I shall start this thread with:


Secondly, an openminded mother is a great thing. Really, it's a useful thing, it radiates, and it can multitask (it also cooks dinner and offers to do your laundry). BUT (echo-echo-echo...) this wheel of fortune was definitely turned in the wrong direction.

The history in one, long sentence:
When I came out as a lesbian (10 years ago) my mother was very accepting (and announced it to the world), she was also then down with my ->-bleeped-<- apart from momentarily banning me from talking to transsexuals because she thought they were scary, old men in dresses (educational fix solved that one) and taking some distance from the subject as a whole which she always somewhat maintained.

Back to NOW (somewhat)
About a month ago I visited my mother and it was the first time she saw my binder. We had talked about it in the past and she was always supportive. That day was no different; she immediately wanted to see the whole thing and went 'oooh'. Good moment in id-less history.

Today I visited her with my new, shorter haircut and my attire was rather masculine. She commented that she liked the haircut, but that it made me look like a boy.
The conversation that followed:
Mum: You are a boy.
Me: Er no.
Mum: No, really, you're a boy.
Me: Er... No.... I'm more of a boy and girl.

I figured playing the 'both' card would make more sense to her than the actual 'neither' one, and of course I topped the conversation with a mature reply:
'Plus! If I had been a boy you would have named me [name] and I don't like that name. So there.'

So here I am, seated behind an ancient computer with the thought my mother thinks I am ftm or will identify as one in the future.
And I headdesk.

Part of me wants to throw an Androgyne Lecture at her, the other tells me to just let it slide, and then there's a third curious bunch of id-less particles that has a genuine interest why on earth she made that statement (twice) with not a single form of doubt.

The fourth part, writing this post, is wondering why on earth I'm giving this so much thought.
Meh, insight anyone? I could definitely use some... 

Lots of thoughts but accuracy is doubtful as I don't know your mother.

She thinks she is showing support so you will feel more comfort and has no idea what androgyne means to you.

That is my top thought.

I think LordKat has hit upon the most likely scenario. A lot of people don't understand "androgyne." To them, you're either one or t'other, with nothing in between.

I think you do need to explain more to her. She really does seem to want to be supportive and helpful.

I think that androgyn is the new "bi"....in that I mean...that people used to come out as bi because it was seen as "safer" than coming out as full on gay.

So...to add to the last two's thoughts...yea. She sounds (to me) as if she's trying to support your OBVIOUS  FtM identity by trying to show you how comfortable she is with that id...thus hoping you'll "tell the truth" and come all the way out.

This is my guess. *hugs*

I think LordKat has it right. Ironically (well sort of) the issues I'm having with some of my friends as I progress from male to female is regardless- they view me directly in between! It's not actually much of a problem for me self esteem wise, and they're all really open minded, it's just a... different response than I know a lot have gotten from their friends!

I guess it just takes some getting used to. In time maybe she can learn to see that there's a spectrum.

I think she is showing support by using her knowledge and views as they stand. It sounds like she wouldn't be offended by a discussion that would expand her knowledge and therefor her views. That would be given she is open minded about such things.
Sounds like you have a nice relationship.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
In a way it almost seems ironic to headdesk about an openminded mother. It just struck me as odd that she was genuinly happy to call me a boy, and even add 'I always wanted a son, and now 23 years later I finally have one' (which I didn't add in the OP).

Quote from: LordKAT on April 13, 2010, 05:05:36 PM
She thinks she is showing support so you will feel more comfort and has no idea what androgyne means to you.

Quote from: Arch on April 13, 2010, 05:25:49 PM
I think you do need to explain more to her. She really does seem to want to be supportive and helpful.

Yep she's definitely a supportive and helpful person, especially when she thinks she's right (human trait ). When I first came out to her as trangendered/androgyne I did my best to explain the androgyne part. I also got books and the like to make things more comprehensive. She never touched a book and often mentioned she didn't want to discuss the topic. It makes me think I should've waited a bit with the grand explanation.. Frankly, in the last few years she processed the information in her own way, was familiar with me putting on shirt after shirt to hide my chest, my tomboy-like behaviour ever since I was litte, and probably just added the label that made the most sense to her.

Quote from: phx_rising on April 13, 2010, 07:57:09 PM
So...to add to the last two's thoughts...yea. She sounds (to me) as if she's trying to support your OBVIOUS  FtM identity by trying to show you how comfortable she is with that id...thus hoping you'll "tell the truth" and come all the way out.

Based on my rant above, I think you're right...

My mother has a definite 'I'll love you no matter what' policy. While I do know that she's a bit off with her support this time I also need to recognise that it probably took her quite some time to wrap her head around everything and get to the point where she can actually genuinly support me. So it's a bit of a dilemma if I want to 'reverse' that process and ridden her of that 'I finally get it' sparkle in her eyes. Not the daughter she once envisioned and now not the son she is envisioning.. Hm.

Probably best thing is to give the whole thing some time and then bring it up again, see where she stands, explain where I stand and figure out why we both stand where we stand... In the end hardly any kid will ever be what their mother wants them to be, right?

Sometimes I think this all becomes vastly over complicated for us because we tend to overthink things.

I understand the feeling of frustration because what you are is a source of pride to you and so of course you want to share those insights with those nearest and dearest to you. It's horrible when people not only don't get something that you feel is impoartant, but also show no signs of understanding that there is anything there to "get".

Me I'm just happy to be me. I have a body which is female in shape and form. I like it and would never swap it for a male one however many extra bells and whistles they might come with!

I have a personallity which is all over the place and acknowleges no set boundaries. I like that too.

People can call me what they like. Girl, Boy, heck androgyne even, if they want to and as long as they aren't trying to be insulting I just can't be bothered to worry about a label. I'm going to go on wearin the same things, doing the same things, using the same toilet, (female in my case) irrespective of what they think. So the label, like the choice of pronoun is just a word. It doesn't change who I am.

I mean Androgyne is about being a bit of both right? - so whatever anyone chooses to call you they are going to be partly right. So sometimes I think it's just easier to let people have their illusions and deal with you as they perceive you to be.

I don't want to waste my life trying to educate people who don't understand that they need educating. I'd sooner just get on with being happily myself and marching to my chosen beat.

Like Kat says, I think your mum is just trying to be accepting, and perhaps it would be kindest to simply acknowledge that and leave her to her blissful misunderstanding. (I won't use the word ignorance) She will either understand or not in her own time and way. In the meantime you can get on with being yourself and let your actions show her what you are... for they will do so far more effectively than any words I feel.

I think you are in many ways in a good situation. You are accepted by your Mum, even if she isn't 100% sure of what she is accepting, but neither are you

I'm sorry to admit, but before I joined this forum I had never heard of the term 'Androgyne' the derivative meaning is obvious; but I had never heard of it.

So I suppose it should not be odd if 'mainstream' people have not followed the meaning either. I think be content with what you have, a nice accepting Mum who cares for you.


Hugs
Cindy

I definitely understand where people are coming from with 'Be glad your mum is supportive'. Really I do on an emotional level and consider myself blessed. On a logical, analytical level however, the cake is always sliced a bit differently.

The thing is, I don't identify as male or female, not as both and not as someone in between. I'm not on that scale, and hell, sometimes I even wonder if I'm in the spectrum.
Hence, to have my mother (or anyone else for that matter) tell me 'You are a boy' equals 'You are a girl', and the last would probably make more sense in terms of biology.

At the same time I can't help but wonder, which really isn't a stab at anyone whatsoever, that (putting aside a lack of knowledge of the androgyne identity) if my mother had still been determined a supportive, accepting individual if I had declared to be ftm years ago and she would have thrown me a 'You are androgyne' yesterday. Like I said; no stab, but just something that makes me wonder.
Of course, there is always the valid argument that at least she accepts and supports my ->-bleeped-<-, but that would be a celebrated statement that also demands that further details are irrelevant (are they?).

And I agree Jenny and Cindy, it would be 'the kindest to simply leave her to her blissful misunderstanding' and to be 'content with a nice, accepting mum'. Though at the same time how wrongfully hypocritical is it not to advocate for Androgyne Recognition if not able to bring it upon oneself to 'educate' an individual who is determined accepting, supportive and openminded throughout this thread and therefor could be seen a perfect candidate... What is better: to walk away and to harbour the positive without its context or to make the effort to shift the positive in the correct direction...?

I suppose this thread isn't as simple as I might have envisioned when I started it. It's pretty confusing actually with quite a few loops hither and thither. But, I guess it's something more androgynes, or transgendered even run into at some point in life.

IMO, I would find it hard to have a detailed, this is what I am, political conversation with my mom. The reason is that I would never want to jeopardize the emotion bond between us. I wouldn't want to argue, and walk away pissed because I couldn't get my point across. But I will always ask her for her opinion about politics. If she wanted to discuss her opinion, so be it. If it is different than mine, I say why, give her a hug and tell her 'I love you Mom'. And leave it as that. She'll think about it on her own terms, and in relationship to our emotional bond. If she has something to say about it later, so be it. But I would not restart a debate, or even the same exchange of information. She may not want to jeopardize that emotional bond either. Its why we still have this great loving emotional bond that nothing or anybody can take away. For me, thats more important than anything that there is about me. I need that arm around my shoulder, that hug, that look into my eyes that says 'I will always love you no matter what'. That gets me through life much better than being politically correct.
My life as an androgyne.......probably the same way.

My mom sounds similar in her understanding/ acceptance of Androgyne.  She will occasionally try to push me into dressing more feminine, and then apologise, saying she realizes thats not who I am.  I think deep down she wishes I was still the little girl running around in Ballet costumes, but I know she's trying. It took some time for her to be able to tell me I looked nice in "boy clothes", but she's getting there.

I've realized lately how lucky I am to have awesome parents. It's pretty much impossible to do anything they would consider surprising or weird anymore.  Dance teacher/ actress/ Musical theatre coreographer mother, and an Actor/ director/ stage combat coreographer father?  They would probably be dissapointed if I had turned out normal.

Ativian, I get where you're coming from. If that's what works for you I can only call 'bliss' - as long as it's what makes you happy you know?

I don't really have an alike bond with my mother; it's more of an equal-relationship than a child-mother one. Past events attribute to that. We often have discussions wether it's about politics, philosophy, sexuality or whatsoever. I tell her when she's wrong, and she tells me. In the end we shake each other's hand whether we agree or not. Thus, if she'd wind up shunning me over a discussion I'd just shrug my shoulders and walk away.

Haha Kyle, my mother used to do that when I was younger; tell me I looked great in feminine clothes whatsoever. I went my own way regardless, and eventually she accepted that.

Quote from: kyle_lawrence on April 14, 2010, 05:02:08 PM
I've realized lately how lucky I am to have awesome parents. It's pretty much impossible to do anything they would consider surprising or weird anymore.  Dance teacher/ actress/ Musical theatre coreographer mother, and an Actor/ director/ stage combat coreographer father?  They would probably be dissapointed if I had turned out normal.

Hell, I think the whole world would've been dissapointed.

There's everyone in the world and then there's Mom. 

Your mum loves you and is trying to understand bless her heart! It's never easy for parents they have to raise their children with letting them make decisions for themselves. I have that similar set of feelings not sure being male anymore or what I am .You not alone at least here you can express these thoughts and feeling.

Quote from: RAY on April 17, 2010, 11:39:27 PM
Your mum loves you and is trying to understand bless her heart! It's never easy for parents they have to raise their children with letting them make decisions for themselves. I have that similar set of feelings not sure being male anymore or what I am .You not alone at least here you can express these thoughts and feeling.

Oh definitely; kids are probably the most confusing aspect of any parent's existence.
In the past I used to keep thoughts to myself, but now I know that posting my thoughts will give me some good, useful feedback not only to myself, but also others.

I've also decided that I am going to call my mother and go over the matter. Ease my curiosity as to why she figured I was a boy (in her mind). Think that her answer might also be useful for others.

Hi,

   I think most of the responses take the point of view of your mother. From the point of view of you -

   You may have become accustomed to how your mother was acting toward you. You may have too easily expected her to understand more than she does. When she voiced this surprising view so firmly, your expectations did not match her view. You weren't ready to hear anything like 'you're a boy'. It confounded you and caused you to head-desk.
   Alongside the vexing, 'you're a boy' statement, you'd come upon an unexpected reaction which is why you dwelled up on it. Possibly.
    You forgot one of the big rules - There is always a ghost in the machine of cis understanding.

    As your psychiatrist, I suggest you place all of your money in an envelope, except enough to buy a stamp, and mail it to me.  I better not see any Icelandic volcanic ashes in it.



Rebis

Haha Reeb, thanks for the feedback. I definitely know I was overthinking and was pretty selfabsorbed in my analysis of the situation. But, it proved an interesting sprial of thought nonetheless.

In the end, I did talk about it with my mother (I finally got a hold of her on the phone tonight), and the conversation was good and worth updating this thread for.

I first told her that there was something I had continued to think about ever since I last visited her and asked her if she remembered telling me I am a boy. She confirmed and I said I was curious as to why she had said that because she sounded so utterly convinced. She replied and explained that she is convinced; "because you are a boy, you dress like one, you act like one, you walk, talk and sometimes even smile as one".
So I asked her if that was always the case, even when I was a little kid.
"Yes," she explained "When you were little you were always the tough one. You were an adorable child... I could dress you up like a girl and you'd go out and play soldier, roll through the dirt and then come home all smudged. You were never a girl, even when you looked one."
I explained to her that I wasn't a transsexual but a transgender nonetheless, and she confirmed she knew that, also remarked that I had changed a lot since I moved out and got my current SO. I told her that it was because I now finally felt I had the freedom to present the way I feel. She laughed... "Then you are a boy.."
"But," she added "You are too sweet to be a boy."
"So I'm a stereotypical effeminate gay guy?"
"Yes!... You do those femmy things, and have that femme laugh every now and then! Yes. If you were born a guy you'd be very gay."
I told her it was partially her fault since she pumped all those genes into my eggcell creating a weird combo... She laughed and said she was damn proud of what she had created.

Thus, in the end, my mother sees me as an effeminate guy and thinking back about my conversation with her I figure that she's far more openminded than what I (or anyone else probably) expected. Apparently she's one of those folk who can actually distinguish gender from sex, and realise that not all gender/sex clashes are a dysphoria driven road to transition... Hell, she probably would've made a great psychologist... I'm proud of her and the fact that she's my mum. 

And you know what? Female femme gay guy doesn't sound like a bad description.

Honestly? I want to get to a point with my mother where that's how she thinks of me, since that's how I identify.

I'm glad you could get there with your mum.