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When should one consider FFS?

Started by 4years, June 04, 2005, 11:32:18 PM

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Thundra

<< I do think many of us however are concerned with fitting the female norm which is more defined from an anthropological standpoint than any stereotype. Female bone structure is very different from male and even in women who look very masculine the basic bone structure still fits this standard in facial features. >>

You have , of course, the right to do anything you like to your own body.  I do not take issue with that fact.  But.......

In your statement, I think that you are entirely missing my point.
I think that by trying to 'fit(ting) a female norm' as you phrase it, is dangerous, if not deluded. My point, is that there is no norm.  I think that you are drawing on too small a sample of the female population in making your statement of generality.

Woman come in every size and shape. You might be very surprised by some of the women you might meet, then methinks, because I've no doubt you would not know some of them were not men?  For instance, I had a roommate, that had the biggest %$#@#$%^ head I have ever seen.  It, was, huge.  And she was built larger and was stronger than almost all of the men she worked with, but she was still a natal female.  And, she is not an aberation, or just "the exception."

I get the strong feeling from your posting, and from many others here, that your view of what a woman is supposed to look like is very narrow, indeed.  My point is, that a woman is not supposed to look like anything.  At all.  She is supposed to look like who she is.  It is how she was born.

Now, I also have heard the other argument, that some people want to undo what testosterone did to to their body, to their face, frame, etc.  But, realistically, how are you to ever determine what you would have/would not have looked like had your not been exposed to "T?"  Once again, for every point one can make about looking "more" female, I can think of many women I have known that do not fit that norm, both in people I have known in the past and present, and no doubt, could find several examples on any trip to any venue where lots of females are present.

Another point I would raise, is that from many conversations in the past, amongst women I have known, one of the greatest points of contention that has come up, in regards to woman that transition, vs. natal females, is that they take great issue with the way woman that transition view what is female? In essence, they feel kind of, well, insulted, by the fact that people that were not born natally female feel free to judge what a woman should/should not look like.  And especially, when they themselves cannot fit that mold.

So, when I say that the right time to have FFS is never, it is not based just on trying to avoid a stereotype, but also based on a larger sociological idear of supporting woman's space, and the work that woman have done to quash stereotypical thinking. In other words, just because you can do something, does not mean you should.
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Kimberly

One can argue that the thought of "FFS ASAP" is a way to avoid a stereotype as well.

FFS isn't necessarily about looking more female but rather searching for a reflection that matches what one perceives oneself to be like.

I have seen quite a number of interesting faces, of both genetic sexes. There are also quite a number of interesting variations in voice and speech patterns as well.

Regardless, there is value in matching the perceived norm in that it allows one to more easily pass.
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Shelley

At the risk of being Thundra struck :),

I think I understand what your saying Thundra but also I think Kimberley's point is valid also. For some it is not so much about conforming as standing out less. I know many people who would choose to have less prominent features given the chance. Both males and females have surgery to adjust some feature or other. I also realise that this type of surgery is very serious by its nature.

Each to theirwn I say. Thundra your comments of never are valid for some. Linking them to an unrealistic expectation on the part of males however does tend to indicate that the person who chooses in the positive is incapable of making their own choice based on sound reasoning.

I think that your argument is against generalisations that indeed some males make but in making it that argument generalisations are used to justify it.

A conundrum this creates. More discussion may be necessary I think.

Shelley

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Thundra

<< Regardless, there is value in matching the perceived norm in that it allows one to more easily pass  >>

Arghhhh!

The evil "P"  word.

I have but one comment to make about this part of your post.

::The point about passing, is that there is no point::

As far as the surgery itself goes, I am all for people empowering themselves, to realize that they can do whatever they want with their own body.  But, just because you have that right, does not mean you should exercise it.

I am most concerned about this point, because of the lengths to which people will go to modify themselves.  I mean, after all, point well taken that lots of people are going in to have this, that, or the other thing done.  But.......I have seen way too many peeps go in and do everything at once, as if they are trying to run from themselves.  And, all too often, they seem no happier with the end result than before they had their facial surgery, or whatever. And then, there are those that spend a fortune after becoming addicted to having surgery, after surgery, after surgery.
To the point, where it seems at least some become so caught up in transitioning whatever that it becomes their motive for living.  They get so caught up in changing themselves that they forget to live. You gotta stop somewhere.

Surgery can be addictive, just like drugs, or alcohol, or whatever.
It will not change who you are, or give you self-esteem.  And, it certainly will not help you to interact with other people if you are not comfortable with yourself.  It is not a panacea.
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Kimberly

In my opinion, there is one really good reason to *try* and pass, which can be summed up by saying personal safety and dignity. People seem to have this nasty tendency to not be very nice.

Personally I am well aware that just because something can be done does not mean it should. This includes the thoughts of surgery and a vast multitude of other things.

In my opinion, surgery is merely a means to and end, not an end in itself. As you said, it is not a panacea, nor is it meant to be, it would be foolish to treat it as such.

Interesting thoughts.
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Svetlana

hmm.  whenever i've seen supermodels and the like on tv or suchlike media, i always judge them what afterwards i consider a bit harshly, and then think to myself "now, what's that all about?  why am i critical in particular of them?"

before i always considered that it was one of those professions that seems sickeningly too much to always have to proclaim more loudly than anybody else cares for the volume level of, every other half hour, "this is more difficult than any other job in the universe" - and then expect people not to think that sounds a little like overcompensation for something.

but now i think it's not that.  now i think it's probably mainly because of the narrow set of moulds these people are market-controlled into looking like and/or dare being chosen in the first place only if they look like.  that's why i get that knee-jerk reaction... because the very industry itself is well dodgy, and the models only support that dodgy industry.

hmm.  this made me come up with a pleasant thought.

wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean.  i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...
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Leigh

Quote from: Svetlana on August 08, 2005, 12:44:12 AM
wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean. i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...

Boring-regimenitated-controlled---not for me.
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Jessica

When should one consider FFS?  Whenever one desire's it.

Natal women get plastic surgery all the time to approve their appearance without having people question whether they are doing it to 'fit' the male's idea of appearance.  Why do they do it?

1. To feel better about themselves and how they look.
2. To correct their birth-given features to fit in with their idea of beauty.
3. To reverse the effects of age / gravity.

Why should FFS be any different.  Why get FFS?
1. To feel better about yourself and how you look
2. To correct your birth given (read cursed) features to fit in with your idea of beauty.
3. To reverse the effects of some uncontrollable law / effect (testosterone).

When should you get FFS? Whenever you darn well please :)

In fact, should I decide this is the route I am going to take (transition I mean)... I am still deathly afraid of this and about a thousand other things... argh, thats another tangent... anyway... should I decide to transition, I will be getting FFS so that I don't feel like an ogress in a dress.  Furthermore, I will be doing FFS before going fulltime.  The only reason I can stay sane is that, no matter where I end up, I look better than Janet Reno and she is genetic! *laughs*

Jessica
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Leigh

#4 ____to have the look that men might or would consider attractive
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Jessica

Yes Leigh, but, that is for both cases.  That goes for Cosmetic Surgery in general.

Like it or not, that's how it is.  Society (both men and women) set the standard for what is beautiful.  Men by who they find attractive and women by conforming to it.  Advertising, TV, Marketing, Fashion, all of it.

Plastic surgery is designed at that one drive, to be beautiful / accepted.  It's out there, and if your willing to pay for it, it's an option.  Just because the rules suck and it shouldn't be that way, really doesn't matter, the fact is it is that way.

We can wish the rules were different, we can wish that we didn't have to play this game because it's unfair and sucks but, thats how it is.  We're here and we're playing and we aren't allowed to leave (so my therapist tells me anyway).

I agree that society should not be so 'beauty based' but it is.  Most people if you ask them will agree with that statement and even claim to live by it.  Most people will say that inner beauty is just as important.  But, look at who men go up and talk to.  Is it the girl with personality and intelligence? Nope.  It's the beautiful busty blonde that has about as much substance as an empty glass of air.  Those are the rules, and if those are the rules, then fine, at least cosmetic surgery might be able to put me in the game.

Jessica

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Jessica

hmm... well... that just answered something about myself that I have never really brought to light.  Hell, I am all confused now.  That ... my response... that was sexual competition.  But, it was the... wrong way?  Is that the reason I would do FFS?  It appears so, hell, I don't even know that.... I would go that far.... argh.

I'm really too confused to participate in any of these conversations accept 'Introductions.'

I should have stayed out of this conversation.  Sorry.

I knew I shouldn't have watched 'My Little Pony' cartoons when I was little... That's it!  I can blame my little pony for making me this way. *sigh*

Jessica
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Leigh

Quote from: Jessica on August 08, 2005, 11:42:57 AM

We can wish the rules were different, we can wish that we didn't have to play this game because it's unfair and sucks but, thats how it is. We're here and we're playing and we aren't allowed to leave (so my therapist tells me anyway).

We or at least I do not/choose not to play by their rules.  Their rules also view surgery very different than I do.  If you or anyone abide by *their* rules then you have bought into the system.The very same system that pays women less money, second class citizens, chattel that men use as barter.  Status symbols, ornaments, maids, a vessel to bear their children.

FFS--altered reality
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Danielegrl

Quote from: Svetlana on August 08, 2005, 12:44:12 AM

hmm.  this made me come up with a pleasant thought.

wouldn't it be nice if there was a place people could go to and from as they please, where sex didn't exist?  nothing sexy, or sexual, sex doesn't sell, nothing's dirty or dodgy, as is nobody, no suggestion, no flirting, no nothing... everything clean.  i wouldn't stay there indefinately... but you have to think... so many things would be right about such a place...

Yes this is a lovely thought. I am still single because all the TS sisters i have met all want to get intimate before getting to know me. My transitioning has been a very nice experience except for that. I transitioned for identity not sexuality. When i find the right person who feels the same then it can progress in a natural stage to intimacy but until then i am just enjoying being totally non sexual..
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Shelley

So if I understand where this thread has gone,

If you do anything to improve your self image that is only done in an attempt to clear the path for sex. Therefore from this point forward I'm going to throw out all of my makeup find the dowdiest of clothes because I am happily marrried and do not wish to give the wrong impression.

But then no, I am capable of keeping my desires in check and to a degree capable of fending off unwanted advances. So I will dress to please me and no other. I will, with dignity as Kimberley said, do what I want to adjust my image to that which I self identify with. I have this freedom because I live in a democracy that allows me to self identify with the image that pleases me notother people. If men have issue with the way they think we should dress that is their problem they own those issues not me.

If I may I will now step down from this pedestle that arrived from no where and go and adjust my makeup.

Shelley
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Thundra

<< The only reason I can stay sane is that, no matter where I end up, I look better than Janet Reno and she is genetic! *laughs*  >>

My Goddess!  <groan>  After all of this discussion, this is the response.  Is that what this is about?  I look better than......Janet Reno, her, you, whatever?  That is to me, a lack of self-esteem, and even less awareness of how much women/womyn/wimmen suffer do to the onus this society places on them to be "beautiful," as defined by men. If you had self-esteem, you would not even care about how you look compared to other women.  That speaks of competition, and that comes from men.

That is just very sad.
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Thundra

<< If you do anything to improve your self image that is only done in an attempt to clear the path for sex. Therefore from this point forward I'm going to throw out all of my makeup find the dowdiest of clothes because I am happily marrried and do not wish to give the wrong impression. >>

And when did you decide you were a lesbian/feminist/amazon warrior? Hmmmm?

But seriously, would you still feel the need to run off and have FFS if you lived in a society populated only by women? See, a funny thing happens when no men are around.  The dynamics of interaction change markedly.

No men, no need to please them or placate their idears of what women should behave like, or look like.  The thing that is driving women to run off to change every little thing about themselves is the unrealistic image portrayed in society.  It makes them feel inadequate.  And who runs society.....men?  So, any woman that tells me she is changing all this stuff about herself, not to please men, but to please herself, well, I'm not buying it?  After all, it is men that invented the surgeries, and came up with all of these crazy idears in the first place.  Men are never satisfied with a woman's image.  Because he doesn't really want a real woman.  He wants the perfect image he see's in a magazine, or on TV.

So, my bent, is that if y'all lived somewhere isolated from men, everyone would not be running off to do this/that/and the other thing to themselves.  There would not be this need to conform to a set image of beauty, because there would be no one there to set that image.

I know woman do not make the rules.  But.......no one is holding a gun against your head to comply with their rules either.

And who the hell wants to wear a dress anyway?  I'll take a pair of jeans, or shorts any day.
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stephanie

Sorry to butt in, but it seems to me that Thundra's statements are less of a FFS nature and more of an anti-man nature.  And one thing I've always hated is man-bashing.  You know what would happen if all the men disappeared?  We'd die.  That's what.  The genetic material needs to be passed around, so we're stuck with men.  I disagree that men run the entire world, through.  True there's a lot of testosterone-soaked politics running around, but if you want to change the rules, then get out there and change them.

It's not that easy, is it?  Now I agree that women are not treated equally in the world.  It's a shameful fact.  That I could do without.  But to bring all hellfire and brimstone down on the entire gender and claim that all men suck and all men need to disappear and all men need to go away and leave the women alone, well that's just poppycock.  There are decent men in the world.  There are men out there who treat ALL women like queens.  There are men out there that have tried to undo what has been done.  There are men out there that don't give a flying *&^% what you look like.  There are men out there that bring good lighting to the sex.  Let's not slaughter the entire herd here because we've had a bad experience with an ex-boyfriend.  If we try to humiliate educate or eradicate the male gender, then we're no better than them.

Please keep the man-bashing to a dull roar.

Now, back on topic.

Get FFS if you feel it will help, and get it when you want.  It may not be a panacea, but it's not a placebo either.  If you feel better afterwards, then it was worth it.
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Kimberly

Quote from: Thundra on August 08, 2005, 08:47:14 PM
...
But seriously, would you still feel the need to run off and have FFS if you lived in a society populated only by women?...

Oh that is a fun thought. Hum, lets see.. better planet by and large, lets just fantasize and say FFS is still present and still as good and has no other social side effects...

Yes, I think so, but perhaps not as much. There are a few facial features I have that I have never liked, ffs would still be a way to help 'fix' that.


Quote from: Thundra on August 08, 2005, 08:47:14 PM
...
And who the hell wants to wear a dress anyway?  I'll take a pair of jeans, or shorts any day.
I do! :P (Because I like how they look, and I like how they feel.
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Leigh

Quote from: stephanie on August 08, 2005, 10:12:22 PM
  I disagree that men run the entire world, through.

Name 5 women in power as the head of any nation.
Name 5 women who head 3 of the top 100 fortune 500 companies.
Name the women govenors of the 50 states.

QuoteTrue there's a lot of testosterone-soaked politics running around, but if you want to change the rules, then get out there and change them.

I may be speaking of what I know not but I believe the Thundra is out there everyday, working and livng, making a difference.  To bad more can't say the same.

QuoteIt's not that easy, is it?

Sure it is, just open the door and attend a political rally.  Meet the city council, the county commissioners.  Don't hide come out, come out wheverever you are!


QuoteThere are men out there that don't give a flying *&^% what you look like.

Now that I agree with.  They could care  less if you are breathing just as long as the body is warm.






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stephanie

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2005, 10:54:15 PM
Now that I agree with.  They could care  less if you are breathing just as long as the body is warm.

Despite what man-bashing feminists everywhere want you to think, there are decent men out there.  All I'm saying is that we can't hold every man in the world respeonsible for the sad state of affairs that a few shauvanists have created.  Fix the problem, not the blame.

Now before I really get in trouble, I'm quitting this thread.
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