You display a clear lack of understanding of what scientific hypothesis is.  I have immense doubt that anything you say on this subject is of value.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 27, 2009, 02:53:34 AM
You display a clear lack of understanding of what scientific hypothesis is.  I have immense doubt that anything you say on this subject is of value.

I have immense doubt you have anything to say on this subject that changes the fact you made an unfounded accusation that turned out to be hilariously incorrect. 

But congratulations to us, I think we have officially derailed this thread. Not that it seemed to be going anywhere productive for the past couple pages.

When I was diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder my therapist feverishly stressed that I do not have a disorder and was perfectly normal. I wish they would make this diagnosis a medical one instead of a mental one but currently this at least opens the door for me to get hormones under a doctor's care as well as therapy I need.

Studies, papers, whatever.  You can prove anything you set out to prove.  But there is one thing that speaks most loudly, virtually all those who choose the route of transition are content with their choice.  It doesn't matter why.  Those I personally know, confirm my belief that transitioning is the only treatment with a very high success rate. 

Gender identity is a physical condition and therefore does not belong in the DSM, it belongs in a physicians manual as a treatable condition with a high success rate when gender transition is the focus.

The last thing I will say on this subject is that GID is a mental disorder according to the powers that be.  We can argue till we are blue in the face.

I am a woman, but without insurance, I am going at a slow pace.  I am unemployed and pay everything out of pocket.  Say what you might about 'if you want it bad enough', it still is carp ( yes I spelled it that way on purpose ).  I have extreme pain in my hip and back and can not even get medical help for it.  So unless the US has a public option that includes GID treatment, which will have to be at least termed medical, I am going to have to stop at an Orchie.  It does not matter if I need FFS or a BA, let alone SRS.  I simple can not afford it without help.

You don't realize that many of us are in the same boat.  We need to have the public option, which means being deemed medical, or face a life of suicidal thoughts and the possible loss of more brothers and sisters.  Or move to Canada, which is also not feasible because of cost.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 27, 2009, 08:39:48 AM
You don't realize that many of us are in the same boat.  We need to have the public option, which means being deemed medical, or face a life of suicidal thoughts and the possible loss of more brothers and sisters.  Or move to Canada, which is also not feasible because of cost.


Janet

I agree, we should have single payer, or second best, public option.

Unfortunately, I believe there are restrictions for applying for Canadian citizenship past age 55.

Z

And that is the only reason that I stay here in the states.  If I am stuck in this form, I will endure it as long as I can.  At least I will die a woman and not what I was born as.  Deformed.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 27, 2009, 08:39:48 AM
The last thing I will say on this subject is that GID is a mental disorder according to the powers that be.  We can argue till we are blue in the face.[/size][/font]

So was homosexuality.

If you don't like something, you can always work to change it.  The powers that be are human and make mistakes and can be convinced they made a mistake here. 

When GID is removed from the DSM (and it will be) it will be reclassified and renamed and moved to the medical books where recognition and treatment will be outlined for physicians to follow.  It will happen.  I don't know when but it will.  The change is already underway.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 27, 2009, 12:40:22 PM
So was homosexuality.

Yes, but [cisgendered] homosexuals typically don't need a regime of lifetime medication and surgery to "correct a perceived birth defect" to live their lives to their fullest potential.  Comparing homosexuality and transsexualism is problematic for all sorts of reasons -- this is one of them.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 28, 2009, 01:15:32 AM
Yes, but [cisgendered] homosexuals typically don't need medication and surgery to live their lives to their fullest potential.  Comparing homosexuality and transsexualism is problematic for all sorts of reasons -- this is one of them.

It's not problematic, it's quite easy.

Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder that affected behavior but was otherwise not an impairment in a persons mental state of being.
GID IS considered a mental disorder that affects behaviour but otherwise is not an impairment on a persons mental state of being.

In both cases, prejudice and intolerance and lack of self acceptance can result in genuine mental disorders like depression.

In homosexualiy, the homosexuals successfully had it removed from the DSM, in GID, many want the same thing to happen.

The only practical political difference is that one requires treatment and one does not. Neither situations require it to be listed in the DSM.

But then, you've already decided to dismiss everything I say offhand after I pointed out that your irrational hatred of america fueled observation against those of us against the DSM was flat out wrong. And this thread is just going around in circles, so maybe it's time for someone to close it. 

Stay on topic everyone. Discuss the issue and not each other.

Why are GID issues needlessly divisive?

The transgender community and civil rights advocates have long been polarized by fear that access to sex reassignment procedures would be lost if the GID classification were revised. This division over issues of psychiatric stigma versus access to SRS has allowed little dialogue and no progress on GID reform in over two decades. In truth, however, transsexual individuals are poorly served by a diagnosis that both stigmatizes them unconditionally as mentally deficient and undermines the legitimacy of sex reassignment procedures that have been easily dismissed as "elective" and "cosmetic" by insurers, governments and employers. GID reform is not a question of less stigma versus improved SRS access, it is a question of less stigma and improved SRS access. We need dialogue among people who wish to move beyond division and polarization to proposals for diagnostic reform that will lead to consensus and forward progress.

Quoted from GID Reform Advocates.  I couldn't have said it better.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 28, 2009, 09:26:18 AM
Why are GID issues needlessly divisive?
We need dialogue among people who wish to move beyond division and polarization to proposals for diagnostic reform that will lead to consensus and forward progress.

Quoted from GID Reform Advocates.  I couldn't have said it better.

Julie

Thank you for posting this Julie. I agree with the essence of the statement and agree that it would be good/better if a proposal could be established that removes us from the DSM and better facilitates transition. Everyone is happy.

However, even the closing sentence points out the heart of the problem and the heart of the problem with this thread. There is so much division between the "take it out of DSM - I'm not mentally disabled" and the "It's okay in the DSM because we get treated" camps and so much argument over the fundamental reasons why it should stay or change and no serious proposals or recommendations about HOW to redefine and clarify dysphoria and HOW it would be diagnosed and treated as a medical condition, remove the social stigma, term it as a required treatment, remove the implications of "elective" and "cosmetic" from the treatment, and get it to be covered by insurance for that whatever percentage of people that have insurance (still leaves me and Janet and a whole lot of others out).

I have nothing to do, or influence, with the medical profession, the authors of the DSM, WPATH, or any of the 'powers that be', so I don' see myself as having any voice in the process and only hope that someday soon something happens where I am able to transition, or kill myself (that could be construed as mental in most circles).

I'm done with this, thank you for playing,

Deanna

This is what the DSM recommends for treatment of Gender Identity Disorder:

Treatment
Other disorders may be present with this one, including depression, anxiety, relationship difficulties, and personality disorders, and homosexuality is present in a majority of the cases. Treatment is likely to be long-term with small gains made on underlying issues as treatment progresses.

How does anyone go from there to GRS?  In what other mental illnesses is surgery recommended?  How does the DSM guarantee us MEDICAL coverage?

The World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH) is the organization that addresses the medical necessity issue.  That will not be affected by the elimination of GID from the DSM, except to change GID to some other accepted terminology.  You will still be able to get therapy because you'll be going in for anxiety, depression, etc.

So removing GID will really have no negative effect on available treatment but it opens the door to a lot of positive effects. 

- Imagine the entire medical profession seeing transitional surgeries in their physician's manual.  They would be more prone to researching it and improving on it. 

- Insurance companies would have a hard time defending their "cosmetic" and "elective" defense as reasons not to cover it.  The AMA would most likely apply more pressure to the insurance companies.

- More money could be funneled into better treatment options because it is now a medical issue and not a mental issue.

And the list goes on...

As far as not having a voice, all you'd have to do is something like voluntary social work and you can apply for a full membership to WPATH.  You would then have voting rights.

Julie

From the WPATH website:

The Association Welcomes Applications for the Following Types of Memberships:

Full professional membership is available to professionals working in disciplines such as medicine, psychology, law, social work, counseling, psychotherapy, family studies, sociology, anthropology, speech and voice therapy and sexology. Full membership costs $175 (US) per year, and carries voting privileges within the Association.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 28, 2009, 02:53:47 PM
Treatment
Other disorders may be present with this one, including depression, anxiety, relationship difficulties, and personality disorders, and homosexuality is present in a majority of the cases. Treatment is likely to be long-term with small gains made on underlying issues as treatment progresses.

Don't you love that they apply the term "homosexual" to us with respect to assigned gender at birth? 

Again, I'm all for removing it from the DSM...
But it has to be gone about the right way.
Which in my mind is:

Work towards getting it acknowledged as a genuine medical problem that "then" will be removed from the DSM.
Don't work towards removing it from the DSM first and foremost.

Mind you, I do believe it belongs in the DSM because of the mental problems the physical problem causes us, but it needs to be revised quite a bit.
If I had my way, I'd have transsexualism acknowledged as a real medical condition and listed in physician's guides or whatnot, and have the D in GID changed to "dysphoria" not "disorder" and have that listing reworded to emphasize that it's a result of a physical condition that while it would be beneficial to treat the stress, anxiety, and depression that comes with the physical condition, in some/most cases it is better to work on correcting the physical condition to alleviate those symptoms.
Keeping it in the DSM would also allow those individuals that which take a "non-op" path and make it easier for them to seek what help they need to make that path easier to walk, and with a revision, like I would suggest, that help would be based on an understanding of the underlaying problem.

All the emotional problems we suffer from being different come from outside/social pressures, conditioning, etc.  If we grew up in a world where we were thought of as the Berdache or Two Spirit, we'd be proud to be transgender.

A faction of our society decided we weren't normal and placed that in a book that professionals in the psychiatric community refer to when determining if a person has a mental/emotional problem.  They gave us this problem.  It did not come from within.

The same mindset that decided we were different enough to be abnormal was also present in an ignorant society conditioned to shun anyone different.  They added to our problem.

Our only emotional problem is we live in an unaccepting society.  That society believes the mind can be changed to what they consider normal.  It's a lot easier than them having to deal with you being different.  Without this myopic mindset, our condition would have been considered physical the moment it was discovered.

Who we are is determined by what's between our ears, not our legs.  We know that.  We just need to teach those who don't.

Quote from: juliekins on October 29, 2009, 06:45:00 AM
All the emotional problems we suffer from being different come from outside/social pressures, conditioning, etc.  If we grew up in a world where we were thought of as the Berdache or Two Spirit, we'd be proud to be transgender.

I'm pretty sure I'd be just as unhappy living like that as I was living a male roll.

I feel like I'm female, not male, and not some sort of in between third gender either. If everyone on the planet disappeared and I was the only one left, I would still feel like that, and still be depressed over it.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 29, 2009, 07:14:04 AM
I'm pretty sure I'd be just as unhappy living like that as I was living a male roll.

I feel like I'm female, not male, and not some sort of in between third gender either. If everyone on the planet disappeared and I was the only one left, I would still feel like that, and still be depressed over it.

I can guarantee you, Julie and I both feel exactly as you.  We are female and having a body in conflict is not good.

Julie and I were discussing this before her post.  I was the one who injected the Berdache analogy.  It was intended to mean only how our lives would have been so much easier if we were revered rather than repressed.  We wouldn't be ashamed to be TG.  For many of the Berdache and Two Spirits of the past, I'd imagine many of them would choose physical transition if it were available.

Julie

I have Bipolar Disorder. It's a real, medical illness. It makes me sad that there's so much stigma surrounding the idea a mental illness. Bipolar, schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses are also physically visible in the brain. It also comes from genetics.

I don't think something is less real because it occurs in the brain.

Being bipolar -- having a mental illness -- doesn't make me a freak. I'm normal. This is a normal human condition that's been around for ever and a day.

Having a mental illness doesn't mean that it's just all in my head, unreal, or make me less-than-human.

I'm being treated with medication, counseling, and other life skill sets. There's nothing wrong with that.

People are going to argue until they turn blue in the face about GID and whether it's a mental illness or not. Personally, I don't see the difference between a medical and mental illness. Both are medical and both follow treatment procedures.

The problem I see with society is the stigma surrounding mental illness. It's the stigma, not the condition that hurts us.

DSM or not, there's still the same treatment procedure: counceling, HRT, surgery, and so on.

Going through and reading these posts really made me feel like I must be some freak of nature, invisible, and less than human.

Is my bipolar less real because it's in the DSM? Is bipolar a less valid medical issue? Is bipolar invisible? Am I invisible?

In my world, it's the stigma of mental illness. That I am "crazy." I see the stigma as the driving force. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to be called "crazy," 'cause I get that a lot. It's not fun. It makes me feel less-than-human.

So, yeah, I an see why one would want to remove GID from the DSM -- you don't want the stigma of mental illness. I don't blame you.

But, you know what. I'm not crazy. I'm not less than human. I'm not a freak of nature. I'm me.

I'm an amazing, loving, and caring person who has a lot to offer the world. And so are all of you. My mental illness doesn't define me. Yes, it's part of me and it's something I have to live with, but I'm much more than bipolar. We all have something to give to the world.

It's the fear of stigma, of being labeled, and feeling as if you have no validation to be who you are. Validate yourself. You don't need some medical construct to validate who you are.

And, to be honest, even if GID was taken out of the DSM, people are still gonna say GID is in your head. People are still gonna say transsexuals are freaks. And people are still gonna try to treat you less-than-human -- No matter what external validation you bring to the table. Do not let others validate who you are.

That's my view point, anyway.

--natalie