Quote from: kestin on April 11, 2009, 11:40:42 PM
lol, exactly "stereotypical gay man" is what I'm usually read as nowadays... cept, I can't for the life of me do that effeminate lisp thingee -_- heh

I don't do the lisp, but I can do the "British high camp / John Inman" voice.

Quote from: Yochanan on April 12, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
I prefer the term "effeminate"...

--Mr. Effeminate x]

I prefer the term "fabulous".

Quote from: Blanche on April 18, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
That's debatable.  Can I identify as a bird?  Yea I can but that would cause a lot of laughs.

This took me a few seconds to realise that you meant "aviary bird" and not "UK slang for girl bird".



Side-track --

Now that I'm thinking about it, i think in a few decades, guys wearing make-up and long hair, coloured hair, etc..., will be as "androgynised" as women wearing jeans is now.  So many rock musicians do it, and it's seen as pretty normal -- but thirty-some years ago, when it was pretty much just David Bowie, Marc Bolan, and Freddie Mercury (among others less famous), they'd get death-threats and it was treated as some incredibly freakish thing for any guy to do.

I'm not "femme", exactly -- I'm from the future. 

Quote from: SilverFang on April 15, 2009, 12:44:01 AMNot really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

Nope.

I don't consider myself femme. I do believe people should not be labeled. The last thing we want  to do is jump from one box to another. So as long as you are happy and not hurting anyone else just be yourself.
Andrew/Myles

I would not consider myself "femme". A better word would be "slightly effeminate" or "flamboyant" or even "quirky"...the fact that I play mostly fairies in my MMO says it all >.<. I have a couple things that are downright girly, but for the most part I'm very much not.

Non-femme here. I guess I may have a few female mannerisms due to upbringing but I don't like them

Definitely not a femme but I don't think that if you are femme it makes you any less of a man, I just happen to not be effeminate.

Not effeminate either, but to each his own.

Quote from: Shadowlyc on December 09, 2009, 09:19:59 PM
Non-femme here. I guess I may have a few female mannerisms due to upbringing but I don't like them

Ditto, except I'm partial to the ones I've got.

I do not believe that specific activities or mannerisms are gender-transformative of ones expression. We're transsexuals. Trying to draw clear lines as to what is 'manly' and what is 'girly' is exactly what many of us have been fighting against for years. Why reaffirm these stereotypes by judging ourselves according to them?

If a woman hawks a spit on the side of the road, is it a 'manly' thing that she has done? No, she is spitting, that is all it is, and she must be doing it in a 'womanly' way, because she is a woman! More appropriately, her spitting is spitting, and it means whatever she needs it to.

I like perfumed soaps. This preference is a trait largely attributed to women, stereotypically. However, my enjoyment of the soap is not 'womanly', or 'feminine', my enjoyment is manly, and something a man does, because I am a man. My behavior does not transform me into 'feminine', or 'masculine'. I think we would do better not to try too hard to lump ourselves with these things. It's enticing, because we can paint ourselves into a comfortable stereotype that way, but it reinforces the concept of a gender binary (girls do this, and boys do THAT!).

These kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 01:29:18 PM
I do not believe that specific activities or mannerisms are gender-transformative of ones expression. We're transsexuals. Trying to draw clear lines as to what is 'manly' and what is 'girly' is exactly what many of us have been fighting against for years. Why reaffirm these stereotypes by judging ourselves according to them?

If a woman hawks a spit on the side of the road, is it a 'manly' thing that she has done? No, she is spitting, that is all it is, and she must be doing it in a 'womanly' way, because she is a woman! More appropriately, her spitting is spitting, and it means whatever she needs it to.

I like perfumed soaps. This preference is a trait largely attributed to women, stereotypically. However, my enjoyment of the soap is not 'womanly', or 'feminine', my enjoyment is manly, and something a man does, because I am a man. My behavior does not transform me into 'feminine', or 'masculine'. I think we would do better not to try too hard to lump ourselves with these things. It's enticing, because we can paint ourselves into a comfortable stereotype that way, but it reinforces the concept of a gender binary (girls do this, and boys do THAT!).

These kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Good post. Honestly, I think my 'female' mannerisms can be more attributed to a lack of male repression than anything else. I simply wasn't taught that it was wrong to show emotion or like certain things.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 01:29:18 PMThese kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Too true.  I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

Which kinda begs the question of what the heck is so hetronormative if other groups (not hetro) hold those speech, attitude, stereotyping, and phobia deals more true than, as you are saying, straights do?  Then, in fact, are then normative to that community anymore?  Is there anything in fact that we can define across any wide boundary as hetero-normative, that is not in fact far more normative in communities that are using the term hetero-normative as some sort of derogatory dismissal of what they are mearly finding at the moment, inconvenient?

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2009, 03:58:48 PM
I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

Which kinda begs the question of what the heck is so hetronormative if other groups (not hetro) hold those speech, attitude, stereotyping, and phobia deals more true than, as you are saying, straights do?  Then, in fact, are then normative to that community anymore?  Is there anything in fact that we can define across any wide boundary as hetero-normative, that is not in fact far more normative in communities that are using the term hetero-normative as some sort of derogatory dismissal of what they are mearly finding at the moment, inconvenient?

Heyy there, you're referring to statements made by two separate people as one and questioning both of us for something one of us has stated. You're quoting YSR stating that straight people are sometimes even less heteronormative than TS's, and going 'then it isn't heteronormative, because the heteros aren't doing that, the TSs and gay people are, so what is heteronormative, if it obviously isn't even normal for heterosexuals'. The thing is, I never referred to straight people versus X in my posts, in regards to enforcement of heteronormative views. It's sad that we're often more rigidly binary-gendered in our attitudes than even cisgendered lesbians and gays, and other types of 'queer'.

I'm pointing out that I've experienced transpeople having a tendency to reflect more heteronormative/binarey gendered views than OTHER queer people(gay, lesbian, pansexual, genderqueer, androgyne- the people who are not 'T', in the alphabet soup of LGBTQIA), which seems like a contradiction, because by being transsexual and existing, we are not heteronormative. We as a group tend to be somewhat narrow minded and one-way-thinking, despite the fact that we have issues with cisgendered people behaving that way towards US, gay or straight. I made no comparison between transsexual people versus straight cissexual people. I'm talking about transperson views/attitudes versus other queer views/attitudes.

What I think YSR is pointing out here, is that many transpeople are even more rigidly heteronormative toward each other at times than cissexual people are towards THEM. Let me draw up a picture, here. Say almost all cisgendered heterosexuals eat bread, it just goes without saying that they do. Their bread eating comes with the territory for them. (So, eating bread here is heteronormative. It's enforced mostly by cisgendered heteros, just about all of them do it, and take their bread for granted and all that jazz.)

YSR is pointing out that some transpeople obsessively eat that bread, in some cases, even more voraciously than cisgendered heteros do. Does that suddenly make the bread eating nature not apply to cissexual heteros? No.  Belgian waffles are still Belgian waffles, even if they're being eaten somewhere not Belgium, or by someone not Belgian. The Belgian waffle could be crazily popular in Croatia, but it doesn't suddenly change the nature of the waffle, that doesn't make it suddenly a Croatian waffle. It's a Belgian style waffle being eaten and made in Croatia.

I'm half korean and cook korean food. I'm not a korean citizen, nor have I ever lived in korea. I live in Alaska. The korean food I make and eat is still korea-originated. The food doesn't become korean-german-irish-transsexual because I'm the one eating it. Your question strikes me as based more on semantics than concept; if I used the term 'binary-gender-reaffirming' would you still feel the need to question it so?

I'm not pointing these things out because they're 'inconvenient to me', I'm pointing them out because they have the potential to be inconvenient to others, and to individuals reinforcing these concepts, inconvenient upon themselves. Let me make a more succinct statement embodying the message I'm trying to convey without discriminating against cisgendered heterosexuals:

I think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

-EDITED: For minor grammatical errors. Also: society considers us 'weird' and feels the need to 'think harder' to comprehend us. By existing, we spin peoples heads- you'd think we'd put more effort into understanding our own predicament and what it means!

Oh wow. . . this isn't my argument and I have nothing of value to add to it but I have to say, that's a great response.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 05:43:40 PMI think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

Yeah, pretty much.  And also the fact that, well, since there are obviously things like pink shirts that are clearly designed for men to wear, ostensibly cisgendered and "straight" men, then to be so violently opposed to wearing a pink shirt on account of "that's girly" basically makes us bigger freaks.

My room-mate, presumably without intending to, is constantly saying little things that imply policing what I should and should not be doing because I'm a TS man.  Funny story about that:

I dragged him out to Jo-Ann Fabric & Crafts so I could stock up on various supplies for my paganness, including a holiday wreath of faux evergreen covered in so much glitter it makes Edward Cullen look matte.  I'm wearing a lavender t-shirt with my astrological sign on it and a headband with sequinned antennae (because now that I'm a grown-up, I can wear anything I want to the store and Mum can't tell me I can't  ).  At the end of the line by the registers, there's a big basket of mostly pastel chenille slipper-socks, and what does my room-mate say? 

"Gee, these look nice and warm.  Too bad they're so girly."

"I thought if anything was going to stop you from getting some, if you wanted them, it would be the fact that your shoe size is a UK13. [USM14, USL15, approximately]"

"Well, yeah, but I meant for you."

The lady behind us:  "Why would your brother care if his socks were pink? Are you looking at him?"  (On the rare occasion I get read right around here, people tend to assume I'm his kid brother)

He does this kind of ->-bleeped-<- all the time, and I've hinted at it like that dozens of times how irritating it is, and finally told him in the car, point blank, how ridiculous he's being.  He'd've never said something like that to our friend Joey (who's gay and about as "fabulous" as me -- but cis-, so apparently that gets him a Free Pass to be as non-stereotypical as he wants to  ), nor to the late John Inman.  He also has heard me kvetching for years about how annoying i find The ->-bleeped-<- Police(tm) -- trans persons who apparently have nothing better to do with themselves than sit around on the Internet all day, telling other TS persons what's "wrong" with their gender presentation, saying things that nobody would ever day say to cis- persons about their own presentation.


Of course, this whole issue gets more complex for TS women, especially the later in life they start transitioning, but the fact of the matter is, in both cases, cis- persons really aren't looking at all of the little perceived "flaws" in our appearances, mannerisms, and personalities as we think they are.  That's not to say "don't change anything during transition" -- just that the little quirks are more likely to be ignored than many TS people imagine.  Just find what works for you and don't sweat the rest.  And if what works for somebody else is a far cry from what would work for you, don't be a dingus.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 10, 2009, 07:59:30 PM
Just find what works for you and don't sweat the rest.  And if what works for somebody else is a far cry from what would work for you, don't be a dingus.

^ this. Thank you for it.

A minority group becoming intolerant of certain internal factions is just another step in social evolution. Shows how far we've come, and indicates that maybe we overshot the mark a wee bit..

[I'm non femme, non butch, I'm the happy in between]

-Ev

I am definitely on the effeminate side. Hey, I'm gay, (sort of) don't judge me! 

QuoteI think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

While I do agree that it is negative to reenforce stereotypes, I don't think that's what's going on in this thread.  The original poster wanted to know if there were other ftms like himself and "femme" is the best word he had to describe it. 

Stereotypes can be negative, but to be honest, I'm not sure this is even a thread about stereotypes.  We make comparisons to understand who we are, where we are in relation to other people, etc.  I understand that some people do get upset by labeling behaviors/mannerisms/looks as feminine or masculine, but in this case, I don't think that reaction would be justified. 

I'm not saying you're wrong or that these things don't need to be pointed out.  I'm just saying that we should save it for conversations that do take an offensive or chauvinistic turn.   

Quote from: Jaimey on December 14, 2009, 03:43:22 PM
While I do agree that it is negative to reenforce stereotypes, I don't think that's what's going on in this thread.  The original poster wanted to know if there were other ftms like himself and "femme" is the best word he had to describe it. 

Stereotypes can be negative, but to be honest, I'm not sure this is even a thread about stereotypes.  We make comparisons to understand who we are, where we are in relation to other people, etc.  I understand that some people do get upset by labeling behaviors/mannerisms/looks as feminine or masculine, but in this case, I don't think that reaction would be justified. 

I'm not saying you're wrong or that these things don't need to be pointed out.  I'm just saying that we should save it for conversations that do take an offensive or chauvinistic turn.   

Thanks for your insight, Jaimey. I'm not trying to come down on any fellow who considers himself feminine, he is allowed(of course), I'm just trying to encourage progressive thinking. FtMs considering themselves femme aren't the bane of forward thinking- it's all part of a greater whole, and a reflection of how deeply rooted the binary concepts of 'feminine' and 'masculine' are in everything, even objects and activities, which obviously don't have penises or vaginas on them. I suppose I was more making an observation on stereotyping in general, and the differences I notice in transcommunities versus other types of queer.

I wouldn't have felt the need to expound upon it so inclusively, but Tekla's input made me feel the need to clarify. I'm trying to give a thought provoking reminder, more than anything.  There's no reason to wait for things to be 'unacceptably chauvinist' in order to start questioning them.