When I was a little girl I remember sitting in church listening to the preacher preach about Jesus coming into the world to save man and to bring him back to God.
  Since He is the Son of God and holy He is the only one that could make that sort of sacrifice for our sins. That gave Him all authority and thereby He could have mercy on those who love Him. They would be saved by His grace.
  That was in the days prior to all of the preaching about worldly gain that is on TV and in many churches today. They didn't preach about this world.
  The sermons I heard back then all reflected Jesus. Who He is and what He did to fulfill all that was written about Him in the laws and prophets. Kind of like how the moon reflects the light of the sun at night the lesser light of the Son came into a darkened world to reflect the greater light of God.
  Like Noah; He made us an ark, or church in which we could escape the wrath of God and the water, or word and Spirit of God would cause us to be carried above the flood of ungodly waters, or teachings of man that loves this world and it's riches.
  These are the sermons I no longer hear anymore so I don't blame most people for no longer believing and it's no wonder that the word of God seems like a bunch of contradictions when the spiritual things are no longer taught. Buying and selling the word of God will not save anyone.
  I hope that I have not offended anyone but that is what I have noticed over the years. There is a difference in preaching Christ and this world and telling people they are going to hell is not preaching Christ. Neither is telling people that Jesus died to make them rich in this world. Those riches are the spiritual things in the word of God where we see the glory of God in the scriptures declaring His Son.
  May God bless you.
  Tiffany

 I am a Christian, in fact i am a christian missionary working in a Islamic country that has been torn by war.  No I am not here to convert everyone to my way of thinking (otherwise they may all have to be TS) LOL  I am here to share God's love to everyone who needs it and in whatever way I can.  I believe their is a God and I believe the religious community abuses  God's word and I cried at that trailer of the Jesus camp and I believe God cried as well.  Yes, because I am TS I have to leave my area of work because the majority of those I work with will not accept me and may even harm me or my wife--BUT that doesn't mean they are right and God still loves them and so must I.
   I believe there are many ways to God as God is greater than anything we can makeup  so it is not for me to judge your way but to choose my way and treat all with the love of GOD.


Sorry for spouting but that clip hurt!!

mary

Christians have hurt me. Christians disowned me. Christians made me hate myself before I could think for myself. Christians told me "god" doesn't make mistakes. Christians told me if I was supposed to be a woman the Christian "god" would have made me that way.

Christians indoctrinated me with 12 years of secular schooling. Christians put propaganda in my head that made me hate gays, Catholics, blacks and Muslims by 6th grade. Christians tried to make me think what was moral in life was what other Christians told me.

Christians are turning the country I love into a theocracy. Christians are willingfully ignorant of the 600,000 people they have murdered by proxy in Iraq. Christians talk about Muslim life as if it were worthless. Christians can't talk about the war they support rationally.

Christians are the most judgmental and selectively loving group of hypocrites on the planet, in my opinion.

Just as some have the belief that Christian is awesome and altruistic, I have the belief it is evil, destructive and something that must be fought tooth and nail until it can behave more humbly. 

I will not argue that my own experience with Christians has probably been far more negative than most. But, if I were still a Christian – I could not ignore the mind "god" gave me to examine the Christian faith empirically. I could not ignore my common sense that tells me what is good and what is evil and excuse the atrocities I see them commit.

Bri

  It is true that Christians have hurt many. It seems that many have not only no longer fear God but also have forgotten that they too are saved by his grace and are commanded to walk humbly with God.
  I have been hurt by them and cast out as a heretic. In some churches I have been openly ridiculed and used as an "example."
  The thing I find fascinating about being a Christian is that the Lord would die for my sins and save me by his grace. Not because I have money or am better than others but because he loves me. I guess if everyone loved me it would be easy to love. That commandment to love those who hate and persecute you sure is hard when it is supposed to be one of his people. Kind of like his own crucifying him.
  Bri; I feel so sorry that Christians have hurt you hon. It's not good when those who are supposed to be the Lord's people use his word for hate and belittlement rather than to give hope to someone like us that the word condemns. After all, the word, or law makes all guilty and they have forgotten that they too are saved by the same grace that we are.
  May God bless you hon.
  Tiffany

Tiffany2,

Respectfully, I want to strongly ask you to not give me "god's" blessing. What I want is "it's" folowers to allow me a life without being subjected to beliefs I don't subscribe to.

Bri

Brianna;
  I am so sorry if I aggravated you. That was not my intention. I do hope that you will forgive me.
  I hope that you will not lump us all together though as I too have been the subjet of ridicule and strongly oppose many things preached and taught in churches today. I am one that does try to use the word to give hope rather than to condemn. Even though sometimes my wording doesn't come out right.
  Once again; please forgive me.
  Tiffany

Quote from: Brianna on October 16, 2006, 11:55:23 AMChristians told me if I was supposed to be a woman the Christian "god" would have made me that way.

One told me exactly the same thing, and that person is now no longer on speaking terms with me. It hurts to hear it said, but in a very real sense you and I are already that way, just correcting a physical mismatch.

When trying to converse with this person, I felt like letting loose all the feelings of hatred for the nastier things that people have done over the centuries. I felt like condemning all religion as a danger to humanity.

Yet on the other hand, on some of the boards I post to there are religious people who know about my change and are okay with it. One is even a self proclaimed gay redneck. They belong to churches that don't discourage people to think for themselves, and they're wonderful people.

So in my own experience I've seen a big divide between the closed minded bible thumpers and the kind hearted folks who believe because they truly believe. And isn't that what a certain spiritual leader really taught?

(If it makes any difference, I consider myself an atheist but have an agnostic view on the possibility of an afterlife.)

              Grouping millions of people together with a label and hatred is terribly intolerant and ignorant in my opinion.





beth

Quote from: Brianna on October 16, 2006, 02:59:23 PM
Tiffany2,

Respectfully, I want to strongly ask you to not give me "god's" blessing. What I want is "it's" folowers to allow me a life without being subjected to beliefs I don't subscribe to.

Bri

Bri, only you can allow yourself to live that life.  You can succumb to their opression or you can walk away and be yourself.  It's up to you.  Many of us have allowed ourselves to be prisoners of a myopic, intolerant and uneducated society, myself included.  When you gain the strength and courage to stand alone you will find these people have no control over your life.  I used to think the world had to change in order for me to be happy.  I now know I had to change in order to live in peace.  The only life we can control is our own.  The life you live is in your hands.  Focus on what makes you happy and follow your heart.

My so called best friend:  "Your a man, God made you a man...."
Me: "No, god made me what I am and your going to have to learn to deal with it"
Him: "Dude, your a man, you were born a man and will allways be a man in his eyes. He is perfect and never makes mistakes"
Me: "Really, if hes so all seeing and perfect, why did he make me this way, If hes perfect then Im not a mistake of nature andthere fore I am what I am and your going to have to deal with it."
Him: "You are a man and its only those (Bleeped) hormones your takeing that are makeing you think this way... youve had allot of tramatic experiances... you need help... you are a man"  *Tries handing me a bible*
Me: *Sighs* "I have my own thankyou, and Ive read it, have you? It dosnt say anything about people like me.... if your such a good christian love your nahbor and your friends, stop trying to force your ill directed oppinions on me.... I dont force mine on you"


Hes nolonger my socalled best friend, and looseing him is something I will regret for a long time, but I cant be around him anymore til he grows up.....  Hes a Roman Catholic to the core, even been to rome on multiple ocasions on pilgramage to see the pope.... *sighs*

If God exists, he does not make mistakes.  He allows them to happen. And for those who doubt this, help them recall the innumerable people who are born with visible birth defects.  We also know about birth defects in the brain.  Whether we are the result of a brain defect or not is up for grabs. I know I was born with a brain that is different than most.  I prefer to not think of it as a defect but a wondrous thing that has given me so much to learn and see.  Who can honestly say they have lived life from both sides?  I can. There have been some tough times. But I've had a life that has been rich and full.

There are many very faithful and religious people who have reached out and accepted me in this life.  To them I relish their thoughtfulness, faith, and charity.  For the others....their's isn't my problem to solve.  All I can do is to try and protect the lowly, the misunderstood, and down trodden.   

For religious organizations that yield the power of their might in unrighteousness.... look out! Their god is not a happy one.

Cindi

I am a baptised Mormon, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

While it is true that there are many good folks out there who believe in some form of god, deity, sun, moon, or what ever, I'm afraid that I can't be counted amongst them.  I am not a religious person and I do not subscribe to any.  Personally I believe that 'religions' were invented/conjured up to explain those things that man did not understand and they developed from there, as the only evidence out there is based on the word of men/women.

I firmly believe that you do not need to be religious to live your life in a way that would be considered 'good'.  I treat everyone equally with respect and while I don't love everyone and embrace them, I am friendly with them no matter how distasteful they themselves may be to the extent that my own moral convictions allow.  To preach that you must be religious to live a good life is preposterous and somewhat typical.

While I understand that there are many who need to have a reason as to why they exist, an explanation as to why they are on this earth and the comfort knowing that there is something to look forward to after their death, I do not, and I am quite happy with my lot in life and the fact that I too will die.  I simply hope that I will be fondly remembered by those who knew me.

I can see where Bri is so hash on religions as her personal experience with them has lets say been less than favourable and I applaud her for having the courage to speak out against those who have done her wrong, whether they were religious or not.  Too often we see religious wrong doing covered up, explained away as an anomaly, however it persists.  The disgusting events that have taken place in several religious faiths where children have been molested and sexually assaulted is repulsive and yet their crimes were covered up, priests were ferreted away until they were uncovered for all the world to see.  I can imagine what would have happened had they not been revealed.

Yes these are exceptions and yes there are many other exceptions but these people preached the word of god without a fear of retribution as those who covered their crimes up.  I see no reason for the need for a god, but I can understand the need for those to believe that their is something out there that is guiding their life and the comfort they feel knowing that there that their god provides a reason for everything that happens.

For me religions are more trouble than they are worth, but then that's just my own opinion.

Steph

It is not against the Christian doctrine to ask questions. I went through 3 years of hating God, rallying against Christianity and exploring other options, including Buddhism and Wicca. I often wonder why I was made the way I was, why I have to go through the torture of losing the people I love just to be myself, why I have to deal with so much hate and ignorance from the world. God still loves me. That I know intuitively. And I feel that there is a reason for everything, even if we don't understand it right now. Bri, I am so sorry that people proclaiming to be Christians hurt you so deeply. I have had the same experience with many people, but I tend to judge the person for the person, not for what he/she believes. Just because someone proclaims him/herself as a Christian, it does not mean he/she embodies the tenets set forth by the Christian faith. I am a Christian myself, but I make mistakes, too.

Keep questioning, babe. It is questioning that keeps us healthy and alive.

Rafe

Wow... what a thread!  I have no real facts to add to this debate and am not qualified to discuss  philosophy, physics, biology or theology on the level of many posts before mine.  All that I would like to add is an observation or two and possibly an opinion.

This forum was created to support a group of people who arguably comprise only a single digit percentage of the total population.  The Wiki page identifies six separate categories of the TG community with various sub-sets under those.  We are open minded enough to recognize that there is a multitude of individual reasons/motivations that define us as Transgender.

I do not see the same willingness to acknowledge or accept that there could be an exponentially greater number of sub-sets used to define those that likely comprise more than 50% of the population.  I am speaking of those who profess some sort of belief / adherence to one religion or another, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Five Pecks of Rice Taoism, etc.  What I have read is a tendency to group everyone under one broad brush and then assign a very narrow definition to all.  In other words, our open mindedness seems to be entirely absent in this regard.

I find this to be true mostly in the strongest anti-Christian posts but that is probably due to the fact that I am one myself.  My overall experience with Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) is completely opposite of those described above.  I do not have enough experience with Hindus, Muslims, etc. to be able to effectively counter anything said but my limited interactions have also been good  (I've never met anyone who practices Five Pecks of Rice Taoism).  Obviously, I'm speaking exclusively in terms of religion for all groups identified.

My only point is that I don't believe it is accurate or fair to condemn Christians in the manner expressed.  The negatives ascribed to them/us would be better placed against one or more specific denominations although that is likely still too large a group to be narrowly defined.  I do agree with what has been attributed to the "human" side of religion.  We tend to screw up over time anything we get our hands on due to greed for power, money, influence, etc.

My opinion only.  I don't have a dog in this hunt as it matters not to me what you feel as long as you do not insist that I believe the same or that I am somehow inferior if I don't.

Maybe I'll go check out the politics thread now.

Satin

  I personally believe that the word of God is a two-way street kind of like how it is referred to a double-edged sword and the blessings and cursings of the law given by Moses.
  The Bible says that which makes manifest is light. Without light we would not know what darkness is. Without darkness we would not know what light is.
  Since the word of God reveals the thoughts and intents of the heart, I believe it is the heart of man that is revealed to God by how we live and think.
  Greed is made known when the poor are ignored by the wealthy that have more than enough to help them.
  The lust for power is made known when someone passes up a job that is higher paying in a position of subjection to have one that is lower paying in authority.
  A judgemental attitude is made known by a person having a little knowledge in the word of God and using it to condemn rather than edify and exhort. It is also when they forget they are not perfect either and judge others.
  Self righteousness is made known when there are those in the world that have infirmities or differences that show openly being judged by those who sins are hidden.
  Without us the thoughts and intents of hateful, judgemental, self-righteous  hearts may not be known in some instances.
  I am a Christian but I personally believe that too many forget that the law of God made all guilty and that the same grace that saves Jews saved Gentiles as Paul wrote. The same grace that forgives a catfish sandwich can forgive a transgender.
  On the other hand, or end of the balance, transgenders can point out a judgemental heart in a straight person just as an overlooked poor person an point out an uncaring heart in a wealthy person.
  I guess some just strain at a gnat and swallow a camel trying to justify themselves and feeling their lust of power fulfilled as they harp on the outer appearance of some of us.
  But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
  Tiffany

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 17, 2006, 04:46:53 PM
 ....
  But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
  Tiffany

But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?

Steph

Quote from: Steph on October 17, 2006, 05:10:29 PM

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 17, 2006, 04:46:53 PM
 ....
  But; I believe that God will sort it all out in the end.
  Tiffany

But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?

Steph

Speaking only from my personal perspective, and not for Tiffany, God will sort it out for everyone in the end.  I only hope it's a little while longer before I know for sure.

Satin

Quote from: beth on October 16, 2006, 06:14:37 PM
              Grouping millions of people together with a label and hatred is terribly intolerant and ignorant in my opinion.





beth

              I need to apologize for venting such strong remarks the other day. I am not a Christian and I do agree with most of the negative things written here about (some) of them, it is just that it wasn't qualified with words like "Many Christians", "Some Christians" or "All the Christians I have known" but was a blanket statement covering all Christians. The statements are false when related to all Christians. There are Christians members of our forum. One of our most outspoken voices against the Bush administration is a Christian. Many Christians do not support Bush or the war. Many Christians voted for Kerry and Gore. Kerry and Gore are Christians. Blanket condemnation of all Christians is just as bad as the way many condemn all transsexuals.

              My family is Christian. When I came out with who I was they cried because they understood how hard it was for me and said I should have come out much sooner. I received not only acceptance but offers of help toward my transition. I am welcome at all my childrens homes and welcome to enjoy my grandchildren. I haven't been told God does not make mistakes. I have been told God made me transsexual for a reason. I myself do not know how things work but do know there is a god, I have felt her presence and seen her power.

beth

Quote from: Steph on October 17, 2006, 05:10:29 PM
But what about those who do not believe that there is a god?
Steph

That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise.

bri

Quote from: Brianna on October 17, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise.

bri

Bri, good work!  Succinctly put.  I love it.

Steph, I didn't know that you were once a Mormon.  I was too. 

Some day, God and I are going to sit down together and have a good laugh.

Cindi