Who wrote the Bible?  Who printed it?  Who proofread it?  Who made the 'necessary' corrections?

Did God create gender as our society knows it?  Does God only see physical male and physical female with nothing in between?  Or does She see us for who we are inside, regardless of gender?

We are told not to ask questions, just believe.  "That's why they call it faith."  Is that blind faith?

Humans are like books.  There's the cover and the contents.  No book ever became a great seller just because of a good cover.  It's the contents that counts.  And no book that was ever created had a cover that completely misrepresented the contents.  Why should we be any different? 

When I was born there was a mixup and I was given the wrong cover.  Society did that because they didn't see inside and realize who I really am.  God knew all along.  Society told me I had to make the contents match the cover, not God.  It wasn't until I did some deep soul searching (something religious fanatics tell us to do) that I realized society was all wrong.

We are told things at such an early age that we don't even have the ability to question it.  When we finally reach that age where we have the strength and courage to be able to stand alone and be ourselves, we get resistance from everyone we know because it upsets their lives and their beliefs. 

These same people don't want to see we have valiantly struggled with something they probably couldn't handle for a single day.  They don't see we have done this for them.  And many never will. 

"God don't make mistakes."  Humans do all the time.  So who's guidance do we follow?

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
Who wrote the Bible?  Who printed it?  Who proofread it?  Who made the 'necessary' corrections?

If you actually want some answers to those questions, there's a book for laypeople called "The Journey from Texts to Translations" by Paul Wegner.  It's kind of thick but there are lots of pictures.    

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
  We are told not to ask questions, just believe.

That's the kind of false idea that religious people who are afraid of the answers they'll get, or anti-religious people, espouse. That's not what the bible says.  The most succint example, 1 Thess 5:21 - "Test everything".  (I could go on with verse references, but there may be no point.) You'll notice the book I referenced above was written by a Christian.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 17, 2006, 07:18:48 PM
"That's why they call it faith."  Is that blind faith?

The kind of faith talked about in the bible isn't "believe even though you have no reason to."  Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."  There is a distinction.  It's not saying "have faith because you really really want it to be true, even though you can't see God and have no reason to believe in him."  Christian faith is analogous to the faith you have in someone once you know something about the person.  For example, I believe that my best friend would talk to me at 5am if I really needed it, even if he's dead tired, even if he didn't sleep the night before, and even if he has something important to do the next day.   Can I prove this? no.  Has it ever happened? um.. not that I can remember. But I have faith that he would do it based on what I know of him.  I have faith in God because of what I've already seen him do in my life.  And each time he works in an undeniable way, my faith increases.  I don't say this to convince anyone of the existence of God, because you can't transfer your own experiences to someone else no matter how much you describe them, but only to say that the bible doesn't promote faith or belief without reason.  The "famous" apologetics verse, 1 Peter 3:15, even says "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." (it's just too bad many of us forget that last part sometimes.    I hope you know that I do respect you regardless of what you believe about God.)

Joseph

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 17, 2006, 06:21:04 PM

Quote from: Brianna on October 17, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
That's where we're lucky. We have Christians to pity us, tell us we're going to hell, and to pray for us. We'd be screwed otherwise.

bri

...

Steph, I didn't know that you were once a Mormon.  I was too. 

...

Cindi

Yep I'm just full of surprises

Steph

I'd like to ask some semi-rhetorical questions, if I may--

It seems to me that those people, whether they be 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or whatever, are so vehemently anti-whatever (in this case, anti-transsexual,) that it appears to me they are trying valiantly to defend -- somebody or some thing -- from a perceived attack.

What or who are they defending?

If it's God (or god, or g_d,) they're defending, does an omnipotent being really need us mere mortals to defend "Him"?

So, why are they defending?  And what actually are they defending against?

Why does a paranoid invent enemies?  How important would a paranoid be if he or she had NO enemies, no one out to get them?

What if the people who defend were actually projecting their own doubts about the truth of their faith onto others, and then 'defending' their faith against such things that did cast doubt on to the 'truth' of their elaborate mythology?

Why did the Roman Catholic Church convict Galilleo of heresy?  Because they were right about the earth being the center of the universe?   Or was it because the new Copernican paradigm, while better explaining such phenomena as retrograde motion of planets, called into question the 'truth' of the Christian/Catholic faith 300 years ago?  (The Catholic church pardoned Galilleo somewhere around 1970, btw...)

Why are they defending their faith, rather than seeking the truth?

Karen

I defend nothing. I only strive to discover what truths there are out there for me. I hope everyone else will do the same for him/herself.

Must repeat my favorite phrase: A chaque son gout (to each his own).

Rafe [the truth-seeker]

I read this thread and I want to get angry.  I want to say "Stop arguing from positions of ignorance!"  "Stop parading opinions as facts"! "Stop making sweeping statements" - even after you must have just finished reading a post that mentions this very point.   Stop judging the many by the bad examples.

I want to do all this, I should be angry, yet I feel my heart to be very heavy, - because I know (as far as can ever be determined here) you who make these posts - and I KNOW that you are not like that, I have read your other posts.

So if Christians, Muslims, "organised religion"  is so bad - then who is good?   Athiests?  like Lenin or Stalin maybe.  Wicca -  like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff.   Druids & the like?  God help us they were evil - and that was not just Roman propaganda.  The sad part is that you are describing humanity with all its faults.

Truely this is a negative thread, born out of Brianna's hurt and the hurt of others here who suffered by intolerant people who were obviously NOT what they labled themselves.   Christians = followers of Christ's teachings, love tolerance compassion

Rana -   
I am sorry if I rant, there are good posts here but the mood is depressing

Quote from: Rana on October 18, 2006, 08:03:13 AM
I read this thread and I want to get angry.  I want to say "Stop arguing from positions of ignorance!"  "Stop parading opinions as facts"! "Stop making sweeping statements" - even after you must have just finished reading a post that mentions this very point.   Stop judging the many by the bad examples.

I want to do all this, I should be angry, yet I feel my heart to be very heavy, - because I know (as far as can ever be determined here) you who make these posts - and I KNOW that you are not like that, I have read your other posts.

So if Christians, Muslims, "organised religion"  is so bad - then who is good?   Athiests?  like Lenin or Stalin maybe.  Wicca -  like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff.   Druids & the like?  God help us they were evil - and that was not just Roman propaganda.  The sad part is that you are describing humanity with all its faults.

Truely this is a negative thread, born out of Brianna's hurt and the hurt of others here who suffered by intolerant people who were obviously NOT what they labled themselves.   Christians = followers of Christ's teachings, love tolerance compassion

Rana -   
I am sorry if I rant, there are good posts here but the mood is depressing

I can understand your feelings Rana, but I can also sympathize with those who consider themselves as apart of the GLBT movement as their very existence is condemned by many organised religions, the Catholic church comes to mind and the recent edicts from the Vatican.  Having said that there are organised religions that embrace the GLBT community such as the United Church of Canada, there are more of each of course.  (So is this two different Gods one for the Catholics and one the Unitarians?).  I know, I'm being facetious.

I guess folks just get tired of those who feel their way of life is  better than ours, and tell us how to live our lives, that we are to be shunned, and need to change in order to get to heaven etc...  and I fear that will never change.  One thing that does irk me to no end, and this is strictly a personal beef, is those who feel the need to wish me "God bless", or "I'll pray for you", or "You are in my prayers" and similar religious sentiments as it assumes that I'm religious and believe in God.  I know that they mean well but a simple "take care", or "thinking of you" or "you are in my thoughts" to me are more sincere and personal.  ( But then I think that I've even slipped and told someone they are in my paryers )

Am I being narrow minded, am I painting everyone with the same brush, I don't think so.  I understand that there are many good people out there, some are religious, some are not, I just need to know that they are good

Steph

Quote from: Steph on October 18, 2006, 09:31:07 AM
I guess folks just get tired of those who feel their way of life is  better than ours, and tell us how to live our lives, that we are to be shunned, and need to change in order to get to heaven etc...  and I fear that will never change.

I really agree with that.

I am an adult with my own right to my own opinions and ideas. This includes the right to have my own personal impression of organized religion - favorable or unfavorable. If you are certain of your own beliefs, conflicting opinions should be exogenous to your faith.

I think part of what I find frustrating about the intellectual veracity of religion is the psychological defensiveness that often accompanies it. Opinions are minimized (Brianna feel this way because she was hurt), and a false-concensous effect is prevalent (Everyone knows Christianity is just an altruistic religion.)

I can certainly accept that not everyone shares my agnosticism and distrust of organized religion. Surely the Christians here can accept the same that not everyone shares their beliefs?

Bri, respectfully

PS - Whatever my opinion, I have never met a gay or a transsexual person of faith on earth that I wasn't impressed with the sincerity of their views. Mazel Tov.

The topic states two things:
1. God does not Exist
2. Religion is only used to oppress people.

I don't know if God exists or not, personally, I think he does, but it's not something I claim to know.
I agree that religion can oppress people by oppressing free thought through the process of early indoctorination, guilt, and peer pressure.  I do not agree that religion's only use is to oppress people.

Jessica

Quote from: Rana on October 18, 2006, 08:03:13 AMWicca -  like maybe curses & hexes & Alistair Crowley type stuff.

Goodness gracious, poor Aleister continues to get a bad rap even today. In his time he was loathed by the churches (which were very conservative by today's standards) because he did drugs, practiced lots of sex acts, and played around with symbols. I suspect he did it just to bother the powers that be (or is that the powers that were?).

  I hope that this doesn't appear too stupid a question but it is something I have wondered since seeing both Christians, those who were hurt by churches, and non Christians here.
  Would it be possible to have a forum for any ministers on this site to post a word of exhortation from the scriptures that is not swayed by doctrines, denominations or common teachings that appear judgemental? Things that glorify the Lord without going into areas that hurt others?
  It would give any lurking ministers the opportunity to join and maybe share something. And who knows; maybe it would ease some of the hard feelings towards Christianity that have been brought on and fueled by the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that have forgotten that the same grace that covers sweating in church and their clothing of diver's materials covers other areas as well and gives them no room to judge.
  Just an idea. I hope it's not too foolish.
  Tiffany

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 19, 2006, 12:46:42 PM
  I hope that this doesn't appear too stupid a question but it is something I have wondered since seeing both Christians, those who were hurt by churches, and non Christians here.
  Would it be possible to have a forum for any ministers on this site to post a word of exhortation from the scriptures that is not swayed by doctrines, denominations or common teachings that appear judgemental? Things that glorify the Lord without going into areas that hurt others?
  It would give any lurking ministers the opportunity to join and maybe share something. And who knows; maybe it would ease some of the hard feelings towards Christianity that have been brought on and fueled by the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing that have forgotten that the same grace that covers sweating in church and their clothing of diver's materials covers other areas as well and gives them no room to judge.
  Just an idea. I hope it's not too foolish.
  Tiffany

There is no such thing as a stupid question Tiffany, only stupid answers.  As for a forum where ministers can congregate and post words of exhortation, well that's not quite what Susan's is all about.  We have the spirituality forum where these issues can be discussed, openly, and without fear of retribution.  All ministers are always free to join Susan's whether they are lurking or not.  They should have nothing to fear as everyone is welcome as long as they abide by the terms of service and keep in mind that this is a support site for the T community, and not a place to preach or try and convert.

Steph

I've been following this thread after only posting my thoughts once and its awesome and i mean that in a good way.  I learned to take a few things less or non-personal in life religion-politics mostly what a cliche` though huh? heh....
But regardless of how strong or passionate the posts and messages I judge no one for their views or findingshere...in life I have too much judging to do for myself!  But neat in a way that people (us) are all expressing so many different opinons and views. 
I wonder are the teachings and the bible like a recipe where everytime you make it (or when someone reads it) you find its ever so different or in the case of reading the bible that people interpret it all a little differently as well.?  [/u]
I duuno.. My neighbors building a garage and him and his dad are out here on the street in a heated debate i wanna spy and see what they are arguing about! hehe!

Steph;

  Thank you so much for your understanding answer. I do worry about offending people and appearing foolish. Maybe I shouldn't be so self-conscience, but I can't help it. This site is in many ways like a family as I read articles and see so much of my life told by others.

  I too have been hurt by Christians both in references to being transgender as well as doctrinal views. Some of it I brought on in zeal and my own foolishness but some was uncalled for.

  My inquiry wasn't to break any rules or to convert anyone. I just wish that some could use the word of God in a way to give hope where others have used it to judge and destroy. I guess in a sense like a spiritual form of support that would not try to convert, hurt nor sway anyone.

  If I get bolder I may start a blog for that. Not here of course. I don't want to break any rules. Maybe on one of the blog sites. The site I have now I am too shy to share. But then again; if I was bolder I would probably come out. And who knows; maybe down the road I will.

  Anyway; thank you so much. It means a so much to me for all of you to be so kind and understanding and I wouldn't want to anger or hurt anyone for any reason.

  You all are so terriffic and I do love this site so.

  Tiffany

Tiffany2,

I strongly as I wish you would show more understanding that many don't find comfort in your views, I really respect what you are saying in this last post.

I think being a transsexual is among the most developmentally damaging journeys that exists in the human experience. I think we're all just in a state of triage, trying frantically to save ourselves. If you find comfort with that thought process, Mazel Tov. I certianly wouldn't begrudge you anything that helps lessen the developmental damage from the dysphoria we collectively fight.

And besides, the world is undoubtedly better off with transsexuals that can communicate with those chosing to live in christian collective thought - especially with terms of language they respect and understand.

Bri, who is happy when any TS finds their way.

A response to "I wonder are the teachings and the bible like a recipe where every time you make it (or when someone reads it) you find its ever so different or in the case of reading the bible that people interpret it all a little differently as well.?" by Ricki

I just want to say how much I appreciate this question or insight in regarding the teachings of Jesus (or any other) and the bible. In the paragraphs that follow I would like to offer my thoughts on this insight.

Earlier in the thread there was a comment made about the story of the elephant and the blind man. I do not want to re-tell the story but the gist is that each one touched a different part of the elephant and they all got a different understanding of what an elephant was. One saw it from its tail, another it's leg and another trunk. The argument that follows is that each one just saw an aspect of the elephant and described it different and it was still and elephant. Therefore the same is for God. Man simply sees different aspects of God/G_D/supernatural creature/ or anything else.

Because man sees God in different way does not mean all are correct. The fact of the story is that the elephant was an elephant in its fullness. Because man has different views of God does not make all views of God correct. I want to take this also to the interpretation of the scriptures and teachings of Christ. Some people see that God wants his people to be rich, or that God hates ->-bleeped-<-s, etc... These are simply wrong understandings of scripture. People may get different understandings of scripture and rightfully so, due to different perspectives, but that does not make them all right. It becomes the goal of man to use reason to decide what is true and what is not. This must be done for scripture and God.

One way to understand what is true is to use reason when studying the scripture. As said in Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD. The Bible invites you to study and challenge what it has to say. This is not to be done through mere opinions rather through proper study so that we may come as close as possible to understanding the truth. Please understand that the bible does require faith yet at the same time we are invited to use reason to understand it.

I apologize for the length of the response. I felt it was important to discuss the comment made by Ricki. I would like thank you for offering this insight to the continual conversation of the thread.
   JamesBrine

I am God and I do not exist.

                    >

Cool!
Response back to JamesBrine:  very insightful.  I honestly do not study the bible as much as i did when in bible school and church, but i apprerciate anyone's insights.  I have a ownderful bible i got from my church i think when i graduated high school so wow its 21 years old maybe 22 years old?  Interesting story I'll keep it simple when attempting suicide years back it was bloody and messy, I used a handgun and had the bible clutched in my lap if i rememebr right or it was by my thigh i was kneeling my last thoughts were that God would not judge me too harshly and send me to hell for what i was about to do.. anyway i survived somehow survived that awful nightmare, there was blood everywhere I was careful to lay a large sleeping bag out knowing there would be blood and my brother told me the mess that they had to cleanup was awefull I literally had all my blood excet a pint all over the place, the bible was in the middle of this mess and there's not a drop of my blood on it?
How werid is that!  i have the same bible it comforts me and i do not even have to read it for it to comfort me!  I honestly slept with it for a few years under my fillow or clutching it...
So i appreciate your reply and agree 100% I think some people misread and misinterpret what they see and read in religion and i think to the shame of it all a lot of the religious leaders seek to teach their mis-interpretations to people??
I will add this maybe its not the right comparison "reason", but i freely talk to God and question many things not because i am insubordinate but because i am frail and human and imperfect and want to know?  I want to know why, and i ask for money and gifts and good health and miracles!  The good Lord has seen fit to answer some of my prayers and i think in a lot of ways does this through lifes circumstances and we are a lot of times none the wiser when things happen! 
Ever hear the term cannot see the forest through the trees!  Some people in many of lifes issues get soo caught up in the first line of trees they see they miss the entire beautiful mysterious and frightening forest that waits behind it!

Subject: this is over
Message: write your sob story. cry to your misinformed friends. find a new last name. i do not accept your actions. no one in your immediate family does.that is the decision we have made. leave us be. dont call. and please lie, lie, lie for the rest of your diluted life; it will only leave you in the same miserable position you find yourself now. leave us alone. leave us alone. do not call us your family . you slap us on one side of the face and kiss on the other. i am done. we are done. go away. go away. go away. 

This is my christian family...,

Quote from: Brianna on October 20, 2006, 11:01:44 AM
Subject: this is over
Message: write your sob story. cry to your misinformed friends. find a new last name. i do not accept your actions. no one in your immediate family does.that is the decision we have made. leave us be. dont call. and please lie, lie, lie for the rest of your diluted life; it will only leave you in the same miserable position you find yourself now. leave us alone. leave us alone. do not call us your family . you slap us on one side of the face and kiss on the other. i am done. we are done. go away. go away. go away. 

This is my christian family...,

That is just evil. I'm so sorry Brianna.