Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Women and body image: a man's perspective

Started by rejennyrated, May 23, 2010, 04:02:42 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rejennyrated

Today in the Daily Telegraph they printed an insightful piece on the difference in attitudes to body image between men and women. For me it shed interesting light on some of the perfectionist attitudes that many here seem to have.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/stellamagazine/7725736/Women-and-body-image-a-mans-perspective.html

Women and body image: a man's perspective.

Ever wondered why a man can look at an advert featuring a six-pack and laugh, while a woman might look at a photograph of female perfection and fall to pieces? William Leith thinks he might have uncovered the answer
  •  

jesse

like a knife that cuts you the wound heals but them scars those scars remain
  •  

rejennyrated

Isn't it just! So transwomen who are demanding aesthetic perfection aren't being difficult - they are just reacting in a totally typical female way. They simply bought into the programming! I have sooooo done that not going to a party because I didn't feel I looked good thing.

Interestingly as I have aged I seem to have managed to break out. I now have a more gender neutral attitude towards attractiveness - not yet as relaxed as a man, but not quite as perfectionist as a woman either, but maybe that is just what happens as we get a little older! We become less susceptible to social and biological pressures to perform.
  •  

spacial

It's an interesting article. Very Telegraph though.

It attempted to rehash selective parts of the human origin. Men natrually join peer groups to hunt, but more importantly, to position themselves relative to other men and ultimately to the alpha male.

Women naturally remain at camp, building nests and seeking to be available to the Alpha or failing that to choose a lesser.

The feminists hate this fundimental reality, of course.

The weight issue however is really quite different.

Up to the 60s, diseases associated with diet were very rare. Most people who developed one of these ended up in a long stay institution.

I recall, around 1970, there was a pop group made up of two girl singers and I think two or three male backers. Anyway, one of the girls was said to have become fat and risked losing her place. She ended up with some terrible wasting disease. Drs said it was all psychological. I recall a photo which appeared in a newspaper of this woman being take on a streacher to an airplane to get treatment in the US. What happened next I don't remember.

By the end of the 70s, that disease had a name, Anorexia Neverosa. It was all the talk in the press. A plague which could kill thousands. Wanna loose weight girls? try this new diet. Celeb lets herself go and loses her man. 

I knew a young girl in 1979 who developed it. She ended up in a specialist unit of the psychiatric hospital being continually visited by consultants and students who were really only interested in seeing this unusual disease.

She had the classic background. Overbearing parents, quite old. Immature. Few friends. Pretty but no dress sense.

By the start of the 90s, there were entire hospital wings occupied only by these kids. I worked in one briefly. I didn't normally work with children. They require specialit training and skills which I don't have. But all of these kids were basically similar. The girls, even into their early 20s exhibited traces of a personality more associated with eight year old girls. Clingy, overly fresh and friendly with adult men. The boys were reminiscent of very spoilt five year olds. Temper tantrums, provakative behaviours, such as spitting at you and such.

By the start of the century, there are hospitals dedicated to these children.

I apologise if this seems to be rather missing the point. I suggest it is exactly the point. Our society is demanding perfection from everyone. Perfection has become normality.

Men look at images of these scantly clad women so their wives and girl friends will see that and become insecure. Divorce is so easy, no woman can ever feel secure. She must contunially work to meet the standards of these pornographic images or risk being cast aside.

yet still, or health authorities push message that losing weight is somehow healthy. They define and redefine over weight. Anything less than perfection is not just unhealthy, it is socially wrong.

Where this goes next will be interesting.
  •  

brainiac

The evolutionary psychology in this reeks of... a certain type of bovine manure to me, but then again, it is inherently un-empirical so I'm fussy about it.

But as someone who has grown up female-bodied and presenting as female, I have to say that a lot of this does ring true with me. Not exactly the breakdown stuff, but more the intense pressure and the message that you need to be perfectly beautiful (which means what?) to be successful. Men are certainly objectified, of course (war is reeeeeeeally good at that), but I think that women tend to be sexually objectified in a rather different way-- what they were touching on with the "thousand years of being portrayed" thing is this recurring theme: women are supposed to be the objects and men are supposed to be the subjects, and that's how it's always been.
  •  

spacial

I'll accept your doubts about the social development of humans.

It's a non-argument for me I'm afraid. I spent quite some time studying it in the early and mid 70s, then continually testing it whenever I can since and it seems to fit .

I also understand your feelings about women bening objects while men are subjects. That, I'm sorry to have to say, in terms of human evolutionary psychology, is a reality.

Women build nests, they attract the best mate they can and they have babies.

Men join peer groups, they hunt and position themselves as near to the alpha as they can.

My own objective was to find a postulate to explain the position of homosexuals and Transgendered people in this scheme. (Though, at the time, I didn't know what transgendered was and considered myself as just being weird).

I think I achieved that. Hence the tendency to bore the rest of you by continual references.  :D

But I am as near to being certain as I think I can be,
  •  

Miniar

Also, Men don't just laugh off the sixpack.
It affects us.
Cisgender or not.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
  •  

kyril

Quote from: Miniar on May 24, 2010, 09:57:45 AM
Also, Men don't just laugh off the sixpack.
It affects us.
Cisgender or not.
This. What the article doesn't acknowledge is that men are under a tremendous amount of pressure to keep up a different kind of appearance - the appearance of not caring. While, of course, still being reasonably fit and attractive.

While it may be true that we are utterly baffled by how to respond to women's body image issues, it's not necessarily true that we don't understand them or have our own. Gay men in particular, being sexually objectified by other men, have a whole complex about it - but straight guys aren't immune either. It's just that men are expected to have a "fix it or forget it" attitude, so that's what we do, and we don't necessarily have any idea how to talk to women about it because they deal with it in a completely different way that we don't understand.


  •  

placeholdername

Maybe it's a recent thing, but I've had numerous male friends who have body insecurity.  I think the difference is that sort of the 'acceptable as fit/attractive' range is much narrower for women than it is for men.  But for the men who fall outside of that range, the effect is pretty similar to women in the same position.
  •  

barbie

The article seems efficient in delivering contrasts between men and women, but we know very well that it's a kind of spectrum, too diverse in the real world. For example, jealousy exists for both men and women. Probably women tend to be more jealous with respect to their appearance, but men also feel the same way in some degree.

Oh. One thing certain is that they are mostly women who study carefully my appearance when I am in female mode. In occasional cases, they stare at me for > 30 seconds. When I am male mode, no so many people watch me: they just glance at me.

Barbie~~
Just do it.
  • skype:barbie?call
  •  

pretty pauline

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 23, 2010, 04:21:37 AM
So transwomen who are demanding aesthetic perfection aren't being difficult - they are just reacting in a totally typical female way. They simply bought into the programming! I have sooooo done that not going to a party because I didn't feel I looked good thing.

You are so right there, myself and boyfriend are getting married in August, but I'II probably feel the pressure more than Him, infact Im feeling it already and its 3months away, he'll hire a suit, if he doesn't get a new pair of shoes nobody will even notice, no effort needed.
But me being the blushing bride it will be completely different, all the attention will be on me, its 1day I will have to make a very big effort with the help and advice of my bridemaid, my dress has to be perfect, I'II probably get a hair stylist to do my hair, bridemaid has already booked a makeup artist (without even asking me lol) to do my makeup and false tan, nails hair and makeup, not forgetting flowers, all pressure to look gorgeous and beautiful on the day, men only see and want results, they don't see the stress and sheer hard work a girl has to go thru just to be a woman and to look pretty and beautiful for everybody else, but then on the day if I get nice complements, well what can I say, as you said yourself Jenny, yes ''Iv bought into the programming'' Im just reacting in a totally typical female way, as my boyfriend would say thats WOMEN for you, oh well, but I still love being a woman.
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
  •  

Janet_Girl

my ex and I would always wonder why it is the all the female models are these skinny little things, when 'real' women have curves.  And it is all because of the hype of looking 'perfect'.

And yes I am being to 'buy into' the programming, at 56.  But it is more for me, than a potential mate.  And I think it is part of the second puberty.  I know my mind react as I think a young teen girl would react.  At least this teen girl.

I still would like the perfect hips and behind, for me.
  •  

Silver

I'm mixed here. Other than obviously female characteristics (which I definitely bother me greatly) I don't care all that much. That's just because I'm young and attractive though, we'll see how I am in the future.

Women do seem pretty preoccupied with their appearance though. Sometimes it seems ridiculous.
  •  

dyssonance

When evo psych stops relying on stereotypes, things like this might have more merit.  As it is, it furthers certain sexist ideas.

But, anecdotally and often experientially, it certainly "feels" right.
Thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunky world, make, each of us, one non-flunky, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Thomas Carlyle)
  •  

brainiac

Quote from: dyssonance on May 24, 2010, 07:20:50 PM
When evo psych stops relying on stereotypes, things like this might have more merit.  As it is, it furthers certain sexist ideas.

But, anecdotally and often experientially, it certainly "feels" right.
I agree.

The biggest problem I have with evo psych is that the vast majority of it isn't empirical. The hypotheses that it posits are not testable. All it does is make up stories to explain the way people are today (not even the way people actually are, but stereotypes) with information that we have no direct access to (the way our ancestors behaved). And it's reported in terrible, unscientific ways. I'm fine with research that suggests that females tend to have better verbal skills than comparable males and males tend to have better spatial reasoning skills than comparable females. That is different than saying "men are better at navigating than women because they had to hunt in prehistoric times". You can guess at WHY we see these results, but you can't actually provide evidence for why.

Not to mention the fact that not all behaviors are genetically transmitted, and a different environment has monumental effects on the human brain. When will people finally get it that nature AND nurture make us what we are?
  •  

dyssonance

Not to mention that evo psych is what underlies the whole "trans aren't real" arguments of the blank born blank sorts...
Thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunky world, make, each of us, one non-flunky, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Thomas Carlyle)
  •  

pretty pauline

Quote from: SilverFang on May 24, 2010, 06:25:17 PM

Women do seem pretty preoccupied with their appearance though. Sometimes it seems ridiculous.
That is so so typical how a guy thinks, you sound just like my brother lol!! yes Im am very much preoccupied with my appearance, every woman I know is preoccupied with something on appearance, my boyfriend sister wears fake nails, now I don't need fake nails, but I get manicures, Im preoccupied with my hair, if my boyfriend knew what I spend on my hair, he'd probably have a heart attack, maintenance shampoo, conditioner, perms, highlights, hair color every 6weeks, touch up color 3weeks, lots of setting hair spray, if I was to go out with my hair in a mess Id be mortified, expensive and thats just my hair.
Makeup, well a good size of my budget goes on beauty products, foundation, powder, lipsticks lip gloss, eye liners, creams for this and creams for that, anti ageing lol, boyfriend doesn't know the half of it, what he doesn't know will never hurt, it not ridiculous, it may seem ridiculous from a guy's point of view, guys just don't understand.
Yet when my boyfriend tells me on a Saturday night ''honey you look a million dollars'' it leaves me glowing, all the hard work, time and effort to be told, you look beautiful, gorgeous and pretty, its a lovely feminine feeling, maybe its a girl thing, guys just don't understand that, its ridiculous according to a guy
p
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
  •  

spacial

#17
Quote from: brainiac on May 24, 2010, 08:18:26 PM
I agree.

The biggest problem I have with evo psych is that the vast majority of it isn't empirical. The hypotheses that it posits are not testable. All it does is make up stories to explain the way people are today (not even the way people actually are, but stereotypes) with information that we have no direct access to (the way our ancestors behaved). And it's reported in terrible, unscientific ways. I'm fine with research that suggests that females tend to have better verbal skills than comparable males and males tend to have better spatial reasoning skills than comparable females. That is different than saying "men are better at navigating than women because they had to hunt in prehistoric times". You can guess at WHY we see these results, but you can't actually provide evidence for why.

Not to mention the fact that not all behaviors are genetically transmitted, and a different environment has monumental effects on the human brain. When will people finally get it that nature AND nurture make us what we are?

I now understand your problem which you highlighted in #4.

I am attempting to write a rationale behind my references to human social evolution. It is going to take some time. And, surprise, surprise, it will be really long.

I will post it for your critial repost as soon as I can
.

I'm sorry, after a lot of thought, I've decided I'm not prepared to do this
  •  

dyssonance

Spacial, that's why I kept my comments really brief, and really short.

Some days, it's just not worth it.

(and I say that with the notation that, ultimately, I disagree with evo psych in general)
Thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunky world, make, each of us, one non-flunky, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Thomas Carlyle)
  •  

accord03

This is very true and we do not understand why women would go through all this effort to look good. Plus, if you've already got a man why the effort to impress others? If he says you're beautiful then thats that. Why does my GF spend $90 on this little foundation compact thingy, when she could just buy a NEW PS3 game for me. Lol. I've noticed that women cares about their image no matter how old are they.
  •