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Scientific American - The Third Gender

Started by Chloe, May 24, 2010, 04:11:23 AM

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Chloe

Has anyone seen the May 2010 Scientific American? I don't usually post much these days but am surprised there hasn't been more discussion on articles this entire issue is devoted to. Instead of coming up with more diversity, more in "terms general" & more confusion I really do think the magazine has done a good job of creating more focus and definition between us instead.

One of my best friends is a very similar to I TS or so I thought. While a member who doesn't post much here lately either I always thought/assumed we both shared much in common in the sense that were both older, married with kids and originally from the same geographic area of the US (which is not where we are now) but having spent much more time with her family than her with mine (my kids are much younger), what truly amazes me most is where her and my similarities clearly end.

One very good article in question is HERE.
Quote from: page 2Nearly all FtM transsexuals have a similar story—they are overwhelmingly homosexual (attracted to women). Male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, on the other hand, are a much more diverse group, in terms of both their sexual orientation and the psychological underpinnings of their trans sexuality
Obviously they are talking about partner preferences but if one looks at page 3 there's an excellent outline of the possible social/cultural influences that go along with that as well. While no-one is examining/arguing the real possible origins of TS(a wholly separate question) I think it's important to understand the other cultural influences at work in our lives that have a big impact if were ever gonna get closer to understanding better the motivations behind some of the behavior we otherwise exhibit (and gender partner preferences is an excellent indicator/example of one way to do that)

Among MtF we tend to fall into two radically distinct types and I suppose the point I am trying to get across concerning my close "with family" girlfriend and I is as a fellow TS, being just as much different as we are the same, I am not really any closer to understanding her behavior as anybody else might be (ie: like her own wife & kids) as we are in fact dealing with two very different "animals" or pathologies altogether . . . we're about as different as night is to day and I too am at a complete loss in attempting to help and and try explain Keri (my friend) to her wife and family as well!

I know I am what's known as a "classic TS" but Keri and most here? In plz excusing/overlooking their use of the word " ->-bleeped-<-" to simply make one possible distinction/explaination (let's not argue mere words used by THEM to describe US again!) according to this article at least I am very much in the minority and Susan's in general tends to confirm that as well?

Any Thoughts?
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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LordKAT

confusion, FTM are gay but attracted to women?

The ones on this site would seem to refute that. Many are gay, attracted to men.

Does not sound like a good article to me, preaching on the autogynophile thing for starters.
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spacial

Have to agree with you Kat.

These articles are interesting in as much as they indicate to the rest of us what they intelegncia are thinking.

The rest of us can smile when they come out with phrases beging with Most of the....

Have they really asked most of the...? How did they locate most of the...? What criteria did they use to select their most of the... and exclude so the others?

Should we, who are not part of the Most of the... start to think about our personal hygine or perhaps its something much darker?

Or we could just have a laugh.
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Chloe

Quote from: LordKAT on May 24, 2010, 04:21:10 AMThe ones on this site would seem to refute that. Many are gay, attracted to men.

Kat, WRONG! Ur arguing semantics, something I specifically asked to AVOID, a FtM attracted to females would be "gay", more inline with the MtF "classic" type (and not the other way around like ur trying to imply)
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
  •  

LordKAT

Semantics aside, the FTM's on this board often like men, not women. That was the main point.
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spacial

For my part Kiera, I apologise if my response suggested that I wasn't taking the article seriously.

Sadly, I haven't read it because it needs payment to access.

Can you write a review?
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Linus

Do a poll or scientific study to find out how many are gay or straight. A general statement, whether by SA or us here, is nothing more than a general statement. I think the statement that  SA is making is prior to transition they were gay (they should have used were, not are). That's not an accurate statement either. I think the reality is that we're rarely studied and that most studies I've seen are towards MTFs and we're pretty much ignored.
My Personal Blog: http://www.syrlinus.com
My Cigar Blog: http://www.cigarnewbie.com
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cynthialee

Odd...Most of the FTM dudes I am friends with are bisexual. I should inform them scientific american thinks they should be into chicks only.
lol
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Sandy

I bought it, and read it and it was a complete waste!  DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY!  DO NOT BUY THIS MAGAZINE!

Do not take anything it says as truthful.  This clown psychologist quotes from the most mistrusted sources, Blanchard, Lawence and Zucker.

It was a complete waste.  To assume anything he says about ->-bleeped-<- and sexual orientation is well researched or thought out is very suspect.

Here is my review that I posted when it came out:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,75506.0.html

And besides, who cares what your sexual orientation is?  Depending on your point of view you are simultaneously gay and straight no matter where you are on the gender spectrum.  Big deal...

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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cynthialee

Quote from: Sandy saidDepending on your point of view you are simultaneously gay and straight no matter where you are on the gender spectrum.
Funny you should say that. I have almost always felt like I was being homosexual no matter which sex the person I am making love with.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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spacial

Thanks Sandy. I remember it now. I contributed to the thread.

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FairyGirl

omg I bought this magazine but haven't read it yet. After reading the excerpt I don't think I want to.

Quote from: Kiera on May 24, 2010, 04:11:23 AM
I know I am what's known as a "classic TS" but Keri and most here? In plz excusing/overlooking their use of the word " ->-bleeped-<-" to simply make one possible distinction/explaination (let's not argue mere words used by THEM to describe US again!) according to this article at least I am very much in the minority and Susan's in general tends to confirm that as well?
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're trying to say here. What is "Susan's in general"? Can we really know "most here"? "Classic transsexual" refers to so called homosexual transsexuals which as defined by this article means attracted to your birth gender, in other words for MTF's, straight women. I do post here a lot and I see a large cross section of both men and women, as well as plenty who don't define themselves as either (okay, and a couple wackadoodles who are WAY out there which might skew the opinion of a casual observer :)). Among these I see sexual orientation ranging from completely gay/lesbian to completely hetero and everything in between. But sexual orientation here is as diverse as the membership.

If you want a poll on orientation of members, there is one here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14719.0.html

It breaks down as follows:

I'm a straight man. - 25 (8.6%)
I'm a straight woman. - 48 (16.4%)
I'm gay. - 26 (8.9%)
I'm lesbian. - 44 (15.1%)
I'm a bisexual man.- 28 (9.6%)
I'm a bisexual woman.- 47 (16.1%)
I'm asexual. - 20 (6.8%)
I'm an androgyne attracted to men. - 3 (1%)
I'm an androgyne attracted to women. - 9 (3.1%)
I'm a bisexual androgyne. - 29 (9.9%)
I have no idea. - 13 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 236

It would seem according to this poll that "Susan's in general" (or the 236 who voted anyway) is pretty much neck and neck straight women (women attracted to men) and bisexual women first/second, with lesbian coming in a close third, and bisexual androgyne a distant fourth. My own vote in the poll was straight woman, meaning that sexually I am attracted to men pretty much exclusively these days. I never was homosexual, even though I have had at least three long term relationships with men, so I don't understand such outdated terms as "classic transsexual". It's like trying to use old paradigms to describe "new" phenomena, or putting new wine in old wineskins. It's very difficult to talk about this article which is apparently based on semantics without arguing semantics, sorry.

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Linus

Interesting poll. I might have tweaked it a little further to breakdown based on gender orientation and sexual orientation.
My Personal Blog: http://www.syrlinus.com
My Cigar Blog: http://www.cigarnewbie.com
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Chloe

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 24, 2010, 08:53:51 AM"Classic transsexual" refers to so called homosexual transsexuals which as defined by this article means attracted to your birth gender, in other words for MTF's, straight women . . . It's very difficult to talk about this article which is apparently based on semantics without arguing semantics, sorry
*sigh* ain't THAT the truth! Oh well, here's the article in question - for what it's worth - and I will NEVER, EVER attempt a rational discussion with another TS again cause obviously *a consensus* on anything just ain't ever gonna happen anytime soon at all!

In teasing together these three related but distinct constructs of biology, gender and sexual orientation, scientists are starting to better understand the phenomenon of trans sexuality, a term defined by the American Psychological Association as "a strong and persistent cross-gender identification and a persistent discomfort with [one's] biological sex". Their finding are revealing that even within the transsexual community there is much diversity. For example, a biological male who experiences gender dysphoria, and thus feels like a female, can be either gay or straight when it comes to his sexual orientation. And beyond the mixing and matching that occurs between sex, gender and sexual orientation, a huge array of psychological and cultural factors seems to underlie or affect trans sexuality. Scientists are starting to unravel these seemingly innumerate influences.

Mind over Gender
Although mental states can differ widely among transsexuals, most report experiencing gender dysphoria - the unhappy mismatch between biological sex and gender identity. A good example of gender dysphoria is the case of Chaz, formally Chasity, Bono, daughter-cum-son of entertainers Sonny and Cher.After living most of her adult life as a lesbian, Bono announced in mid-2008 that he was in fact a transsexual and had begun to transition from the lesbian "Chasity" to the straight male identity of "Chaz". (Chaz is just as attracted to his girlfriend, Jennifer, as was Chasity was before the transition, only given Bono's physical metamorphosis, their is arguably no longer a same-sex relationship.) As a female-to-male (FtM) transsexual, Chaz has already had his breasts removed and has embarked on a regimen of testosterone treatment, which has caused his voice to drop by a full octave as well as stimulated a noticeable five o'clock shadow.

"Gender is between your ears and not between your legs" Bono said during a 2009 interview with ABC's Good Morning America. "As a child, is was really clear. I felt like a boy . . . As you get older, it gets more confusing, because suddenly there's more pressure to fit into your assigned gender identity. (And so) a lot of FtMs end up doing a stint in the lesbian community because it just kind of makes sense."

Nearly all FtM transsexuals have a similar story - they are overwhelmingly homosexual (attracted to women). Male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, on the other hand, are a much more diverse group, in terms of both their sexual orientation and the psychological underpinnings of their trans sexuality. In he late 1980's University of Toronto psychiatrist Ray Blanchard introduced the theory of " ->-bleeped-<-", in which he argued that the heterosexual MtF transsexuals (that is, biological males who are attracted to women but wish to to transition to a female identity) are in fact sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as females. As an example of  ->-bleeped-<-, consider the following account by male-to-female transsexual Nancy Hunt in her memoir Mirror Image (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1978). "I was feverishly interested in (girls)," Hunt writes. "I studied their hair, their cloths, their figures. And I brooded about the increasing differences between us. I seethe with envy while at the same time becoming sexually aroused - I wanted to posses them even as I wanted to become them. In my night-time fantasies, as I masturbated or floated toward sleep, I combined the two compulsions, dreaming of sex but with myself as the girl."

"Some male-to-female transsexuals may be arosed by the thought of themselves as women. They want to look like the objects they desire."

Love Thy Self
According to Blanchard, such cases exemplify "erotic target location errors", in which individuals seek to change their appearance so that they more resemble the persons or things they desire. Whereas most people search for their erotic targets elsewhere, autogynephiles are prone to a search strategy error whereby they identify the object of their desires under their very own skin.

Unsurprisingly, Blanchard's theory of  ->-bleeped-<- rubs many transsexuals the wrong way Sex may be a part of it, they say, but their identities have less to do with deviant desires than with feeling simply that they are women trapped in the bodies of men. But recently a prominent psychologists named Anne Lawrence - a male-to-female transsexual - has advocated a more more nuanced version of Blanchard's theory. Just as relationships evolve from primarily lusty and erotic attractions to more romantic, less overly sexual forms of love, she says, so, too, might autogynephiles slowly develop a nonsexual, romantic attachment to themselves as women.

Lawrence bases her theory on the similarities she has noticed among heterosexual MtF transsexuals in her Seattle clinic. Most are quite masculine in appearance and have led successful lives as men, usually in male-dominated professions such as engineering, business or computer science; often they are married and have several children. Curiously, many have autistic-like traits: they seem more interested in things than in other people and have a background of poor social relationships. And almost invariably, Lawrence points out, they have a history of sexual arousal by cross-dressing.

In a 2007 article in Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, Lawrence writes that the heterosexual MtF transsexuals she has seen "typically want to undergo sex reassignment surgery as quickly as possible and want to their new genitals to resemble as closely as possible the female genitals they love and idealize. After surgery, these transsexuals are not only relieved to be rid of their male genitals but are delighted with their female-appearing genitals and are often eager to display them to other people (e.g. [in the parking lot] at transsexual support group meetings)"

In contrast, homosexual MtF transsexuals - those attracted to men - do not idealize female genitalia and "often seem indifferent or ambivalent about undergoing sex reassignment surgery," Lawrence writes. Indeed, most researchers agree that their are meaningful differences between gay and straight MtF transsexuals - including, intriguingly, the cultures in which they exist.

Emerging Cultures
Cultural influences are perhaps the least understood aspect of transsexuality - in large part the effects of culture are so hard to define and study. Still, the evidence suggests that these factors strongly influence whether MtF transsexuals tend to be gay of straight. In Far Eastern countries such as Korea, Malaysia. Singapore and Thailand, fewer than 5 percent of MtF transsexuals may be heterosexual. The rest are homosexual biological males, usually extremely feminine in their behavior and appearance and exclusively attracted toward men. (These are the so-called kathoeys or ladyboys of Southeast Asia.) In striking contrast, this ratio of gay to straight is almost perfectly flipped in the West, where 75 percent or more of American and British transsexuals are heterosexual - attracted to women - or bisexual.

Lawrence published a study online in December 2008 in the Archives of Sexual Behavior that may help explain this trend. She reports that the more a society is collectivist - that is, the more it values social norms over individual expression - the greater the percentage of homosexual MtF transsexuals. This correlation, she says, could result from the fact that in collectivist countries, such as those in Southeast Asia, effeminate, homosexual men are not well tolerated - they may fare better as women in accepted transgender roles such as ladyboys. Men who are too masculine to pass as women, on the other hand, would be shunned if they tried to do so. Countries such as the U.S. and U.K., on the other hand, place more value on individual expression and personal choice and are therefore more tolerant of both effeminate men and masculine MtF transsexuals.

Clearly, there are radical differences underlying the expression of transsexuality - differences involving the elusive casual algorithms of individual experience, personality, biology and culture. Scientists working in this area have made considerable progress, but much remains a mystery. Fortunately, the past decade or so has seen transsexuals increasingly "coming out of the closet" as a sexual minority. There was an equally sharp increase in clinic referred adolescents with gender identity disorder starting in 2004, which is still rising. This dramatic spike may be the result of the destigmatizing influence of media exposure. Movie such as Boys Don't Cry (1999) and Transamerica (2005) offer sympathetic portrayals of transsexuals, and the subject of childhood gender identity disorder has been featured in the New York Times, on ABC's 20/20 and on the Oprah Winfrey Show.

As transsexuals continue to become more open about their experiences, scientists are realizing that cross-gender behavior is not only a fascinating expression of human variation but also a richly informative area for studying the subtlest vagaries of sexuality. Like no other aspect of our nature, trassexuality is where biology, gender and sexual orientation meet - and, as we have seen, often part ways.


"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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