I have not taken the plunge and "given up male privilege" yet by transitioning at work, and I live alone. (Living alone means I cannot avoid "women's work - eg cleaning and cooking). Part of my hesitation in changing my physical presentation (after the health and financial costs) is the fear of social-emotional cost. During transition I will be a mix and feminine males are reviled and feared or hated by many. I believe I will lose credibility with some people - and credibility is important to my work. I will risk looking silly which I have run from all my life. I work with people who discount women, and make sexist jokes frequently. But nothing I keep by not transitioning makes me feel real or makes me happy. Just less unsafe.

I am not one now, but I was raised a Christian, and I remember some useful quotes, like this one:

           "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul?"

My soul is female, and male privilege is not worth its cost.

Quote from: pretty pauline on April 10, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
It certainly can be tiresome, sometimes when you least expect it, you get a reminder on this '' lost male privilege stuff'' yes it happen today.
Myself and my boyfriend went shopping for a new printer for the computer, I wasn't sure on loading the ink cartridges, I asked the guy a simply question, he answered but explaining it to my boyfriend and ignoring me, I wasn't letting it go, normally I would, just the mood I was in, then he answered rolling his eyes to the heavens ''its ok hun Iv just explained everything to your husband'' I was really annoyed, then at the checkout he says to BF, women should stick to flower arranging and leave the electric complicated stuff to men who know what they are doing, they saw it as a joke, well I didn't, btw my boyfriend is not my husband YET!
Just my fiancé, sorry for ranting and thanks for listening.
p

Geez Pauline, I would have been steaming!   If some jerk ever treated me that way I would be all over him and probably all over his manager.  (But then, I am completely capable of being a real bitch. )

When I was presenting male and married to a woman, she wanted to buy a little pickup truck.  The salesman saw us on the lot and homed in on me.  I pointed to my wife.  The salesman immediately turned his complete attention to her.  She drove a hard bargain but he made the sale.  I've always admired him for his flexibility.   Just because we're women, doesn't mean we have to put up with crap.

- Kate

I feel a little more vulnerable when walking alone at night... but that's about it. To me being a male was never really a privilege.

Quote from: Rachel B. on April 11, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
I feel a little more vulnerable when walking alone at night... but that's about it. To me being a male was never really a privilege.

I feel the same way on both points.


I think my age/life experience might be why I never found being male was a privilege, I'm not too sure though

Some privileges are bestowed upon the person and some are activerly acquired. Walking the streets at night without feeling like you are someone's prey is definitely in the first category, and a privilege lost for me.

But the ones like jumping to the front of the line, taking as much space as possible in a elevator or subway car, demanding the bigger plate, imposing's one point of view or mood on a crowd of people, not accepting being denied entry anywhere or having to wait, pretty much acting like a king, are acquired and reinforced in young males by older males.

I have never acted like that in my male life, and confused people that expected me to act like that because of my gender presentation.

Quote from: Rachel B. on April 11, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
To me being a male was never really a privilege.

This with bells on. In fact as soon as i discovered that white, middle class males have a kind of unspoken advantage in the world, just because they are white, middle class and male I realised two things; 1) I'm definitely a feminist and 2) I was cheating...if that makes sense.

Ditto.  And that makes a lot of sense.

- Kate

Everything I've learnt about the unearned advantage has made me want to shout something along the lines of "I never asked for it in the first place! Here, you have it!"

Oh boy. I am seen as:

a) less intelligent and don't know what I'm talking about.
b) weak and can't fend for myself
c) I am expected to do both male and female things...uh I do have brothers and sisters here at home that could do the jobs but I get asked first (chopping wood, taking mom and dad everywhere, while studying for an exam it can wait b/c family comes first even if it's for something simple that is reserved just for me, etc.)
d) if I am supposed to be nice all the time

I did an interview with IT people recently and they were pretty damn arrogant. I asked questions and they responded by leaning back in their seats, regarding my presence with incredulity, and bringing all the men.. not women.. into the office to meet me. They listened and what shocked me is they couldn't even tell me a definition of a computer 

I did not use any of their material in my term paper and did fine without that interview.

Quote from: Rock_chick on April 11, 2010, 05:03:28 PM
Everything I've learnt about the unearned advantage has made me want to shout something along the lines of "I never asked for it in the first place! Here, you have it!"

100% agree with this, I walk down the street see a woman and she glaces as looking at a guy, not a girl, I hate it.

Are there really privileges being a guy? I being a guy have yet really noticed any privileges, that could not be gained by a female. 

There's this 6'2, fairly attractive, mid 30s white male who based on all the privileges is still consider one of the lowest employees at my work place. Actually another guy is the same way too, tall and attractive, but consider weird. Everyone talks about the first one because he talks too much, and makes too many demeaning comments about "hot" women. All the women in the place are managers, mostly older women, but still women. People are more recognize for being friendly, efficient, and cooperative then they are for their looks, gender, and sexuality even. There's 2 gay guys, 2 bisexual women, and all of them except 1 bisexual woman are consider good employees. That last one is just weird since she's annoying and doesn't even sound comprehensive, everyone males and females are tired of her.

Even the owner is a woman, and then there's two co-owners; 1 woman and 1 male. Everyone prefers the female co-owner, since she isn't a "bitch", like the owner. The owner though is friendly to me, but she is demeaning to mostly everyone else. I hear people complain about her all the time, but if I was her I would had fired half the people already because everyone is way too slow.

I now feel too good for being in the place, because I work harder and more efficient then most of the people. It wasn't because I was a guy, since there's guys in my position consider horrible. And there's girls in my position consider good. It's about the work. I have no enemies in that place either, since everyone likes me too much, weird as that is.

And I am probably the strangest person in that place, but on the outside my demeanor changes to be alike the person I am speaking too.  It's like I can relate to everyone. And I am pretty sure if I was a female it would be the same, if not even more so... like if I was  female then I could make all those people worship the ground I walk on.

Megan - men have lots of privileges.

- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.

I do not believe that men should be privileged over women. I've had to battle through layer upon layer of guilt for not being a good enough "strong woman" to stay and help my sisters fight for equality. I still call myself a feminist, I'm quite an idealist, and I call out sexism whenever I see it. But I'm a realist and I know that male privilege exists because I'm living it, right now, even more so than I expected. I can't even turn it down - the best I can do is use it for good.

i agree 100 percent with kyril his points are on the money
jessica

Quote from: K8 on April 11, 2010, 07:31:16 AM
Geez Pauline, I would have been steaming!   If some jerk ever treated me that way I would be all over him and probably all over his manager.  (But then, I am completely capable of being a real bitch. )

When I was presenting male and married to a woman, she wanted to buy a little pickup truck.  The salesman saw us on the lot and homed in on me.  I pointed to my wife.  The salesman immediately turned his complete attention to her.  She drove a hard bargain but he made the sale.  I've always admired him for his flexibility.   Just because we're women, doesn't mean we have to put up with crap.

- Kate

I agree, I have not lost anything. I have gained a life.
BTW. I had a friend ( a medic) who had his own private practice. Well off to say the least. He walked into a car salesroom wearing rather daggy trackies and T shirt on a day he was off. Looking at an expensive sports car, the salesman came up to him and said (along the lines) " If you got yourself cleaned up and a job you might one day afford this" He was seriously p**d. He came back the next day in his suit etc. Went straight to the manager and told him that was going to pay cash for this expensive sports car but the salesman had insulted him etc. The poor guy was brought in and fired on the spot. I felt sorry for the salesman, but there is a message, be kind and polite to all, you never know when you may meet a prince, or princess.

Cindy

Quote from: jesse on April 12, 2010, 03:53:36 AM
i agree 100 percent with kyril his points are on the money
jessica

+1  I agree absolutely.

(But I'm still happy to be a woman. )

- Kate

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
Megan - men have lots of privileges.

- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.

A lot of very good points Kyril which I just agree with, but as Kate has just said in her post, ''Im still happy to be a woman'' from time to time I will meet a jerk who doesn't know how to treat a woman, yes we should be all equal and priveleges for all, but in the real world as my Mother said to me all them years ago when my transition was complete and I began to experience men from a woman's point of view, ''welcome to womanhood pauline dear, men will be men, get use to it girl'' its hard to get use to some men, but I still love being a woman, a woman with a trans history sometimes I think has to work harder particularly when you'v seen it from both sides.
Its a man's world, I don't mind making sacrifices to be the woman I am.
p

I agree with what you have said Kyril, but from personal experience...

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.

This is true, but not true at the same time. Deviate from accepted bounds of male-ness and you will draw attention and that's not even binging cross dressing into it. I've had abuse for wearing converse all stars, wearing flared jeans, having red hair and down to having a number of facial piercings...usually along the lines of crude insinuations about my sexuality.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.

However if dare to admit you are not competent, because lets face it pretending that you know what your doing when you don't is the mother, aunt and sister of all **** ups, you will be treated with contempt at best, or open hostility at worst.

The others, well I think you've got them right, but for some reason none of them have ever really applied to me.

I'm not saying Kyril is wrong in the main - but on many of the points he makes I do seem to be the odd one out...

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.

Who wants to be invisible? I don't I much prefer to make a grand entrance that people WILL remember.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.

Genuine help or advice is always welcome to me.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.

Actually I am not afraid to go out alone at night. Maybe I should be but I refuse to conform.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.

I am a very liberated and honest girl and I just don't care what people think on that score.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.

Not sure what this says about me really but I am almost always automatically invited by them anyway.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.

I am almost unoffendable anyway so the issue very seldom arises.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.

I do so anyway and I don't care how unacceptable people think it is - they soon realise that their sexist preconceptions are their problem not mine.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.

Mens clothes and colours are also boring, and anyway I can afford to buy good quality warm women's clothes - they are available - you just have to pay a bit more.

Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.

I simply don't - people either take me as I am, warts and all, or they can simply shove off! And as for personality I perfected the art of the eccentric non conforming Upper Class  county set girl years ago - think princess anne without the hassle of being royal.

Male privileges? I don't think there were such things existed in our society where positive discrimination against males, as well as the social ideology to be nice towards women..

I'd like to resist the temptation to (off topically) create a list of gender stereotypes and address the actual meaning of this topic.. Men buy drinks for the girls and open doors for them, don't they? Women are the only gender who gets privileges in society because we are seem as less capable as men, I know feminists will flame me for this but I think thats the origins of this inbuilt behaviour of our society..

Little Dragon - I think you have "privilege" backwards. Being seen as more capable is a privilege. Having things done for you because you're seen as less capable is not a privilege.

Buying drinks for someone is actually a display of privilege (the privilege of greater wealth). That's why many straight guys from older generations feel their masculinity is in question when women buy them things. Having things bought for you is a symbolic display of dependence.

Basically, just because something feels nice doesn't mean it's a privilege. And conversely, just because something feels burdensome doesn't mean it's not a privilege. A lot of male privilege can feel like a burden because it's accompanied by responsibilities and expectations. But it's that system of privileges, responsibilities, and expectations that has created a society where men hold a disproportionate number of positions of power (until recently, it was all such positions).

And "feminist" isn't a dirty word! No sane feminist would flame you for observing one of the ways our society shows its sexism. Even if you do have it backwards.