My wife insisted that I shave under my arms since the day we were married and then she says she likes the less-odorous condition too since under arm hair is a breeding place for bacteria.

As far as body shaving, she likes it too as we are both hairless and she likes the smoothness of us together. I guess I'm fortunate.

Sounds to me like your kid is gonna find out, even if you hardly do anything else suspicious. Kids can be pretty damn smart, and yours sounds like one of them.

Maybe something to bring up to your partner? Sounds like she's afraid your 'deviant behavior' will have some sort of horrible and traumatic effect on your kids. If you want to keep pursuing this, it might be worth having that talk with her. Try and address those fears.

Quote from: Cody Oriole on November 21, 2009, 11:45:42 PM
Sounds to me like your kid is gonna find out, even if you hardly do anything else suspicious. Kids can be pretty damn smart, and yours sounds like one of them.

Maybe something to bring up to your partner? Sounds like she's afraid your 'deviant behavior' will have some sort of horrible and traumatic effect on your kids. If you want to keep pursuing this, it might be worth having that talk with her. Try and address those fears.

Yes, I have a very sharp daughter. She's already busted me with clear nail polish.

My wife is a gem, we've been married a very long time, and have been through a tremendous (!) amount of crap in that time, enough to make a lot of other people divorce. We've stuck together through thick and thin. We get each other. And she is cute 

I don't know if she sees my actions as "deviant", but I don't think so. We talk a lot, and we have discussed the leg shaving thing. I'd make a guess that she simply realizes that this is who I am. Life has layers (like an onion), and sometimes you have to peel off a few layers to get to the truth. After 22 years of marriage, we've both peeled quite a few layers off of each other, and the real person has been revealed. I should have known this when I made this post. We just needed to talk it out. And obviously I have a few more layers to peel with my trans tendencies.

I'm sensitive to her wishes that I don't do anything to "out" myself to our daughters. They are in their formative years, and having a genderqueer dad might be a problem for them. I get that. This is where the original concern sprang from. I mean, what kid wants a dad that is genderqueer?

Who knows what may happen later on down the road? But for now the kids don't have to know and I will make sure that they don't know.

your legs look amazing! how can your wife not be happy? they look great! she'll undoubtedly open up to the idea and things will get easier. my girlfriend didn't like it at first, but she's really warmed up to my male/female sides too. people adjust with time.

some adjust some would rather shoot you

Quote from: Thebothofus on November 25, 2009, 09:12:28 PM
your legs look amazing! how can your wife not be happy? they look great! she'll undoubtedly open up to the idea and things will get easier. my girlfriend didn't like it at first, but she's really warmed up to my male/female sides too. people adjust with time.

ummmmm.... she really hasn't seen them lately, or in "girl" mode yet. I work out of town for much of the month, and i'm only home for very short periods of time each month before I have to head out again (darn economy, no local jobs). She only saw part of a leg when she made the original comment.

So, because of my work schedule there hasn't been much "intimate" time since I shaved them.

Mine didn't like it it either...I think gg's feel threatened by it in the sense that smooth legs would be the ultimate thing of feminity or something.  Mine was sensitive to the tiniest thing.  (Now I'm divorced (no kids), I go to the spa and wax and love it!)   

Best thing to do is keep talking to her.....A lot of guys have it done these days, no issue at the spa (of course you're a paying customer, too).  Take a martial art class, grappling or something, then you have an excuse!  After a while it becomes 'normal' then stop taking the class, but continue to shave.  Just an idea....

Mine was not either; fortunately I am no longer married because it was a constant source of conflict. She knew about my GID and of course wanted to ignore it because we had a comfortable live. I just could not stand my body hair and started getting full body waxing (it felt absolutely wonderful). She asked why I did it and I told her I just did not like body hair. I also had frequent pedicures with clear polish (OK so I let a little pink tinge sneak in). She mostly ignored it although every time I waxed she complained. I finally told her that I was going to seriously address my GID and pursue transition; she moved on. I never had any comment about hairlessness because so many men get waxed now.

   I have to ask you if you care more about your wife then you do with transitioning androgynously?
This post is with all of my respect to your decisions!
I mean, assuming you had a talk about it recently, she married a man, not an androgyne.
Do you think this would ever become too much for her to stand?
I respect ourselves psychologially when it comes to being androgyne or having GID.. But I also am starting to realize how my problem is going to suddenly become a problem to people I care about.
Women marry men for not only the sense of security a man provides, but there is so much more then that. To have that taken away from her in some ways must be really hard. I don't entirely understand your situation but i've been dealing with these thoughts myself so I am curious about how you have coped with how this might impact someone close to you?
I did read your other post, but I am thinking about this..And whether or not someone knowes now or much later will in ways be equivelent in damage. That is subjective and it depends of course! But a person may think: "so all this time.." and thoughts that go along with that concept will emerge as well. I just have to ask though if you find it is worth it? I mean you seem to have such a life settled for yourself and all.. So I find transitioning at a point to where you've gone as far as being a man to have a wife, and kids a tad bizarre..I respect you completely i want you to know, and understand that every ones situation is different at so many angles.. But I hope you don't mind my wondering, it's more so for my own knowledge when it comes to facing my own transgender issues..

Quote from: Rhalkos on April 25, 2010, 09:23:22 PM
Oh boy, is that ever a problematic statement!
Perhaps in the 1950s and before women married for a sense of security, but that's becoming rarer and rarer these days.

Well I personally believe that this is a deep, and natural instinct in the typical female. 
  I definitely don't think this kind of nature has been abandoned in the '50s. Well yes, it may be distorted evidentially, compared, due to the dramatics of our time now (which is me considering the subjective opinion on this matter visibly) but I don't think that this kind of thing disappeares. 

Quote from: Rhalkos on April 25, 2010, 09:37:25 PM
Ouch. That's pretty misogynistic.

Goodness... not at all. 

Quote from: Rhalkos on April 25, 2010, 09:37:25 PM
Ouch. That's pretty misogynistic.

Yes. Yes, it is.

Riven: A kid might not want a dad who's an androgyne (maybe, you never know, they might be cool with it) but they certainly don't want a dad who's lying to them. Not explicitly telling them you're an androgyne is one thing, but taking pains to hide any and all signs of gender non-conformity is another. If nothing else, it sends the signals that (1) gender non-conformity is something to hide and be ashamed of, and (2) it's ok to hide who you are from your family.

Imagine how you would feel if your daughter was a lesbian, but didn't trust you enough to tell you, because she believed that you and your wife wouldn't want a lesbian daughter, or were too old to be accepting of her. Imagine if her lack of trust went so deep that she felt she had to bring home fake boyfriends to reassure you. Wouldn't that hurt, when you finally (inevitably) found out?

I shave my legs regularly, and while I wear pants to work (and probably always would even without social pressure), my general finding is that people don't care.  Most people either don't notice or don't bring it up, and a smaller number will notice how nice my legs my legs look (some 7-year-old boy at a cousin's birthday party, my mom, my sister, have actually handled them with varying degrees of wonder and amazement -- to date, my mom was the only one who freaked out, and that was only after I hinted to her why she was so drawn to them).

I am just a single case, and I probably am helped by having fairly good legs (if I may say so), but outrage is not the norm.  However, while one may feel justified in hiding parts of who they are to people in general, it is probably a good idea to generally be honest about who you are to those you are closest to.  Doing so has certain advantages:

1) You avoid getting "caught."
2) You avoid worrying about getting "caught."
3) You can get everything out of the way quickly.  Whether things hold together or fall apart, you can focus on *moving on*.  A death by a thousand cuts is torture for you and them.
4) Maybe most importantly, you can lay out what the limits of your situation are.  There is no worrying about what is the next bombshell, because you have laid out all the consequences.

From there, you can engage in an open exchange of ideas about whether you can fill each other's needs.  Leg shaving probably has fewer (probably zero) alternatives that would work for you than would work for her.  Also, I am inclined to say that the parties involved generally have authority of what they do to their own bodies.  If there is a certain sense of "ruggedness" she is looking for, perhaps you possess such a characteristic you can emphasize for her without betraying your own identity.

Agree about being honest - I recently "came out" to her complete with a couple of pics. It was past time to do so, and for the reasons you listed.

From there we had a *very* frank talk. It was quite rocky for awhile, but we got through it. It's all good now.

She now gets that i'm genderfluid, and while not exactly crazy about it, she accepts it. Lines and boundaries were established.

When the kids move out I suspect that we'll have another round of talking. She wanted me to lay low until the kids are gone, and i can accept that.

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Post Merge: April 26, 2010, 08:39:18 AM

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Quote from: Torn1990 on April 25, 2010, 09:17:28 PM
   I have to ask you if you care more about your wife then you do with transitioning androgynously?

Actually, i do. She is the most important person in my life right now. And we've been married for many, many, years. We are in a committed, stable, long time relationship. And we like each other.

Quote from: torn1990
I mean, assuming you had a talk about it recently, she married a man, not an androgyne.
Do you think this would ever become too much for her to stand?

She made that very point during our discussion (with some passion!). She pointed out that she always liked things about me that made me manly, including the leg hair (yuck!). I got to see things from her point of view.

Quote from: torn1990
I respect ourselves psychologially when it comes to being androgyne or having GID.. But I also am starting to realize how my problem is going to suddenly become a problem to people I care about.
Women marry men for not only the sense of security a man provides, but there is so much more then that. To have that taken away from her in some ways must be really hard. I don't entirely understand your situation but i've been dealing with these thoughts myself so I am curious about how you have coped with how this might impact someone close to you?

This is a valid consideration. I didn't just decide to be an androgyne one day, i was born with it. Part of this process is to bring my wife along with knowledge that i've gained over the past few years about gid, and it's affects on me throughout my life/growing up. As she learns she understands more and more where i'm at.

Quote from: torn1990
I did read your other post, but I am thinking about this..And whether or not someone knowes now or much later will in ways be equivelent in damage. That is subjective and it depends of course! But a person may think: "so all this time.." and thoughts that go along with that concept will emerge as well. I just have to ask though if you find it is worth it? I mean you seem to have such a life settled for yourself and all.. So I find transitioning at a point to where you've gone as far as being a man to have a wife, and kids a tad bizarre..I respect you completely i want you to know, and understand that every ones situation is different at so many angles.. But I hope you don't mind my wondering, it's more so for my own knowledge when it comes to facing my own transgender issues..

For me, it was important to find middle ground. One of her concerns was that i might "transition". I had to explain what being genderfluid meant, and transitioning wasn't for me. That eliminated one of her big concerns. And you are right in that i have a settled life, and rocking the boat at this point seems unwise. But like i told her, I just figured this out for myself (to the point of being able to discuss it fully), and I felt it was important to be honest about it with her. As i would want her to do if she had a major deal going on in her life. As long as there is open communication a lot of things can be worked through. And we have pretty much worked through this one.

And may i say to the other ladies that went through this process and did transition (or plan to), you have my deepest respect. I can see how painful it must have been.

Quote from: riven1 on April 26, 2010, 08:10:51 AM

Actually, i do. She is the most important person in my life right now. And we've been married for many, many, years. We are in a committed, stable, long time relationship. And we like each other.

wonderful. lucky sod 

 Ah Riven, you answered those questions in a way that I hoped you would...and more ofcourse.
It really gives me alot of hope knowing that you found someone willing to support these
inevitable obstacles where you relieve that side of yourself.
I guess i'm so used to marriages being so sticky and one sided, (my mom is currently
divorcing my step dad.) so I think my questions derrived from this as well.
When love is true, it can stand up against things like this. So i'm just happy for you!

Quote from: Torn1990 on April 26, 2010, 05:58:25 PM
Ah Riven, you answered those questions in a way that I hoped you would...and more ofcourse.
It really gives me alot of hope knowing that you found someone willing to support these
inevitable obstacles where you relieve that side of yourself.
I guess i'm so used to marriages being so sticky and one sided, (my mom is currently
divorcing my step dad.) so I think my questions derrived from this as well.
When love is true, it can stand up against things like this. So i'm just happy for you!

Well, we'll see if my relationship can withstand crossdressing. That's a road that has yet to be traveled, and i suspect may be a huge nut to crack. The wife is ok with my feminine side (she says, but i really think it's more in the "in theory" area, reality may be shocking), but to see me crossdressed is probably gonna be the next hurdle. Halloween might bring up an opportunity 

I ussed Halloween as an oportunity to dress in public many times over the years.

BTW, it is not "a tad bizarre" to transition later in life while one has a wife and children.

During therapy or while doing a great deal of soul searching, many of us have found that we needed to complete our lives as the women we feel we are inside. Sometimes we knew at an early age that we were trans, but in a futile attempt at a "normal" life, we took the road of gender conformity. Others of us, only realized later in life, that we were in fact not CD, but TS/TG and realized that we needed to go full time.

For younger people, in today's internet generation, it may be easier to reach self enlightenment about your options. For those of us a little older and without the information available today, we may have even thought that we were alone in the world or nuts.

I'm glad that Riven has found a happy middle ground with her wife. For others who need to live full time or have surgery, the pressures on the marriage intensify and sadly don't last. I do applaud all of the non tg partners out there who take a "wait and see" attitude towards their spouses transition. Sometimes they are rewarded with an even stronger, closer relationship.   

Quote from: Torn1990 on April 25, 2010, 09:17:28 PM
I mean, assuming you had a talk about it recently, she married a man, not an androgyne.
Do you think this would ever become too much for her to stand?
I respect ourselves psychologially when it comes to being androgyne or having GID.. But I also am starting to realize how my problem is going to suddenly become a problem to people I care about.
Women marry men for not only the sense of security a man provides, but there is so much more then that. To have that taken away from her in some ways must be really hard. I don't entirely understand your situation but i've been dealing with these thoughts myself so I am curious about how you have coped with how this might impact someone close to you?
I did read your other post, but I am thinking about this..And whether or not someone knowes now or much later will in ways be equivelent in damage. That is subjective and it depends of course! But a person may think: "so all this time.." and thoughts that go along with that concept will emerge as well. I just have to ask though if you find it is worth it? I mean you seem to have such a life settled for yourself and all.. So I find transitioning at a point to where you've gone as far as being a man to have a wife, and kids a tad bizarre..I respect you completely i want you to know, and understand that every ones situation is different at so many angles..

Ok. I'm going to adress each of these points because I felt imediately defensive of all the "Trans moms" I know. One, it is not odd at all for a Translady,Genderqueer or androgyne  to  pursue this later in life or to have children. In fact that has been the more common demograpic, and partialy because these people were often pressured by society to live as "men" and thus not transistion or show any form of fem gender expression. (depending where you fit) and or they met a person that they truely love. Eventually though dispite all the building of a family, one has to be true to ones self. (My hats off to her for balancing this we the grace she has).

Second, no one would do this if it wasn't worth it to them.
Lastly I think I think you arn't giving Riven, or anyone here, enough credit. We all will have to deal with family and parents and siblings and lovers...and so on. For myself I could no longer lie to my parents, and at this point I am being careful about broaching the subject with my tiny neices and nephews. (I'm 21)
Riven will do right by the people closest by, because of love.

Also it is because of people like Riven who are brave that the younger generation can tackle most of these issues BEFORE we build families of our own. Unlike the previous generation we are luckier in that sense and we have them to thank.