This is my own view on this subject. I personally am an agnostic, and do not believe there is data either way. You do not need to share this view.

To me I am SURE god exists. Maybe not in a way any of us has ever been told.

Perhaps its like the patterns behind creation.

I thik organised religions have caused many people to turn from a belief in god.

Too much beaurocracy! Many people have a feeling for the divine at odd moments, a birth, seeing stars in a desert, in love.

Do you know the blind men elephant story? Three blind men were meeting an elephant for the first time. One met his leg and said 'its like a tree'. One met his skin and said 'its like a rock'. One met his trunk and said its like a snake!' each one was true, but all saw only a part.

To me to imagine that humans could ever understand the totality of the universe is such hubris that to imagine if a creator exists that we could understand any part of that is even more mpossible.

The only way would be if that creator wished it so and had the power to make it possible. ANd even then I imagine it would only be a tiny part.

Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god.

Being agnostic to me means not believing either way until evidence is given. Incidentally I have never been to Australia but I believe it does!

This subject has been debated for over 6000 years! There is so very much to say on the subject!

Anyway I know that for me god does exist.

Love, Sky X

Quote from: sky on September 17, 2006, 05:29:03 PM
To me I am SURE god exists. Maybe not in a way any of us has ever been told.

Perhaps its like the patterns behind creation.

I thik organised religions have caused many people to turn from a belief in god.

Too much beaurocracy! Many people have a feeling for the divine at odd moments, a birth, seeing stars in a desert, in love.

Do you know the blind men elephant story? Three blind men were meeting an elephant for the first time. One met his leg and said 'its like a tree'. One met his skin and said 'its like a rock'. One met his trunk and said its like a snake!' each one was true, but all saw only a part.

To me to imagine that humans could ever understand the totality of the universe is such hubris that to imagine if a creator exists that we could understand any part of that is even more mpossible.

The only way would be if that creator wished it so and had the power to make it possible. ANd even then I imagine it would only be a tiny part.

Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god.

Being agnostic to me means not believing either way until evidence is given. Incidentally I have never been to Australia but I believe it does!

This subject has been debated for over 6000 years! There is so very much to say on the subject!

Anyway I know that for me god does exist.

Love, Sky X

Well - I have no doubt that there are both foces in the universe greater than ourselves that science does not understand yet. When I nearly died in 2002, I did sense something was there - not letting me go yet. Perhaps it was God - perhaps it was fate. That force greater than ourself is perhaps what I think God is.

There is little doubt in my mind that if God does exist, he is utterly disgusted with what is done in his name - and religion is the man made costruct by which that abuse is propelled.

"Many people deny existence of god but use other peoples definition instead of their own. That makes it hard to accept existence of god."

This is a great point. I don't think THEIR God exists - the one that demands all the self hate the opression of gays and minorities. The one that will pass judgement at the end of time. I am certian that is just a psychological construct to perpetuate social control.

This is my own personal belief, but I belive each person has a moral responsibility to design a set of principles to live by. I think ultimately, the judgement of you own character is how well you have held youself to your principles.

What a great discussion!

*hugs* Bree

Quote from: Brianna on September 17, 2006, 03:18:03 PM
This is my own view on this subject. I personally am an agnostic, and do not believe there is data either way. You do not need to share this view.

I agree 100% with you on the fact that this is your own view on this subject!

tinkerbell

P.S.

QuoteYou do not need to share this view.

I don't.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 17, 2006, 08:51:06 PM
I don't.

That is just awesome. I think it's great that there are people less jaded than I.

Brianna

Whether or not God is disgusted with people on earth is not the issue. Personally, my day-to-day living hinges on the knowledge that there is something better out there for me. Is there a god? I believe so, yes, because somehow I'm still alive. Does he (or she) care about people here on earth? I think so. Otherwise, what would be the point of our living? But do we do things that displease this god? Absolutely. Organized religion, I agree, is filled with hypocrisy. However, I do not think that fact alone negates a higher power. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinions, of course; and this is mine.

Rafe

There are those who will abuse the belief in god to misdirect the masses.  Self proclaimed religious royalty pump up hatred leading their incited zealots to the pyre. Patience will abide the crumbling of their sand castles. Forced ignorance condems us. The universal truths of love and charity free us.

Support your local Druids



Cindi

Like these people?


Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush — these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."

"I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places," Fisher said. "Because, excuse me, we have the truth."

"A lot of people die for God," one camper said, "and they're not afraid."

"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," said another, "only in a funner way."

"It's an absolute, straight-up us-against-them," Sandler said. "It's, you're either with us or you're against us. ... Not only are you a sinner, but you are working for the enemy — the enemy being Satan."


Read the Story, or watch the trailer:

I still remember the Christian who promised to start the stoning with me I am still waiting.

Hi everyone,

This is too long to paste here, and I don't really want to try to summarize it.  It needs to be thought of in context.

http://elizabeth-alive.com/MyPhilosophy2.htm

Love always,
Elizabeth

Tinkerbell's faith is strong.  She's one of the finest Christians I've ever met.  And she doesn't paint it on a fence or force her beliefs on any one else.  Those are the characteristics of faith I admire.

Susan, I'm still waiting for that same stoner!  There are a few others out there who would like to do me in.

Elizabeth, I'm still trying to figure out how the theory of entropy figures in to the organization of life.  I'm still not sure how the two get along.  Entropy marches along grandly as we see it now. I love to discuss the philosophy of it all with those who will talk.

Brianna, bless your heart.  You see right through the thinly painted signs of the zealots.  We have as many here as there  are over there.  When we finally are able to push ours into complete poverty, they shall become just as violent.  And who knows which nation will suffer the guilt of our hypocracy. That, my friend will become apocolypse.  And they will tell us.... see?  It is prophecy fulfilled!  Let me give you my vision... in this they are right.  It will very likely happen and they will be the cause.

Rafe, you go kiddo.  Hold us together.

And Cindi... go hug a tree.

Cindi

That.
Trailer.
Is.
Beyond.
Scary.

It reminds me so much of the strictly religious upbringing I had. For the 12 most impressionable years of my life, garbage, in the guise of schooling, was pushed into my mind before I had the ability to think critically. It was really confusing to me - I knew there was something very wrong with me but I also knew I had to be part of the happy, oblivious system.

If others can forgive Christians for their hate of our kind and others, I will not try to disuade you. But I completely lack this emotional capacity. I don't think there is anything altruistic about Christians and I think they cause far more cultural damage than they allegedly solve.

Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."

There are those who will abuse the belief in god to misdirect the masses.  Self proclaimed religious royalty pump up hatred leading their incited zealots to the pyre. Patience will abide the crumbling of their sand castles. Forced ignorance condems us. The universal truths of love and charity free us.

Support your local Druids



Cindi
----------------------

yeah..............what ...she.... said.

Elizabeth, if I were to write an essay about my philosophy, one would probably think I committed plagerism from yours. I agree with everything you said. Its too bad all the sheeple in the world need someone else to tell them what to believe, how to act, need an explanation for what is, and cant life their lives for the now. I totally believe living you life for the afterlife is a waste of you existance.

I was raised on a household that allowed fredom of thought and believe. I was never told to believe anything or not to. I did atend church twice as a young lad with a friends family and decided to have nothing to do with it. I am an atheiest...and one that doesn't simply not believe god exists,  but believes god does not exist. I follow no religion. And for that so many would assume I am an imoral, sinning, devil warshipping, disgrace to human kind. Funny thing about that, I am probably one of the most accepting, moral, forgiving, caring, people because I am an atheist. My parents raised me to put others first, do no harm to others, respect everyone, do only as I would want done to me. My knowledge of what death is, (where mind, thought, soul, self awareness, everything we know but our physical body siese to exist, leving behind a corpse to be recycled by the world) has given me the most profound respect for life. life is the most precious thing we all have, and is the one thing that can not be given back once taken. I truely believe if religions, or more specifically the belief of any afterlife, did not exist killing in its many forms would virtually siese.

Quote from: Brianna on September 18, 2006, 08:38:35 AM

Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."

I view religion as a virus, non biological, in the form of a meem. sinse the beginning constantly spreading, mutating for survival, infecting all but a select few with imunity. there is no vaccine, no cure, just as with AIDS, the only way to fight it is education. however fighting it is an almost hopeless proposition since as with genes it is usually passed from parent to offspring. Introduced to children who are most impressionable. Places like camps in that video honestly scare the crap out of me.

If you choose to believe in god because to you it makes sense, good, you've made up your own mind. I strongly disagree with the teaching to beieve in something there is no evidence or proof of as a truth. the constant need for people to make everyone believe exactly as they do.  Whats wrong with raising everyone as freethinkers, allowed to make up their own minds?

Quote from: Ellissa Ray on September 18, 2006, 05:15:49 PM
I view religion as a virus, non biological, in the form of a meem. sinse the beginning constantly spreading, mutating for survival, infecting all but a select few with imunity.

Exactly! The sad thing is followers don't seem to care that these huge entities view them as being expendable... simple cannon fodder to spread the infection. Ironically, it always reminds me of the myth about selling your soul to the devil in exchange for protection and power.

It's not just religions of course, you see it in nationalities, political parties, idealogies, etc.

QuoteWhats wrong with raising everyone as freethinkers, allowed to make up their own minds?

It threatens the survival of the thought-form entities. Individuals... REAL individuals... are so incredibly rare and valuable and... hunted.

Quote from: Brianna on September 18, 2006, 08:38:35 AM
Or, in the words of my favorite philosopher, H.L. Menchen...
"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking."

This will probably only create more posts with no resolution on the topic, but let me try to explain what it's like to church-going Christians when people say stuff like this.  Very few analogies are close-to-perfect, and this one certainly is not since I only thought of it in the last 5 minutes.  I should probably qualify that I'm not trying to make a "good argument" or trying to change anyone's minds about anything; actually I really try to respect people regardless of what they believe about God, and usually don't talk about Christian faith or religion unless other people bring it up first. I'm just trying to illustrate my first reaction to comments like this.

It seems that many things in life are a two-edged sword: the sharper and more powerful it is, the more it can be used for good - or bad - actions.  In that sense, let me compare God to sex.  There are people out there who have little interest in sex, as hard as that can be to imagine.  Some of these people have never had an orgasm.  So what if one of these people came up to you and said... "wanting to engage in sex is a curse.  look at how many lives have been wrecked by rape.  look at all the children who have been emotionally scarred by pedophiles and the child porn industry.  think about how much more constructive time teens would have if they weren't thinking about sex all the time.  people are apt to lose all sense of reason when engaging in sex.  furthermore - engaging in sex is just increasing the world population at an alarming rate! we're ruining the world's oil reserves and rainforests because of this!"

and then, you have the gall to say... "but, sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing! celebrating sex is one of the most blessed and enjoyable things in the world!  and....... without sex you wouldn't be here!"

Go ahead and poke holes in my analogy; it's the overall reaction I'm trying to get across.

Joseph

Quote from: Joseph on September 18, 2006, 09:05:11 PM
This will probably only create more posts with no resolution on the topic, but let me try to explain what it's like to church-going Christians when people say stuff like this.  Very few analogies are close-to-perfect, and this one certainly is not since I only thought of it in the last 5 minutes.  I should probably qualify that I'm not trying to make a "good argument" or trying to change anyone's minds about anything; actually I really try to respect people regardless of what they believe about God, and usually don't talk about Christian faith or religion unless other people bring it up first. I'm just trying to illustrate my first reaction to comments like this.

It seems that many things in life are a two-edged sword: the sharper and more powerful it is, the more it can be used for good - or bad - actions.  In that sense, let me compare God to sex.  There are people out there who have little interest in sex, as hard as that can be to imagine.  Some of these people have never had an orgasm.  So what if one of these people came up to you and said... "wanting to engage in sex is a curse.  look at how many lives have been wrecked by rape.  look at all the children who have been emotionally scarred by pedophiles and the child porn industry.  think about how much more constructive time teens would have if they weren't thinking about sex all the time.  people are apt to lose all sense of reason when engaging in sex.  furthermore - engaging in sex is just increasing the world population at an alarming rate! we're ruining the world's oil reserves and rainforests because of this!"

and then, you have the gall to say... "but, sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing! celebrating sex is one of the most blessed and enjoyable things in the world!  and....... without sex you wouldn't be here!"

Go ahead and poke holes in my analogy; it's the overall reaction I'm trying to get across.

Joseph

I agree not because I am a church-going christian, but because it is one of the most intelligent answers that I have read.

tinkerbell

Hey everyone,

Cindianna_Jones,

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones

Elizabeth, I'm still trying to figure out how the theory of entropy figures in to the organization of life.  I'm still not sure how the two get along.  Entropy marches along grandly as we see it now. I love to discuss the philosophy of it all with those who will talk.

The entropy of a system is a measure of the disorder of the system.  Entropy of all systems always increases, meaning a higher state of disorder.  Think of it like a cup of marbles, the top half all white marbles and the bottom half all black marbles. This is an ordered system.  However, cover it and shake it up and it becomes disordered.  The white mixes with the black marbles.  How mixed they are is the entropy of the cup. And even though there is a probability that you could shake it and all the white marbles will end up on top and all the black marbles will be on the bottom, entropy says this will never happen.  Now add 150 other colors of marbles and shake the marbles enough times and you will see some really interesting and complex patterns will be formed.

The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today.  But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.

Hope that helps.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on September 18, 2006, 10:52:14 PM
The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today.  But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.

While I accept that complex proteins may have formed as you suggested, it is a huge leap to bring these proteins to life.  Furthermore, the further evolution of these proteins to complex lifeforms seems to fly in the face the second law of thermodynamics and the idea that things are becoming more disordered with time.  I belong to no organized religion but don't like the idea that happenstance and entrophy has led to life as we know it.  It is most likely that both organized religion and science are light-years from the truth of creation, both hobbled by their own limitations.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on September 18, 2006, 11:19:10 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on September 18, 2006, 10:52:14 PM
The particles of matter in our universe are no different. Life on this planet is a result of entropy. Enough particles got mixed together at just the right time for form complex proteins that became the carbon life forms we are today.  But it could never happen if all the particles in the universe stayed together in ordered systems. Eventually the particles that make us up will become more disordered and the particles we are made of will cease to exist as the natural atomic decay of all particles occurs. All because of entropy.

While I accept that complex proteins may have formed as you suggested, it is a huge leap to bring these proteins to life.  Furthermore, the further evolution of these proteins to complex lifeforms seems to fly in the face the second law of thermodynamics and the idea that things are becoming more disordered with time.  I belong to no organized religion but don't like the idea that happenstance and entrophy has led to life as we know it.  It is most likely that both organized religion and science are light-years from the truth of creation, both hobbled by their own limitations.

Dawn

And for this reason, I will say that I just don't know.  I do believe that it is within our abiltiy to learn and understand however.  When I look at the complexities of the universe, I fully expect that we will continue to learn how this all works.  We know more than most people can fathom. We can see solar systems forming in huge nebulae.  The physics describe how all that works.  We live in an amazing time.  Life is wonderful.  At the same time, we each have power we do not understand yet.  Some call it faith.  But I know that power is largely untapped because we don't know how it works.

Ultimately, a group of us can't sit down and decide how the universe and life were made or how they will end.  We need to keep working at it.  We can learn.

Peace.

Cindi