This discussion started off in an interesting direction, but I can't figure out what the heck we are talking about now. Is it hypothalamuses (sp), arms, pelvises, closets...

Hippopatamisses?!?!

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 22, 2009, 07:58:56 AM
This thread is about physical characteristics that identify a transsexual, which I suppose is a product of looking physically male. If a transsexual is not easily identified as male their physical characteristics are more identifiable as female.

The O.P. specified pre-hrt.

Of course pre-hrt transsexual women look like men. The question is whether there are any physical markers that might differentiate them from cissexual males. Such things might include arm angles, chirality of the scalp hair whorl, particular brain structures, and finger lenth ratios, all things that might have some correlation with intrauterine hormonal levels at the point when gender identity is formed (in any generic brain-sex theory), rather than post-natal levels.

I don't know of any similar studies regarding trans men.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 22, 2009, 03:40:13 PM
The O.P. specified pre-hrt.

Of course pre-hrt transsexual women look like men. The question is whether there are any physical markers that might differentiate them from cissexual males. Such things might include arm angles, chirality of the scalp hair whorl, particular brain structures, and finger lenth ratios, all things that might have some correlation with intrauterine hormonal levels at the point when gender identity is formed (in any generic brain-sex theory), rather than post-natal levels.

I don't know of any similar studies regarding trans men.

Pre HRT or years on HRT it often makes no difference. The majority unfortunitely do have physical characteristics that identifies them as transsexual. I'm not excluded either much to my frustration of being on HRT for a decade.

That's irrelevant. The social difference matters greatly. Pre-hrt generally mean pre-transition. Hence:

The comparison the OP was after is between pre-hrt trans women (mtf) and cis men.
Or pre-hrt trans men (ftm) and cis women.

Not between post-hrt trans women and cis women.
Nor post-hrt trans men and cis men.

Could you identify a 23 year old trans woman with a short masculine haircut and a hint of five-o'clock shadow, wearing a suit and tie? Might there be anything about her that would tell you that she is a month away from getting her therapist to write her a letter for hrt, and is starting laser treatment for her facial hair tomorrow? If you had access to all the medical imaging and tests the world has to offer, could you determine she was trans? Or even guess there was a higher probablility of it, based simply on her physiology?

Or would you just assume she was a man, no matter what medical information was available?

Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.

Hmmm,

left-handed here, from the stone-age when they tried hard to change that.  That indoctrination didn't work either!   

SusanKG

Quote from: Aaron Chris on November 22, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.

I'm completely screwed up in this regard. Some things I naturaly do left, some right, & none equally well with both. 

Quote from: SusanKG on November 22, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Hmmm,

left-handed here, from the stone-age when they tried hard to change that.  That indoctrination didn't work either!   

SusanKG

Hmm. I have a friend who was born lefty, but was made right-handed in kindergarden. (He's 15 - I didn't know they were doing that so recently!) He's also THE most effeminate guy I know... weird.

Quote from: Aaron Chris on November 22, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.

I'm left handed too but would suggest the theory is total nonsense! I know far more right handed TS's!

Well, what the article said was that there was a higher rate of lefties in the trans population. Right-handedness is still higher, because it would take a huge percent change to make it even or have more lefties than righties.

I'm lefty too.

I think the general population is estimated to be approximately 10-25%. There seem to be rising numbers, but it's probably just that they're not forcing everyone into right-handedness anymore in this country for the most part.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on November 16, 2009, 10:31:12 PM
As I understand it, there are now two separate studies, the 2nd one including a lot of controls to eliminate many of the flaws of the first, but came up with the same conclusions.

If you could think really hard and try to remember who did that study I'd br thrilled because i'd love to do a term paper on it. We looked at LeVays study and I picked it apart, so if more btsc data is out there I'd love to see it.

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 22, 2009, 06:19:31 PM
I'm completely screwed up in this regard. Some things I naturaly do left, some right, & none equally well with both.

Same here, I do some things left handed and some right handed. Can't switch hit though 

Quote from: riven_one on November 24, 2009, 07:56:24 PM
Same here, I do some things left handed and some right handed. Can't switch hit though 

Me too! I am both left and right handed depending on the task I have to do. I actually use a pen left handed but play the guitar right handed!

But there's no evidence whatsoever to imply that if you are left handed you might develop GD. My sister is also left handed and so are many people in the world who are not GD.

I do everything left handed but play guitar. My lefty dad plays right handed guitar as well. It's how both of us learned, and just way easier, because right handed guitars are easier to find.

i have read that ts have a bright and wide beautiful eyes, is this true, last year i met a very attractive girl, i didnot talk to her, but she was very strange, i felt like i can feel what she feels, and her eyes were very pretty and bright, i looked to her face, maybe i can see remains of manhood, but no thing, the funny thing is my feeling and her eyes, has any one experience something like that ?

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 25, 2009, 05:40:13 AM
Me too! I am both left and right handed depending on the task I have to do. I actually use a pen left handed but play the guitar right handed!

But there's no evidence whatsoever to imply that if you are left handed you might develop GD. My sister is also left handed and so are many people in the world who are not GD.

I fret with my left hand, I play piano mostly with my right, I try to brush my teeth with both to get both directions...

Can't really write with my left hand. I'm a good typer though... Assuming I have energy.

Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 30, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
i have read that ts have a bright and wide beautiful eyes, is this true, last year i met a very attractive girl, i didnot talk to her, but she was very strange, i felt like i can feel what she feels, and her eyes were very pretty and bright, i looked to her face, maybe i can see remains of manhood, but no thing, the funny thing is my feeling and her eyes, has any one experience something like that ?

So you meant post-transition signs after all? Ways to clock trans people? All righty then. I'm sorry I misunderstood.

Eyes are certainly a gender signifier. It has more to do with the bone structure surrounding them than the eyes themselves. Women's eyes tend to be a bit bigger, set a bit farther apart, in a shallower socket, and less shaded by the orbital rim and browridge. Therefore trans women who havent had FFS, if they are read as women, are often seen to have deep or mysterious eyes (described positively); a negative description might be that they are hollow, dark, hooded, etc.

So bright, wide, beautiful eyes would not suggest to me that I was looking at a trans woman. I have heard people say they love trans women's eyes, but I think this is because they seem very expressive within the context of how we read expression on female faces.

I've often wondered about this myself, but I've given up trying to figure it out. Why is it that some of us seem to sail through life seldom if ever getting noticed whilst other, arguably far more attractive and convincing examples seem to have such a torrid time.

I really don't know the answer.

My own physique is, at best, pretty average and I've never had any FFS or other augmentation. Just SRS in 1984. But I honestly can't recall the last time I was read. Indeed now that I am out of stealth I often have a job convincing people that I'm not winding them up when I tell them of my past. Yet others, whom I judge to be far more attractive and convincing than me, seem to have far less luck.

I wish I knew what the reason was. I'm certainly nothing special as you can judge for yourself from these recent shots.

PS. I seldom wear makeup - so these photos show the undoctored raw material so to speak.