity is insecure, trans or not. We all seek the aproval of others, its a communal society, and we like to be liked.... human nature.

Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit. Fair fecks to them....

That really resonates with my own realizations. 

In looking back on my transition, my greatest regret was talking to nons about my transition.  It equated to educating my oppressors.  Now that I have realized the error of my ways, I see that others are continuing to educate my oppressors for me.  They don't even realize the harm they are causing or the roadblocks they are erecting for themselves.

Anyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

I'm uncomfortable with the word "stealth"..  I'm a woman.  I've always been female & I live a woman's life, there's no "hiding", there's no "I was a man".  For me, saying those things would be a lie.

Also I'm not clear about what "stealth" post-operative peeps are supposed to be "fighting for".  Hasn't society already given us our rights as the gender we are when we had GRS?   I'm a woman legally, I can marry a man anytime I want to & nobody will blink twice.  To the world I'm a woman in every aspect.  I don't demand acceptance or tolerance.  The world sees me and treats me as any other woman because I AM a woman & that's all there's to it.  I agree with Blanche that those seeking special laws are those who are mainly homosexual & are not yet transitioned.  If my legal rights were violated, I'd be out there fighting for them too.  The only thing I wouldn't do is to tell others that don't have a stake on that to "join" me.  That's just dumb not to mention offensive.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 21, 2009, 12:07:22 PM
I am finding that (in my life at least) there is a stage beyond what  you describe, a time when a person has been so deeply integrated for so long that you no longer feel the need to "hide". I have been "stealth" for 35 years and for the last 5 years or so I don't care that much about "stealth". I KNOW what I am - just a woman who survived an ugly childhood - all my friends know what I am and I don't care what others think.

Agreed.  That's called adaptation.  Not too many peeps get to that point.  A person needs to have transitioned young & lived as female for years for adaptation to take place.  My apologies for beating a dead horse here but peeps that transition at an old age can't grasp this concept. Few are those peeps that transition at an old age & can adapt fully.  "Passing" doesn't equate adaptation btw.  I know many older women who pass well because they've had FFS but they normally complain of being outed instantly because they can't establish a conversation among other natal females, too many years of assimilation under the wrong gender role is the problem.  Not even FFS can undo that.

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 21, 2009, 06:22:25 PMAnyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

Where do you live?  I'm moving there!

The idea that outing yourself in order to get PC protected treatment?  I don't know anywhere being trans will get people to treat you better, not even in LGBT environments.  My employer had no problem forgetting everything I had ever done, demoting me, cutting my pay then showing me the door after I came out.  Politically correct?  They never gave it a thought.  In the world where I live if you're trans you are a leper.

So let me know where you live.  I'm serious.  Because it's gotta be a place that's more progressive than any I have ever heard of and a hell of a lot better than any place I know.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 21, 2009, 06:22:25 PM

That really resonates with my own realizations. 

In looking back on my transition, my greatest regret was talking to nons about my transition.  It equated to educating my oppressors.  Now that I have realized the error of my ways, I see that others are continuing to educate my oppressors for me.  They don't even realize the harm they are causing or the roadblocks they are erecting for themselves.

Anyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

All across America there are substance abuse programs, HIV/AIDS Awareness programs, university counseling programs, GLBT centers, and other agencies funded by grants from the government and corporations like American Airlines and HBO. These programs sometimes focus on the TG community.  If one gets invited to teach counseling students on how to work with TG people in any program or for instance go into prisons to teach staff how to deal with TG inmates in an ethical way, it kinda helps to be honest about one's own status.

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Post Merge: October 21, 2009, 09:07:54 PM

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Throwing out the transgender card is pretty well a job requirement when accepting a job to do outreach and community education. The only group it isolates one from is the "stealth sorority" who stay away from one like the plague. If one thinks that the only tg people who do this work only do so cause they don't pass-----think again.

I sure don't think that xsocialworker....  I did a little work like that myself early on... I was with my university's lgbt, and did a talk for the phone listening service on how to deal with trans stuff.... it was funny, because i expected them to know... only to ge a girl come up to me after and ask how i knew so much about trans issues... and did I have a relative?

One doesnt NEED to be out to educate... it may help some situations, but anyone can stand up for trans people... not just trans people.... The more people 'not percived as trans', natal or otherwise, that stick up for trans people. the more likely OTHER non trans people are to think.... and agree, and perhaps follow suit....

otherwise its preaching to the choir.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 22, 2009, 08:53:04 AMOne doesnt NEED to be out to educate...

That's true but, based on what I've seen, read and experienced personally, coming out to someone who has no clue you had a different gender past can be pretty powerful.  Many people think a transwoman is just a man in a dress who had some surgery.  Letting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Julie

All I  can tell you about that is that I am not talking about being a one or two time guest lecturer. I mean those people who hold caseworker, supervisor, or agency head positions in programs specifically targeting tg people like the Gay and Lesbian Center in NYC. The concept is that transpeople at risk need to see a transperson as part of the helping process. This concept has always applied to any minority. What would a Jewish Community Center be like if all the staff took non-jewish names and claimed to be born CHRISTIAN.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 22, 2009, 09:08:42 AMLetting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Not until we can get the fruitcakes off Jerry Springer!

I KNOW THAT PLENTY OF OF NON-TRANS PEOPLE DO VERY EFFECTIVE WORK IN SOCIAL WORK OR COUNSELING WITH TRANSPEOPLE. BUT IF YOU ARE TRANS, TO WORK IN THIS FIELD AND HIDE IT IS TO MY MIND------------HIGHLY UNETHICAL

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 22, 2009, 09:09:41 AM
All I  can tell you about that is that I am not talking about being a one or two time guest lecturer. I mean those people who hold caseworker, supervisor, or agency head positions in programs specifically targeting tg people like the Gay and Lesbian Center in NYC. The concept is that transpeople at risk need to see a transperson as part of the helping process. This concept has always applied to any minority. What would a Jewish Community Center be like if all the staff took non-jewish names and claimed to be born CHRISTIAN.

Ok, first off... I wasn't out to play the whos got the biggest E-P.... Deepest E-vagina?
I don't really mind what you do, i was making a point about perception.

Yes, some trans people at risk need to see trans people, I doubt that will change. BUT the more people that understand trans issues and apear to be non trans can have a ballencing effect in removing thatr risk... if more 'normal people' dont see a problem with it... the biggots stand out and fade out faster.

I'm not saying that Jews should take christian names to promote Judaism, (following your metaphor) if you think that, you missed my point.

Also, stop using capitals.... it doesn't make anyone listen any more... or belive you more. It just annoys people... and secondly, Trans status working with trans people in counceling or social work has no relation to ethics. If a non trans person can work with trans people, how does it matter if a trans person does it and doesnt reveal that? They would just come accross much more understanding and more effective at the job.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 22, 2009, 09:16:59 AMIf a non trans person can work with trans people, how does it matter if a trans person does it and doesnt reveal that? They would just come accross much more understanding and more effective at the job.

Before I came out at work I was an understanding non-trans person.  I'd say I "reached" maybe 2 people in 30 years.  If the subject didn't come up, you just didn't talk about it.  It wasn't part of anyone's life. 

After I came out I opened the eyes of an entire company and a lot of local union members.  I had fellow workers say before I came out they never even thought about what trans lives could be like.  It wasn't on their radar.  And many thanked me for educating them, and all I did was come out.

Most of the people in my company and my local didn't even want to talk about TGs.  They didn't know any so why waste their time?  But they were at times joke fodder. 

In my career I've worked with more than a thousand people face to face.  Probably as much as a third found out about my transition.  And, from the feedback I got after coming out, no one had a clue.  So it became the shot heard around the world and it was now on everyone's radar.  And I'll bet a lot of people were second guessing their beliefs about TGs.

I could never have accomplished that by simply being understanding.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 22, 2009, 09:08:42 AM
That's true but, based on what I've seen, read and experienced personally, coming out to someone who has no clue you had a different gender past can be pretty powerful.  Many people think a transwoman is just a man in a dress who had some surgery.  Letting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Julie

To a certain extent I agree with your comments Julie.

As the Safety Manager of a large transportation company I work in close contact with many agencies who I need to deal with and who are customers of our company.  When collisions occur involving our vehicles I'm on the scene working with police and ems services investigating the collisions, determining causes, and solutions aimed at prevention.  Likewise I work daily with our drivers either in a classroom setting or one-on-one monitoring, teaching or evaluating.  I also meet with customers to discuss concerns they may have with regard to safe passenger transport.  I do this as a woman, in a field normally staffed by males, and (this is where we differ) I do this having to contend with and convince others that women are quite capable if not better at doing this type of work.  I don't have to reveal or declare that I am a woman as it quite apparent to all, and all can see that (so far) the quality of work, the output and results meet or exceed what my job requires.

While I will not reveal my trans past, I would not deny it either if it became a concern of those I deal with.  Women with trans pasts often face two battles.  Firstly female equality in the workplace.  I'm not talking about feminism simply the same pay for the same work that men do.  Of course the second battle we have is showing society that just because we have a different past doesn't make us second class citizens who have to fight for rights and freedoms etc.  Luckily I'm fortunate to live in Canada where my rights and freedoms are protected and I was a part of bringing that about, albeit in a small way. (I did my part)

I try to be as stealthy as I can given the circumstances but as many in my position have said I didn't transition to be a transsexual woman, I transitioned to be the woman I am.  I like to think that those who I've dealt with and were pleased with what I did would be pleasantly surprised if they found out about my background afterward, something like "Wow, no kidding she's a transsexual?  I would never have known."  I don't have to worry about those who are not pleased, as they don't exist.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 22, 2009, 12:11:09 PM
(this is where we differ) I do this having to contend with and convince others that women are quite capable if not better at doing this type of work.  I don't have to reveal or declare that I am a woman as it quite apparent to all

We're not differing at all.  I agree with your statement.  As far as revealing that you are a woman, it is, as you said, quite obvious, as is one's skin color and other obvious physical traits.

So you doing the job you're doing will automatically speak well for women and other women will (hopefully) benefit.  The same would be true if you came out as trans, or, if you we're bipolar, came out as bipolar.

If you are part of a discriminated class and you buck conventional wisdom in a positive way, those like you will always benefit, to some degree or another if you are "out".  The question is, is it worth it to someone to be "out" just so others benefit?  Usually not.  There has to be something one would gain personally, even if it's just personal satisfaction.

I am by no means telling anyone they should out themselves.  I thought coming out would not hurt me (at least that's what HR told me) but it ended my career and I lost a job I really loved.  I would never suggest anyone make that kind of sacrifice.  But I feel those who do, help to end the ignorance and (fingers crossed) someday eliminate the stigma.

Julie

As Barney Frank said at a townhall meeting. "talking to you Madam is like taliking to a dining room table" to paraphrase. I don't care who does stealth and who doesn't. Trying to explain how the field of providing services to transpeople works seems to be be going nowhere. I'm done. I just have one question for some of you. If you were seeing a psychologist you thought was genetic and discussing your gender issues, wouldn't you feel just had a little bit "had"  if you found out later that she was trans? Don't answer!