For all you smart folk in here, is it true our brain morphology actually changes on HRT?

That's what studies have indicated.

http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/suppl_1/S107

Yes, I think that the studies indicate that the brain is changed by hormones even late in life.
This doesn't really explain why the average man on the street would not respond well to estrogen!

It's good to remember that your brain is a dynamic organ.
If you start learning piano now it will result in rewiring and reallocation of parts of your brain.
How else can you explain that experienced musicians can talk on the phone and play at the same time?

That's "muscle memory" my dear. I don't know how much it has to do with rewiring the brain. But certainly once you have learned something to that point, it is going to be with you forever.

I used to play keyboard in a band, back in the days of Dylan, Lightfoot, etc. After not touching a piano for 20 years I sat down at one and within 30 minutes I had half a dozen songs back without opening a book, and once they started coming, they came fast and furious.

Muscle memory is like riding a bike..... 


But really, if hormones dictate the structure and cell ratio (grey / white) of our brains, and our brains are constantly changing - then it's pretty logical that any new growth after HRT would be consistant with whatever hormone is dominant at the time.

Quote from: Renate on January 23, 2010, 08:49:36 AM
This doesn't really explain why the average man on the street would not respond well to estrogen!

Isn't the current thinking that some hormones "glitched up" in utero in transsexuals, and created some slightly different brain structures?

Perhaps (shooting in the dark here folks) those subtle changes mean transsexuals react positivly to HRT, and cisgendered people...well... badly?

Could also be psychologial I suppose. The cisman doesn't want to be more emotional, more curvy, or a bit soft 'round the edges. The cisman likes being a man!

I know, none of this weighs up.

If hormones during our lifetime changed the sructure of our brain, then WHY does current thinking say an in utero glitch is a contributer to a life-long non-contiguous gender identity?

Wouldn't the brain structure and therefore identity "fix itself" as soon as biologically consistant hormones started to appear?

If hormones change so much, then why does the administration of birth-sex consistant hormones not "fix" a transsexual?

Yet so many people report identity consistant HRT changing the way they think in a positive manner....

Top flight neuroscientists are still figuring it all out. Speaking as an IT tech... I should probably just go eat tacos and play with servers now

Quote from: Teknoir on January 24, 2010, 05:41:24 AM
Muscle memory is like riding a bike..... 


But really, if hormones dictate the structure and cell ratio (grey / white) of our brains, and our brains are constantly changing - then it's pretty logical that any new growth after HRT would be consistant with whatever hormone is dominant at the time.

Isn't the current thinking that some hormones "glitched up" in utero in transsexuals, and created some slightly different brain structures?

Perhaps (shooting in the dark here folks) those subtle changes mean transsexuals react positivly to HRT, and cisgendered people...well... badly?

Could also be psychologial I suppose. The cisman doesn't want to be more emotional, more curvy, or a bit soft 'round the edges. The cisman likes being a man!

I know, none of this weighs up.

If hormones during our lifetime changed the sructure of our brain, then WHY does current thinking say an in utero glitch is a contributer to a life-long non-contiguous gender identity?

Wouldn't the brain structure and therefore identity "fix itself" as soon as biologically consistant hormones started to appear?

If hormones change so much, then why does the administration of birth-sex consistant hormones not "fix" a transsexual?

Yet so many people report identity consistant HRT changing the way they think in a positive manner....

Top flight neuroscientists are still figuring it all out. Speaking as an IT tech... I should probably just go eat tacos and play with servers now

The thinking is that whatever controls gender identity can't be changed once set. In the same way that your genitals are formed in the womb by hormonal influences, but they can't be changed once they're set.

Hormones may change some brain proportional size, but they don't give you an entirely new brain.

Quote from: Nero on January 22, 2010, 10:39:31 PM
For all you smart folk in here, is it true our brain morphology actually changes on HRT?

I don't buy it!

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 25, 2010, 02:29:22 PM
I don't buy it!

Uhh.. any particular reason?

Studies have indicated not only that it does, but that it wouldn't be surprising because HRT also decreases the brain mass of post menopausal women.

Quote from: Teknoir on January 24, 2010, 05:41:24 AM
Isn't the current thinking that some hormones "glitched up" in utero in transsexuals, and created some slightly different brain structures?

The study that lead to that theory had a major scientific flaw -- every subject which demonstrated differences in their brains had undergone HRT.  Ironically the studies which disproved it were the very ones which proved the topic of this thread.

One of the current theories is that transsexuality may actually lie on the autism spectrum.  But given the lack of understanding of the autism spectrum it could be a while until it's proven/ dis-proven.

Quote from: pheonix on January 26, 2010, 07:16:56 PM
The study that lead to that theory had a major scientific flaw -- every subject which demonstrated differences in their brains had undergone HRT.  Ironically the studies which disproved it were the very ones which proved the topic of this thread.

One of the current theories is that transsexuality may actually lie on the autism spectrum.  But given the lack of understanding of the autism spectrum it could be a while until it's proven/ dis-proven.

Can you back that up at all?

As far as I am aware, although you're right that study did have that flaw, a second study found the same conclusion with much better controls.

The theory that it lies on the autism spectrum, sounds like utter crap to me, I'd appreciate any links to more information on that, I googled but couldn't find anything.

EDIT: Furthermore, the study that proved the subject of this thread, was conducted using MRI scans, the study that you claim to have been disproved studied an area of the brain too small to image with an MRI. So, sorry but, I don't think you really have a leg to stand on here. The second study in fact found that hormonal exposure had negligible impact on the region of the brain at question.

By all means correct me if I'm mistaken though. But if I'm not, I would hope that in the future you will refrain from making such statements of fact without any kind of support.

I think saying ->-bleeped-<-s fall into the autism spectrum is just a bunch of people trying to justify social failures by claiming to be aspies.

It's hard to make friends and socially integrate for a lot of transsexuals because of lack of medical care, early/preventative treatment at puberty and adulthood, and all the other bull->-bleeped-<- we go through.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 25, 2010, 02:49:08 PM
Uhh.. any particular reason?

Studies have indicated not only that it does, but that it wouldn't be surprising because HRT also decreases the brain mass of post menopausal women.

Ok, if it is true it's not obvious and I don't think or feel any different as I did pre-HRT.

I know from just 4 months of HRT that it changes our brains. I can feel it. I am no longer a powder keg ready to blow. I can think now, (although I have become a tad forgetful).
I am happy and feel better adjusted than I ever had prior to hrt. If nothing else HRT changes our brains chemistry for sure.
As for the Autism/trans conection...I believe it. I have mild aspergers and I am trans. I know autism/aspergers when I see it and I see it in spades in the trans comunity. There is nothing wrong with having something associated with the condition. We can not say it is a cause, it could be a symptom for all we know right now and I suspect it is just a symptom of trans to be on the autism spectrum not the cause. Because not all trans have it.
The cause is more than likely in utero. Just because there are some holes in research it does not dismiss the theory.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 27, 2010, 08:49:26 AM
I know from just 4 months of HRT that it changes our brains. I can feel it. I am no longer a powder keg ready to blow.

I do blow a fuse quite a lot....more so these days...and 10 years on HRT.. 

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 27, 2010, 12:18:22 PM
I do blow a fuse quite a lot....more so these days...and 10 years on HRT..

I blew more fuses on my natural E than I do on my HRT T.  Testosterone makes me ZEN..... LOL


Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on January 27, 2010, 12:30:41 PM
I blew more fuses on my natural E than I do on my HRT T.  Testosterone makes me ZEN..... LOL


Jay

Same here.

Naturally Blonde, it might not be the HRT. Some women have quick tempers regardless of their estrogen levels.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 27, 2010, 08:49:26 AM
I know from just 4 months of HRT that it changes our brains. I can feel it. I am no longer a powder keg ready to blow. I can think now, (although I have become a tad forgetful).
I am happy and feel better adjusted than I ever had prior to hrt. If nothing else HRT changes our brains chemistry for sure.
As for the Autism/trans conection...I believe it. I have mild aspergers and I am trans. I know autism/aspergers when I see it and I see it in spades in the trans comunity. There is nothing wrong with having something associated with the condition. We can not say it is a cause, it could be a symptom for all we know right now and I suspect it is just a symptom of trans to be on the autism spectrum not the cause. Because not all trans have it.
The cause is more than likely in utero. Just because there are some holes in research it does not dismiss the theory.

If TS is on the autism spectrum. Why do many TS's quite obviously have no more symptoms than the normal adult population?

Quote from: Nero on January 27, 2010, 12:44:17 PM
Same here.

Naturally Blonde, it might not be the HRT. Some women have quick tempers regardless of their estrogen levels.

My point is Nero that I haven't changed in temperament.

Quote from: sneakersjay on January 27, 2010, 12:30:41 PM
I blew more fuses on my natural E than I do on my HRT T.  Testosterone makes me ZEN..... LOL


Jay

that's so funny because swap the 2 letters around and I can say exactly the same thing! If our brains are different than our bodies that makes sense- round pegs fit much better into round holes than square pegs do.

The main problem with these kind of forums is the amount of things people think HRT is doing for them. Sometimes it goes to great mythical proportions on so many subjects. But in reality HRT effects very little for anyone over the age of puberty.

I haven't noticed any difference in my temperament or attitude over the 10 years I've been on HRT and I'm very much the person I was 10 or 20 years ago.