Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 20, 2010, 06:22:46 PM
nurture is nature. There's no bright line.

^ I love that
...and totally agree with everything else you said.

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Post Merge: January 20, 2010, 11:44:30 AM

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Okay and the rest of this is for Muffin-

Maybe one day I will unknowingly accept that I am TS
I think your life will be much easier for you when that day comes.  I think you understand that though .

I think I have a different way of thinking about the word "Transsexual" than you do.  For me, TS is a pronoun not a noun.  Like, I don't identify as a TS, it just is part of who I am.  I would never ever ever ...ever say I'm a transsexual.  I might, however, say I'm a TS woman, just like I'm a tall woman, or a white woman.  TS, for me, is really just shorthand for woman born male.  ...Does that help, maybe? 

Also, I don't want you to misunderstand this, I wasn't suggesting that anybody "fly the flag" all I was trying to convey was if you weren't ashamed of this aspect of your womanhood, then talking honestly about your past (if you needed to) wouldn't have to be so horrifying anymore- which more importantly, means you wouldn't have to keep track of a fictional past-- which even more importantly, means you wouldn't have to be living a new kind of lie.

Personally, I have no interest in advertising my past. In practice I avoid such subjects.  I'll say something like 'I don't like talking about my childhood' or whatever.  For 99.9% of people I meet, it just isn't their business.

I need to feel that transition is something temporary and that I will be me (female) and not forever a TS just because of a few bad apples.
Maybe I need to delude myself, maybe I need to to feel like I'm just a woman.

Transition is temporary, by definition.  You will be female afterward, and you always have been, always will be a girl/woman.  Transition is just the process of pulling down the facade you've been hiding behind and revealing the real person underneath.  This is partly why I just can't imagine putting up a new, albeit prettier, one (fake past) after getting rid of that thing.

You don't even have to be proud of your TS-iness, just try be okay with it.  Self-loathing is no fun.

I actually totally agree with all of that.  I didn't want to get into all those details because I was already being wordy enough. =P

I dunno if the last bit was directed at me, but if so you have completely misunderstood my intended meaning.  It's okay though, it happens to me enough that I know it's a 'me' thing.

Arguing with people that agree with me gets a little exhausting though.

Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:21:35 AM
Lifting his hand up to demonstrate he replied `What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger.  However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.`

Bio-male here, with fingers that are not even length.

Just adding another data point to the discussion

Quote from: riven_one on January 21, 2010, 10:18:03 AM
Bio-male here, with fingers that are not even length.

Just adding another data point to the discussion

OMG, that's a game changer! now you know your really a TS, LOL

Quote from: Ketsy on January 19, 2010, 01:38:51 AM
That theory is even more ridiculous than the arm bend one.

I respectfully disagree Ketsy, I think the arm bend "research" is the biggest load of crap "science" has come up with in a while...in this particular area.

Quote from: Becca on January 21, 2010, 11:29:24 PM
I respectfully disagree Ketsy, I think the arm bend "research" is the biggest load of crap "science" has come up with in a while...in this particular area.

Also, the index ratio thing has actual published studies relating to it. I'm not aware of any on that arm bend thing, in fact I've only ever seen one source of the arm bend theory, I've seen several for index ratio.

And index ratio is already correlated with several other things.

So yeah, far from more ridiculous, I would say it's not ridiculous at all. Although it's still nothing to do with it being even or not. A longer index finger indicates more feminized prenatal hormone exposure, not less.

There's a LOT of crap that circulates, that when something like this comes along, it's very easy to dismiss it as crap too. But there's a lot of research that suggests index ratio is at the very least, not a purely random characteristic.

And there's no question that most females have a higher ratio than most males.

Google if you don't believe me.

"Published studies" that are not peer-reviewed double-bind based, are pretty much 'not science.'

Being on Google is not proof of anything, the Aryan Movement web site is on Google too, it does not make them 'right.'

Quote from: tekla on January 21, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
"Published studies" that are not peer-reviewed double-bind based, are pretty much 'not science.'

Being on Google is not proof of anything, the Aryan Movement web site is on Google too, it does not make them 'right.'

Fine, since you won't spend the 2 minutes googling, I will.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-47RJP8F-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=768614bee6bde4a232c96e1eee2337cf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-4CYWRB6-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bb016ad43037249035bbc574d756372b

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/40/12/981

http://www.springerlink.com/content/9djv5bt7gy0jbxbm/

I really don't feel like finding more since you are perfectly capable of doing so yourself.

But please don't choose to intentionally misinterpret what I say by suggesting that I said that being on google made it proof.

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on January 21, 2010, 11:45:15 PM
fine, but it has very little to do with us.

its another artificial "more trans than you marker" that will be used to make some people feel that they are inauthentic or not real....we have enough problems coming to terms with being trans without misapplied science playing on our fears.

Ignoring information we don't like doesn't make it go away.

Topics like this really get my panties in a knot, and I tried really hard not to weigh in but the bull->-bleeped-<- is getting so deep that someone needs too. That's not exactly what I meant, but it works I guess. The thing I don't see is a point: why is this being researched and funded? Unfortuntaely we need to know who is funding research as well as it's results.

One thing I've learned since I started school, give me enough time and pages and I can prove or disprove anything. I'm not going to google it, I'm familiar with the concept and it's a loose correlation at best. Now listen to this, because it's important: No One Can Know. When we latch on to research like this as a means of proving to ourself that we are or are not trans, we hurt ourselves and we hurt questioners who might not share the characterstic we are evaluating. Whatever it is that makes us the way we are will never be known because there aren't enough of us to study. If it has a medical basis, which I personally doubt, general observations of different characteristics of the male and female populations wouldn't apply anyway because we would, by all accounts, be mutants or deviations of nature's norm. Such characteristics are also influenced by hormones in the beef one eats, the proximity of your home/school to high voltage power lines, how close you are to the toxic levels of iodine released into the water table of the west during the 70s, you name it. Sorry but it just doesn't work.

So yeah, take whatever measures one feels necessary for validation, but let's not try and pass it off as science. Every time I see one of these threads I have to weigh in with my opinion that it's junk science, so that when someone who is questioning sees it and checks their arm ratios or measures their fingers and comes up in the normal male range they don't rule out transitioning and blow their heads off instead. What is this a freaking game of I'm-more-trans-than-you? That's great if you win but where does it leave the losers?

Quote from: Becca on January 22, 2010, 12:01:17 AM
Topics like this really get my panties in a knot, and I tried really hard not to weigh in but the bull->-bleeped-<- is getting so deep that someone needs too. That's not exactly what I meant, but it works I guess. The thing I don't see is a point: why is this being researched and funded? Unfortuntaely we need to know who is funding research as well as it's results.

One thing I've learned since I started school, give me enough time and pages and I can prove or disprove anything. I'm not going to google it, I'm familiar with the concept and it's a loose correlation at best. Now listen to this, because it's important: No One Can Know. When we latch on to research like this as a means of proving to ourself that we are or are not trans, we hurt ourselves and we hurt questioners who might not share the characterstic we are evaluating. Whatever it is that makes us the way we are will never be known because there aren't enough of us to study. If it has a medical basis, which I personally doubt, general observations of different characteristics of the male and female populations wouldn't apply anyway because we would, by all accounts, be mutants or deviations of nature's norm. Such characteristics are also influenced by hormones in the beef one eats, the proximity of your home/school to high voltage power lines, how close you are to the toxic levels of iodine released into the water table of the west during the 70s, you name it. Sorry but it just doesn't work.

So yeah, take whatever measures one feels necessary for validation, but let's not try and pass it off as science. Every time I see one of these threads I have to weigh in with my opinion that it's junk science, so that when someone who is questioning sees it and checks their arm ratios or measures their fingers and comes up in the normal male range they don't rule out transitioning and blow their heads off instead. What is this a freaking game of I'm-more-trans-than-you? That's great if you win but where does it leave the losers?

As far as I can see, this game is all in your head. So far the only people I've seen suggest that the index ratio thing is being seen by anyone as a rule and not a generality are the people trying to attack the nonexistent people they perceive as calling it a rule to begin with.

Nobody here is trying to prove or disprove, ironically the people most aggressive and antagonistic about this whole subject, is NOT the people bringing up the subject, but the people attacking the people bringing it up because they're perceiving it as an attack that it isn't.

I know it isn't an attack, it's entirely well meaning. The pursuit of understanding and knowledge is never a bad thing. Throw in some research on the hypothalamus and prenatal hormones exposre/lack thereof and it's fascinating scientific mental weight lifting. However until the subject is studied exclusively for gathering trans-data and like the rest of the skeptic patrol mentioned is double blind etc the research isn't valid for us and is dangerous. I don't know how to express how much it bothers me without coming off as defensive. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket about it.

The game is not in my head. People like us are always looking for validation, our group has a ridiculously high suicide rate, and stuff like this is like those fake vaginas in that other lol thread; interesting but not practical.

I did bookmark the first link, I'll find out monday if my university has a subscription to it.

Quote from: Becca on January 22, 2010, 12:27:14 AM
I know it isn't an attack, it's entirely well meaning. The pursuit of understanding and knowledge is never a bad thing. Throw in some research on the hypothalamus and prenatal hormones exposre/lack thereof and it's fascinating scientific mental weight lifting. However until the subject is studied exclusively for gathering trans-data and like the rest of the skeptic patrol mentioned is double blind etc the research isn't valid for us and is dangerous. I don't know how to express how much it bothers me without coming off as defensive. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket about it.

The game is not in my head. People like us are always looking for validation, our group has a ridiculously high suicide rate, and stuff like this is like those fake vaginas in that other lol thread; interesting but not practical.

Nobody said it was practical. Just interesting.

How exactly do you double blind a study involving TS's... how exactly are you going to NOT know you're in the control vs TS group? lol

It's not like this is testing to see if a drug works or not, it's seeing if the finger is longer or not. You're not going to get a great placebo effect on that.

bottom line: it's just like chromosomes INCONCLUSIVE. It means nothing but hormone exposure in the womb which isn't connected to gender at all. It's just like MTFs generally have bigger hands, shoulders and feet.. doesn't change what you feel to be true in your mind.. it's just purely physical.

Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 12:54:33 AM
It means nothing but hormone exposure in the womb which isn't connected to gender at all.

You can't be serious...

Hormone exposure in the womb, is more connected to gender, sex, whatever you want to call it than ANY other factor of child birth by far.

It is pretty much the final word on how you turn out physically when you're born.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 22, 2010, 12:56:50 AM
You can't be serious...

Hormone exposure in the womb, is more connected to gender, sex, whatever you want to call it than ANY other factor of child birth by far.

It is pretty much the final word on how you turn out physically when you're born.

I refer to gender in the sense of who you feel you are, not on a biological level.
If you feel that digit ratio makes you less of a women/man whatever then there are problems and a cause for concern. and on the other hand (pun hugely intended) if you feel that digit ratio makes you more of a man/women whatever then there are equal causes for concern.
Hence me saying it means nothing it's purely physical which is why people start HRT and have ops to change the body they are in, unfortunately we can't change finger length but luckily it doesn't determine what gender/sex you REALLY are.
Oh ..IMO.

Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 01:54:52 AM
I refer to gender in the sense of who you feel you are, not on a biological level.
If you feel that digit ratio makes you less of a women/man whatever then there are problems and a cause for concern. and on the other hand (pun hugely intended) if you feel that digit ratio makes you more of a man/women whatever then there are equal causes for concern.
Hence me saying it means nothing it's purely physical which is why people start HRT and have ops to change the body they are in, unfortunately we can't change finger length but luckily it doesn't determine what gender/sex you REALLY are.
Oh ..IMO.

Who you are is a biological level. You can't completely separate your mind and sense of self from the physical system which drives it.

You're thinking of this too black and white. That it's either no relationship or an absolute relationship. What I think is that index ratio likely is an indicator that is not unrelated to various aspects of who you are, gender identity included. But that's all, it's an indicator, it doesn't say anything about you absolutely. But it's not entirely unrelated either.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 22, 2010, 12:33:25 AM
Nobody said it was practical. Just interesting.

How exactly do you double blind a study involving TS's... how exactly are you going to NOT know you're in the control vs TS group? lol

It's not like this is testing to see if a drug works or not, it's seeing if the finger is longer or not. You're not going to get a great placebo effect on that.

No, but what you might get is a researcher with a preference for Asian features, a study done in an area that is mostly German white or irish white or black and so on. If one were to properly research something like this a good way to go about it would be to solicit the participation of the more prolific therapists to provide photocopies of their clients hands, code them and mix them in with photocopies of the general population and see if a trend emerges.
The you do it again. Then other people repeat it. Then you get to have a theory, not before. The problem is you'd need thousands of participants from all over to even make a claim of validity. I have to admit the study you linked with 68 looks better than some. If such a study were done, I don't think there would be an appreciable difference in ratio.

Yeah I probably should come clean, I'm not a doctor or anything of the sort >_<
Lol.

Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 01:54:52 AMunfortunately we can't change finger length

I guess technically you could but why would you want to? lol

I'd rather add a finger!! It might make me pick up the guitar again!