And women use the shoulder cause most outer doors are too heavy in public buildings-----------?

The only true way to tell someone's gender is to DNA test them.   Look at the problems they had with the South African athlete at the world championship last year

Quote from: Sandy on January 19, 2010, 05:46:25 AM
Is it a PS2 or a USB keyboard?  The possible problems and solutions are different for both.

Neither, just the normal keyboard that came with the computer.

Wow, just... wow.  I go to sleep and when I wake up I have to pages of posts!  I didn't know this would get so heated.  As for all those bashing poor Matthew.  YES he starts conversations that can be considered perverted, or controversial.  However, our group doesn't mind.  In fact it's our fault for furthering the conversations.  I do not feel uncomfrotable talking about what we talking about, and I don't think Stephanie or Kaitlyn do either.  If they did, and said so I'm sure Matt would stop.  I don't think he is worried about trans women (or men) it's just something he found interesting on a show he was watching and decided to bring it up since the conversation hit "sex changes" at the end of the day.

I'm actually glad he brought it up, because it was a chance for me to explain everything I knew about sex changes and GID; let me clear some misconceptions up.  He has not asked me if I am trans, though his comment was "HOLY CRAP!.... How do you know so much?"  Though if he asked me, my wife tells me I HAVE to tell him lol.  Though yea I probably will, why hide it.

Quote from: Pippa on January 19, 2010, 11:56:47 AM
The only true way to tell someone's gender is to DNA test them.

Still worthless.

There simply is no concrete way to determine someone's sex/gender at this time. There's a million different indicators, but they're all flawed.

Guess science wasn't your best subject.  But DNA -and you don't even have to go that far - can determine sex.  But perhaps, not gender.

Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:36:17 PM
Neither, just the normal keyboard that came with the computer.

The symptom smacks of being a problem in the keyboard.  More than likely if the computer has was made in the last 5 years or so, it is a USB keyboard (the connector is rectangular).

If so, try plugging/replugging the keyboard (without restarting the computer) to see if that helps.  Also, how much detritus has built up in the keyboard (dirt, hair, crumbs, ashes).  If it has been well used, it could be time for a good cleaning or retirement.  Basic keyboards would be given away in Crackerjack boxes if they could figure out a way to get them in there, so finding a replacement should be pretty simple.

If it is a round connector, it is a PS2 style keyboard and plugging/replugging could actually crash your machine, so do try to detect the difference.

Regardless, replacement is a viable option.

-Sandy

Where I work, the boss was a little freaked out because he thought a new female hire was a TS. He still hired her and treated her respectfully, but was more than curious. No one ever asked her directly, and the interest died down eventually. Personally, I thought she just had a body type that was not stereotypically "feminine." (I am not out at work, so my appearance does not get discussed - as far as I know). I think it could have been bad for her if the boss was not so aware of anti-discrimination and anti-hostile environment laws - and the boss was not basically a nice, if ignorant, guy.

How to tell someone is, well, whatever, is one of those things that shouldn't be important. If I am not going to have sex with you, your genitalia or orientation or identity are not my business. It comes up, as I described above, for many people who do not have a conventional appearance. Or for many people in contact with people who think it is their business.

I push the idea you cannot really tell. Whatever science says is based on groups - groups - and individuals are unique and gloriously variable. (My index and ring fingers are the same size - and that means exactly nothing - individual variation is to big for these things to mean anything about an individual).

So the only way you can tell whatever a person is, is to ask them. And they can say its "none of your business," or they may not know. Still, I guess its fun to speculate sometimes - as long as no one gets hurt.

Quote from: tekla on January 19, 2010, 03:04:33 PM
Guess science wasn't your best subject.  But DNA -and you don't even have to go that far - can determine sex.  But perhaps, not gender.

How? Chromosomes? Can you honestly, with a straight face tell me you think women with CAIS or Swyer syndrome are actually, really, men? Really? If we didn't know about chromosomes we wouldn't have any reason to call them men to begin with. Why is everyone so hung up on this chromosome thing? It's a rule that nature breaks all the time, just like everything else.



Guess she's really a man then.

Chromosomes are a near useless sex/gender (I don't really care about the literal differences with them either) indicator. I don't know about you, but I trust what I can see and hear over two letters that make no apparent difference.

When it comes to sex/gender (I'm trying hard not to get people to jump on me over the difference) I would still argue that there are exceptions to EVERY rule, and there is NO clear marker. You just have to go on what you see.

If you want to believe that chromosomes are the law and there is no room for interpretation, meaning that people are potentially male or female with absolutely no respect to what should be obvious that they aren't, obviously you have every right to that interpretation. But it makes me sad that some people (I'm not talking about you specifically) are so narrow minded and have this error prone belief that chromosomes are the final word.

Chromosomes are an even worse indicator of sex than genitals are.

Some you would spot very easily in a shopping mall......and some (a very small percent) you would never know in a million years!

I've always looked at it as natal females that have one of the big three or more also have a million things that make them female to even the keel, when a TS has one of the big three or more then it's added to the already established list of other gender queues that give them away which tips the scales big time.
I understand your point and in a perfect world sure, but to me it's unrealistic to just tell people to get over their hang ups as it's just not that simple for a lot of us, we deal with it in our own time and in our own way. I don't think people go looking for things to complain about, if they do then sure there's a problem. But some things are just hard to get over, takes time.
I've had my mum tell me my hands are fine and another time say they will give me away and both times I believed her.
My biggest fear when I'm out in public is not the things that give me away but simply that they'll see me as a guy dressed as a girl as a whole, sure that will hopefully change in time.. but it's very real and I'm not going to delude myself.
Today in a shop I updated an account from my old name to my new name and the guy didn't bat an eyelid, but the young girl afterwards at the counter obviously picked me and was nervous and kept looking at my boobs to see if they were real. I don't think it effected me but it's very much there in my face.. a cruel reminder of how much I have to try to better myself. Not just for others but for me, for peace of mind.
And in the eyes of my local TG community I apparently pass without a worry :S
Maybe I am mad.

So this is my theory, and it can def be much easier to say than do:
But I feel that it is a one thing for a person that's been labeled a boy or man to come to terms with the realization that she really is a girl, but it is a whole different and bigger thing to come to terms with the reality that she is a TS girl or woman.  I feel that when people transition before they've taken that second step they can open themselves up to all kinds of problems- one of them being living with a complex about being read all the time.  If somebody reads you as being a TS girl, so what?  You are a TS girl!  It makes you no less a girl than does an Asian girl's being Asian.

Confidence will help you pass, being a nerotic mess will not.

Another detriment to being in public before finding your peace with being trans, especially for full-timers, is this business of making up a back-story/deep stealth stuff.  You've emancipated yourself from living a lie and then stepped right back into living a new one.  I just don't see the benefit in that without some extenuating circumstances forcing you into it, which happens.

Don't get me wrong, I don't promote wearing your transness on your sleeve or anything, I sure as hell don't do that.  Frankly, it's nobody's business and you have zero obligation to tell anybody unless you so choose, with very few exceptions.  But if it comes up and you feel like you have to talk about 10 years ago (or whatever) and you'd rather not bother with avoiding the topic for w/e reason, why not be honest?  Be who you are, own it, love it.

Think of it this way, if you are an awesome person and people find out/figure out you're trans, they should realize OMG, TS women can be awesome, I never knew!  And you'll have done all of us some good.  We all have the ability to advocate for our entire community just by living well and being rad.  How easy is that?

Sure beats getting sprayed with a firehose. =P

I don't have anything to add; I just came to say thanks for posting that, Jen.

<3

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 19, 2010, 05:09:12 PM
How? Chromosomes? Can you honestly, with a straight face tell me you think women with CAIS or Swyer syndrome are actually, really, men? Really? If we didn't know about chromosomes we wouldn't have any reason to call them men to begin with. Why is everyone so hung up on this chromosome thing? It's a rule that nature breaks all the time, just like everything else.

Not by XX/XY maybe. But faulty androgen receptor genes are present in them. Unless there's some sort of radical hormonal intervention during early developmental periods, it's all in the genes.

Quote from: SilverFang on January 20, 2010, 03:13:50 AM
Not by XX/XY maybe. But faulty androgen receptor genes are present in them. Unless there's some sort of radical hormonal intervention during early developmental periods, it's all in the genes.

Ok so, if I understand you correctly, the XX vs XY rules don't count if there is another genetic defect causing insensitivity or deficiency in production of sex hormones in the womb.

So then... wouldn't that mean that genes determine only what gender you appear to be at birth, and we're only deciding that one set or characteristics mean one thing based on appearance at birth?

It seems to me like you're changing the rules to suit the exceptions.

If XX vs XY doesn't matter because other genetic defects can cause them not to matter, but it only doesn't matter if those genetic defects are present at birth.

And what if gender dysphoria is present at birth? Does that exception not count as an exception? Why does one thing count as an exception and another not purely based on what your phenotypical birth appears to be?

And what if you have ambiguous genitalia? Do we then go by chromosomes despite how flawed they are?

These don't seem to be easy questions to resolve trying to maintain such a simplistic viewpoint.

If you ask me, the simplest most accurate way to determine sex/gender, is to simply look and listen to the person and let visible reality tell you. Everything else is flawed and arbitrary.

Quote from: Jen on January 19, 2010, 11:01:44 PM
So this is my theory, and it can def be much easier to say than do:
But I feel that it is a one thing for a person that's been labeled a boy or man to come to terms with the realization that she really is a girl, but it is a whole different and bigger thing to come to terms with the reality that she is a TS girl or woman.  I feel that when people transition before they've taken that second step they can open themselves up to all kinds of problems- one of them being living with a complex about being read all the time.  If somebody reads you as being a TS girl, so what?  You are a TS girl!  It makes you no less a girl than does an Asian girl's being Asian.

I'd say I fall into the category of not accepting that I'm TS simply because I hate it.. I don't want to be seen as TS. I just want to be normal which will no doubt never happen but I'm sure as hell going to try. I can't be male and I refuse to be a TS for the rest of my life. I'm not sure if I'm setting myself up for a fall maybe just raising the bar to really difficult heights. Maybe one day I will unknowingly accept that I am TS but I will replace the word TS with woman which is deluding myself I know but if it works then I'll be happy.
I just know that every time I don't pass in the future a part of me will feel hate for being what I really am, something I feel forced to accept because of others.
I just wish (like everyone reading this no doubt) the general publics view of (mtf) TSs was that of being a women with a tough past not men/freaks in dresses that may or may not still have a hidden package.
----------------

Quote from: Jen on January 19, 2010, 11:01:44 PM
Think of it this way, if you are an awesome person and people find out/figure out you're trans, they should realize OMG, TS women can be awesome, I never knew!  And you'll have done all of us some good.  We all have the ability to advocate for our entire community just by living well and being rad.  How easy is that?

Sure beats getting sprayed with a firehose. =P

Sure we'll all find people that are cool and accepting and will realise that we are human after all. But there will always be those few that feel it's necessary to remind us of what we really are. And it's because of them that I have to think of myself as a TS woman, instead of having the liberty to know myself as just a women with an interesting background. It's because of them that I have to laugh and say "yeah I am TS and I am awesome".
I really wish I had it in me to fly the flag but I can't I need to feel that transition is something temporary and that I will be me (female) and not forever a TS just because of a few bad apples.
Maybe I need to delude myself, maybe I need to to feel like I'm just a woman. It's an option, and yeah.. sure it's not as good as being proud to be TS but... I feel it will work for me .. I guess much like stealth works for some.

I'm with you 100% Muffin.

muffin i can understand why you don't want to be called a ts and you don't have to feel obligated to publicise your history to anyone around you, but i think deep down we all know we are not totally woman, at least mentally...i mean, come'on, living all those years in your current opposite gender for x years is sure to do something to you.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 20, 2010, 03:38:54 AM
Ok so, if I understand you correctly, the XX vs XY rules don't count if there is another genetic defect causing insensitivity or deficiency in production of sex hormones in the womb.

So then... wouldn't that mean that genes determine only what gender you appear to be at birth, and we're only deciding that one set or characteristics mean one thing based on appearance at birth?

It seems to me like you're changing the rules to suit the exceptions.

If XX vs XY doesn't matter because other genetic defects can cause them not to matter, but it only doesn't matter if those genetic defects are present at birth.

And what if gender dysphoria is present at birth? Does that exception not count as an exception? Why does one thing count as an exception and another not purely based on what your phenotypical birth appears to be?

And what if you have ambiguous genitalia? Do we then go by chromosomes despite how flawed they are?

These don't seem to be easy questions to resolve trying to maintain such a simplistic viewpoint.

If you ask me, the simplest most accurate way to determine sex/gender, is to simply look and listen to the person and let visible reality tell you. Everything else is flawed and arbitrary.

Well nobody's really sure yet as far as I know? Who knows? Maybe gender is genetically determined. There could be a gene for it, seeing as how we don't really know what all the genes do yet. Gender dysphoria might just be a milder form of intersexuality. As for intersexuality, I still blame hormone receptors/abnormal production.

Anyway, I was just referring to physical sex. I'm not qualified to determine anyone's gender. Easier to just tell me.

But yeah, my point is that if we were advanced enough then genetic testing would be able to "out" a TS. But we can't with current technology.

Milktea, I was almost there with you. But then your post went haywire.

I don't feel any need to disclose any of my history to anyone. But neither am I ashamed to be transsexual. It's part of my life. I'm also white, right-handed, and brown-haired. None of that has any bearing on whether I'm a woman. So I will say that I'm transsexual, even if I don't proclaim it from the hilltops.

But if your definition of transsexual implies "not totally a woman," then fuggedaboutit. I want nothing to do with that. If that is the only definition available, I'll stand firmly with the people who say they're "not trans-anything." Look: I am a woman. And I am real. Conclusion: I am a real woman. If you insist upon some arbitrary definition of woman that singles out transsexual woman as inauthentic, that's your problem. Good luck with that.

As for all that genetic reductionist nonsense -- obviously you all aren't all that good at science. Sure, genes are hugely influential and highly correlated to specific types of outcomes, but there's a lot more that goes into making a person than genes. It's not even a nature/nurture argument: nurture is nature. There's no bright line.

edit: stupid typos.