It is a good read and some things to think about.....The differences and commonalities we share as TG people

Like driving on a highway.....I'm going in one direction, someone is going in another

We are both on a journey with a destination in mind

If I can lend a hand to another who may need it I will....It doesn't matter what direction they are going

Much Love - Virginia 

Quote from: Marie731 on January 27, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?

I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?

I can only speak for myself here, but I would jump at it. It would be in my plans for certain. I see it as an important piece of anatomy, from a physical dysphoria reducing perspective. Also, I just want one

That said, more visable and financially attainable things such as HRT and chest reconstruction would take a higher priority. They would have a greater impact on my day to day life and rectify the most physical dysphoria for the least amount of risk and cost.

Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 06:18:40 PM
I'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.

To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?

I'll take a stab at it .

I suspect I don't do much in the way of estrogen normally. I'm not IS... but something is broken somewhere in the hormonal feedback loop.

The tiny amount of E and T blockers in "the pill" was enough that I went INSANE. Literally. Even after I resorted to taking large amounts of "crazy meds" and seeing a therapist, I could not function well enough to hold down a job or study.

"Clouded mind" was an understatement. I felt like I had been given a lobotomy.

My emotions were also completely out of whack. Not only were they much, much stronger - they were also random and completely uncontrollable.

The worst? The depression. An overriding urge that everything was hopeless, and I needed to commit suicide.

As soon as I went off it everything went back to normal. I stopped all other meds without noticing a thing. Also, I got my body hair back

From my experiance, I could easily see how estrogen would cause emotional instability (in turn causing irrational behaviour).

I think in teenagers though, it's more the effect of multiple hormones going crazy when the brain isn't used to it and the whole "nearing independance", "finding their identity", and "peer conformity" factors that make them go nuts.

I think actual women will level out and chill after a while, but those who are not designed to run on E will never feel right.

These are interesting perspectives about running on estrogen.  I found that I am more alert and less clouded.  Also, I seem to be able to remember numbers better than I did.  (I was always good at manipulating them - I just had a poor memory for them.)  But I think these effects are from finally running on the right fuel, not from the estrogen per se.

Effects that I do attribute to estrogen are that I can concentrate on several different things at once and my thinking and conversations are less linear than before.  Also my sexual feelings are far more diffuse than before.

When testosterone hit me at puberty I became confused and struggled for years to clear my thinking.  Your tales of what happened when estrogen hit you sound very similar.  Fortunately, I never took pills to increase my testosterone level.  I think I would have gone crazy.  It was difficult enough to keep myself together with my natural levels. 

From puberty on, I would always yearn for balance – to just achieve some sort of balance.  I could achieve it sporadically, but until I began HRT and transition I always knew it was just temporary.

- Kate

Quote from: SilverFang on January 27, 2010, 06:30:34 PM
That's rather difficult, as I can only really compare my current behavior on ovulation to what I was like pre-menarche. I'll give it a go though.

So lets see, mostly it's just harder to keep track of things than it used to be, I have a harder time keeping track of lists and strings of numbers (maybe this is where "girls are bad at math" came from) A lot less motivated, I just feel sluggish. Have a harder time focusing. Don't see the answers right in front of me. I just think more slowly and the answers seem to be hidden from me. Frustrating, I don't like that at all.

I'm sure guys have a similar hormonal thing that leads to it. Really, excess sex hormones probably just cause the irresponsibility. Too much sex drive/aggression and not enough reasoning to hold it in check. Just a bad combination all around.

Oh and lastly, thanks

I think I understand now. It's something which happens at regular intervals for a period of time and disrupts your intellectual capaciy?

That would be especially frustrating for someone who doesn't feel their body is right in the first place.

Do you think non-TG women enjoy this regular experience?

Does it create any sort of mood change, euphoria, or is it simply a matter of concentration?

We've all heard of cycles for men. I haven't seen any evidence and it certainly isn't my own experience. Though there is, what I always called, The Surge, when something seemed to stilulate, usually a sight, but perhaps some sound or smell. It does disrupt your concentration and can make you feel agressive.

Then again, that was my experience and to be honest, I had a mood problem for most of my adult life, until I reached 40. So perhaps it was that.

Quote from: Marie731 on January 27, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?

I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?

Yes!
Though top surgery would still be something I'd want to do "first". Mostly cause the damned things are such a loud part of my appearance at the moment.

Mindsets.  The fact that one's end goal is being male, and the other female, indicates a whole lot of goals that are oppositional.  I suppose that while you can spend ages dissecting the differences between the two, in the end it's something beautiful.  You've got a guy who's never really been in a guy role, and a chick who's never been in a chick role, but the guy's been in the chick role and the chick has been in the guy role so in the end, they've got an immense amount in common:D

Teknoir and K8

Thank you so much for your responses. I didn't mean to ignore you in #23. I've been trying to digest the information on estrogen on genetic females.

It's interesting that you each have had such different experiences. Though, of course, you both have such different backgrounds and lifestyles.

Teknoir, I read in a much earlier post by you that you don't want children. Would you dscribe yourself as emotional at all?

You seem to come across as matter of fact in many of your posts. But did briefly describe a firery relationship.

K8. You posts seem to portray someone who thinks a lot about other people. Would you say you are emotional?

I ask this because I'm wondering if your very different reactions to estrogen were because of your predispositions.

I apologise if I'm being intrusive.

Spacial,
I am MTF and Teknoir is FTM, so I would expect our take on estrogen to be very different.  It was what I needed, while he probably felt the way I did when testosterone hit me – cursed.

I was raised in a family that showed little emotion.  We loved each other and were warm to each other, but I don't think I ever saw my parents embrace, let alone kiss.  Trying to be a man, I was wrapped very tightly because it was such an effort.  I married a wonderful, emotional Italian woman who found my evident lack of emotion problematic.  I had it; I just couldn't get in touch with it.

When the cage door swung open and I was finally operating on the right fuel, I was at last able to feel and to express those feelings.  It is as if the wrappings came off.

My friends say I am the same as I was but they can see I am far happier.  I was raised to appreciate at a distance, but now I am a toucher and a hugger and I cry sometimes and laugh frequently.  I absolutely love who I have become.

Some of this is from estrogen and some of it is from finally being free to be myself.  I can't separate the two.

*hugs*
Kate

Thank you K8.

I apologise to Tekbnoir, profusely. I read some of his posts from his profile. I was really just trying to get some idea of his outlook. If I had spent more time I would have realised, but with over 400 posts, I concentrated on what caught my eye.

Once again, I am truely sorry.

The descriptions Tekbnoir wrote about his experiences on what he called:  E and T blockers in "the pill" appear to have been quite painful. Some of the past posts I read also seem to recall other painfull events.

K8.

Thank you for your response. I understand and fully agree with your position of not separating the two. Self annalysis seems a bit like taking apart that nice toy you got, only to realise you can't put it back together.

I think I have a pretty good introduction to estrogen in relation to FtM and MtF now. Hopefully, with time, this issue will be raised again.

Once again K8, thank you for taking the time to respond and my deepest apologies to Tekbnoir

I passed an okay amount pre-HRT, without wearing any makeup, with frumpy hair, and androgynous clothes. And a shapeless body, but I'm short.

Now living as a woman everywhere except at work (including school this semester), and having actually tried out makeup... i hate my face without it and want to learn to use it. I feel hideous when I see myself in the mirror and wonder how I could ever pass. Hell, pass a year ago, without hormones or breasts. Some days I see myself and can picture the girl peeking through with her nice round cheeks but most of the time, I don't even see the gorgeous boy who used to be there. Just a disgusting man.


Which is pretty screwed up, I know, considering how when at work, I pass with *everything* against me...

When the face isn't bothering me, I'd like a female shape. But that is mostly my scoliosis screwing with me since it deprives me of having hips, being able to do the lower back bend to show off ass, etc. To me, shape and face are the big things everyone sees.

On a personal level, I'd like to grow more adult female nipples, rather than the nearly pre-hrt size i have right now.

SRS doesn't even really factor in for me right now because I can't see myself ever affording it  before I'm 30 or older and that's a long way away.


Orchi and hysterectomy are NOT nearly the same thing. A friend of mine had her orchi, 4 months into HRT, paid for in cash, and had sex with her boyfriend the same night. Not nearly the same thing.

Autumn,

I am not sure if you comment on an Orchie v. Hysto was directed at me or not, but I did not say they were the same thing.  I was using that as the guys can have a hysto and us girls can have an Orchie.  As all of the operation in my post, each group has something that the other has similarly.

Remember I had an Orchie and I was fine by the next day.  I doubt that any of our brother who have had a hysto could say the same thing, but then again I have not ever know anyone who has had one personally.

Hugs,
Janet

It was, but I apologize, I came from another perspective - since the earlier tone in the thread was comparing what each of us find to be more important, not the direct analogies... since those are pretty obvious 

I'd definitely compare BA to FFS. Although, not every MTF is going to have FFS, and almost every FTM will have BA if they can afford it, considering which single procedure can be the most important, I'd link those two.

Sorry I'm late... I decided to sleep for the first time in 3 days  .

Quote from: spacial on January 28, 2010, 10:55:33 AM
Teknoir, I read in a much earlier post by you that you don't want children. Would you dscribe yourself as emotional at all?

You seem to come across as matter of fact in many of your posts. But did briefly describe a firery relationship.

Matter of fact? Wow... from my point of view, these forums are one of the places I let my guard down and be silly! Interesting!

I consider myself (as I am now) "average", but the people around me say I'm cold and unemotional. I have no idea how people keep getting that impression - any time I spend around people is almost always spent joking around and having fun.

My family are, by my standards, very touchy-feely. They're always hugging and feeling things. I don't repress emotions, I just don't feel the same things they do. If I feel something, it's never to the same extent.

I don't like physical contact (a pet hate of mine are people that grab your arm or shoulder in a conversation), and I don't cry at things (like driving away from a family gathering, or murdered children on the news). My family think I'm broken 

Ah, yes.... that. It wasn't really firery as such - there was never any screaming or shouting. I'd more have called it watery, like "drip drip drip on your forehead and a set of restraints" .

Actaully, I just got off the phone with them. Each conversation is like a half hour mind game (and I am not the only person to have said it).

Even though I can see EXACTLY what they are doing and how they are doing it, theres just something in their phrasing and inflections that just gets my back up every time. So I suppose that's the exception to my unemotional status.

Quote
I apologise to Tekbnoir, profusely. I read some of his posts from his profile. I was really just trying to get some idea of his outlook. If I had spent more time I would have realised, but with over 400 posts, I concentrated on what caught my eye.

Once again, I am truely sorry.

The descriptions Tekbnoir wrote about his experiences on what he called:  E and T blockers in "the pill" appear to have been quite painful. Some of the past posts I read also seem to recall other painfull events.

Oh... I though you were already aware I am FTM. You were asking another FTM a few posts back about their experiances with Estrogen - that's why I weighed in (though my experiance is mostly synthetic). It's all good .

Most FTMs don't talk about having tried female hormones, and they usually don't violently react to them if they did. Probably 'cause most FTMs fall within normal XX hormonal parameters before HRT.

From what I've read, "hormonally normal XX" FTMs get a milder version of what I went though in the same situation.

I have no idea what T is going to do to my emotional state, but I don't expect the degree of change other guys have gotten.

Thank you for being so understanding Teknoir.

It's good that you can let your guard down. I agree with you, this is a place to do just that.

My curiosity about how emotional you see yourself was based upon my mistaken assumptiion that you were born male.

Now that I realise you are FtM, your posts are clearer.

Inevitable we look at th world through our own eyes. I'm a total wimp. I cry at the Simpsons!!!!

Once, a number of years ago, I was with a group of men and cried at something. One called me a Girl's Blowse. I replied, I wish. This was taken as being really funny, but they laughed for different reasons for me!!

In an earlier post, in this thread, described how estrogen had affected him, especially during ovulation. I was curious to know how estrogen affected MtF people.

K8 kindly described how she felt. I was looking for another perspective from another MtF person. As I was under the mistaken assumption that you were MtF, and you semed to have such a different outlook on life, I wanted to get your input.

I now realise that you are FtM.

If it isn't too intrusive, can you describe how estrogen makes you feel?

Quote from: spacial on January 29, 2010, 07:00:01 AM
If it isn't too intrusive, can you describe how estrogen makes you feel?

That horrible backstory is what introducting estrogen to my system made me feel like.

Due to a nice little hormonal glitch, I don't have much in the way of estrogen naturally - so I got to see a very marked difference when it was introduced.

And I also got to stop it, and have all the mental stuff change back (which was nice as a confirmation that I am neither insane, nor doomed!).

Quote from: Teknoir on January 29, 2010, 05:28:25 AM
Matter of fact? Wow... from my point of view, these forums are one of the places I let my guard down and be silly! Interesting!

Don't you love it?  I would think I was really swinging out and having a good time and then someone would tell me I'm always so serious.   Oh well.

I know what you mean about family, even though mine is very different.  I just saw my brother for the first time since starting transition.  The meeting was very cordial – warm but with little depth.  I wanted more than cordial but will settle for it.  I get the impression he thinks me becoming a full-time woman is on par with me getting a tattoo or joining the military - just another inexplicable decision. 

Often, family can be tough because you want more connection than the others are able to offer you.  (I mean, they're your family, durn it! )

Hang in there, guy.

- Kate

Teknoir

Thank you. I understand now.

In my experience in the "Gender Community", the vast majority of M/F's I have met will never have momey for SRS or FFS and try to cope without it. They are lucky if they even have any health insurance for non-gender related medical needs. Without generalizing too much, it would be great if HRT worked as quickly on M/F's as F/M's. Also, I can probably count on one hand the number of M/F's I have met who really have achieved a authentic sounding female voice. I don't know anybody that speaks like Andrea James or Calpurnia Adams. The sad thing in so many cases is that this is a class issue as well as a gender issue. Not all of us can see Russia from our house.

Becoming  a socially adept woman when starting in middle-age or later can be so hard it's a wonder more people don't give up and be week-end CD's. You have voice, skin, hair, posture, behavior and walk issues as well as unlearning a life time of passing for male and all the irritating secondary body characteristics that can only be fixed by expensive surgery. In a typical support group in my area, I'd say 70% will always stay CD because it's just too hard and expensive to move on. The heartbreak is massive.

Quote from: xsocialworker on January 29, 2010, 11:43:09 AM
It would be great if HRT worked as quickly on M/F's as F/M's. Also, I can probably count on one hand the number of M/F's I have met who really have achieved a authentic sounding female voice. I don't know anybody that speaks like Andrea James or Calpurnia Adams. The sad thing in so many cases is that this is a class issue as well as a gender issue.

I have the voice but not the right fat distribution. My voice didn't break so it's a plus for me but your right about the limitations of HRT on Male to females.

Money, as mentioned is a huge factor, because so much more is available - SRS, FFS that puts the onus on people to go all the way in order to be authentic.

Physically, the HRT does give the guys facial hair, and that alone will get them to 'pass' a lot of the times, plus there are more short guys then there are tall women, so that makes the girls stand out more.

Socially, I think that's the place were it's reversed.  I think women are much more accepting in taking in the girls, then men are in taking in the guys.  And it's not that the men are less tolerant - perhaps they are - it's more that there is a code of behavior that is pretty hard to work your way around.  Just showing up in guy mode does not make you 'one of the guys' by default.  That group deal, and that order has been carefully worked on since grade school for the most part and it's pretty solid.