Meh, I probably wouldn't do it. Hurts my ego to claim to be female myself for whatever reason. That's just me though, to each his own.

Personally, I'd have given him the money and said "Too bad I'm actually a man  ".

But that's my personal pride. I wouldn't be able to tolerate being seen as female - even if it were to my "advantage". I wouldn't feel right taking both male and female privilege.

I'm just the kinda guy that checks "Male" on job applications that state "Women encouraged to apply" .

That said, I don't hold anything against anyone that does. To each their own.

I just figure It isn't worth arguing about their misconception in a bar. I didn't when it went the other way either.

It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

We already had this debate before. Integrity is subjective.

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 08:52:44 AM
We already had this debate before. Integrity is subjective.

Lol! Thats exactly what someone without integrity would say! Rofl

To be serious though:

Integrity isn't subjective. Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcomes. The only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved. Think about that the next time you say "I'm a man" and the next time it would be easier or more beneficial to let people think you are a woman.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 09:09:29 AMThe only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved.

Then it's subjective based on that alone, which is what I'm getting at. Everyone has a different idea or exceptions as to how they want to be accepted in this world. Not all of them are offended by the same treatment.

To me, they shouldn't even be doing free drinks or reducing it based on what's between your legs. If that's what they want to treat me like, then their loss.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

So, does that mean my whole life up until transition was without integrity?  That the whole in-between phase where I was read as F, and my legal ID pegged me as F, I was without integrity if I used the ladies' room?

We already deny ourselves so much, as does society.  I fail to see how a pre-transition transperson is abusing any system or lacks integrity by taking advantage of something offered their birth sex when visually and legally they still look like their birth sex.


Jay

But he says he's living his life as a male for the past few years now Jay, thats the difference. I asked my room mate for his opinion (he's ftm) and he said:

"I am a guy and why would i even want to be acknowledged as female??  I find it weird.  Are you or are you not  male??"

Thats where I stand too. He asked for our opinions and I've given mine and my reasons for them. If you guys disagree then more power to you but I would not be comfortible trying to pass as a guy to recieve male privilige no matter how much easier that would make my life thanks. I'd rather be treated like a man in a dress then be treated like a man.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 09:50:41 AMI'd rather be treated like a man in a dress then be treated like a man.

That's not much of a difference...

Personally I wouldn't take advantage of it. Mainly cause I can't stand the thought of anyone seeing me anything except male. I've denied housing when I was homeless in a shelter on the basis that I knew I was male, and wouldn't put up with being housed with females. That's how stubborn I am.

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 09:58:47 AM
That's not much of a difference...

Wow! If thats what you really think then that is sad. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 10:14:23 AM
Wow! If thats what you really think then that is sad. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

If people just see you as a man in a dress, they're not going to think that you're female or have a female identity.

Personally (my opinion only), when I was pre-everything, I was still F.  Even though I was presenting as male, everyone else in the world read me as F.  That, to me, is not really living as male.  Living as male means your ID is male.  If you are pre-everything and your ID says MALE, yet you are read as F, then by all means correct people.  But if you go around public spaces and into businesses, you can declare you are male, but if your ID says F, it will out you, and thus,  you are not recognized as male in society.  Period.  Sux but saying you're male and actually being legally male are two different things.

That in-between stage sux big time.  Been there, done that, hated it.  And if the world was only going to recognize me as F, because I looked F, and had ID that said I was F, then me claiming to be male wasn't going to change anyone's mind at all.


We can agree to disagree.  I see no problem with the OP taking a free drink because his ID says F.


Jay

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 10:16:10 AM
If people just see you as a man in a dress, they're not going to think that you're female or have a female identity.

I agree, and if a person is seen as a man in a dress they still might get a lot of the benefits that men/people passing as male get.

For me, it wasn't even as if I tried to be more female/feminine than I am. I'm just read as a masculine woman the overwhelming majority of the time.

I say screw society. Even though my gender marker isn't changed yet (which I'm getting that paperwork filled out in two weeks), I still correct people, even doctors, when they get it wrong. It's not my fault that they're not in my world and don't see me as male.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 02, 2010, 11:11:55 AM
I agree, and if a person is seen as a man in a dress they still might get a lot of the benefits that men/people passing as male get.

I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 01, 2010, 08:53:02 PM
Is it necessarily a bad thing to take advantage of things typically reserved to women?

I expect that this post will inspire a great deal of unnecessary pathos, but the question calls for an honest answer.  I hope that this response will serve to provide some practical benefit to you.

Regardless of what moral or legal justifications or valuations are crafted to underlie the practice, womanhood is legally and socially defined to men as privilege.  Whether from government programs, employment laws, quotas, media attention, drinks and meals, college admissions, or even homeless shelters, women may choose to avail themselves of what men provide.  By the pretense of victimhood and pseudo-academic language ('-ism,' 'system,' and 'society' are my personal favorites), and by the use of legally and socially enforced speech codes, women may choose to deny accountability.  To use your sex to gain what you did not earn, or to portray yourself as a victim above reproach, is to publicly and explicitly endorse your womanhood.

If I knew a young person who claimed to be male and then deliberately availed herself of female privilege, I would take that as a public declaration that she nevertheless considers herself to be a woman.

That having been said, I agree that any transman probably deserves a free drink.  The bars don't offer them, though.

- N

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

What's there to get? You made a contradictory statement. I'm not attacking your opinion or your stance, but what you're saying isn't helping your argument.

You said you'd rather be seen as a man in a dress than as a man, but that's still being seen as a man. If someone sees you as a guy no matter what you wear, they're going to treat you as one. The dress is irrelevant because they see you as a guy, period.

It's not that you are a guy, because obviously you aren't, but the statement doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't be treated differently. If you pass and/or if you are seen as someone with a female gender identity, then you aren't seen as some man in a dress and therefore people treat you as a woman socially.

If you have a female gender identity, then you are not some man in a dress. The problem is, not everyone passes and doesn't realize that.

I don't pass. I identify as male and have for a few years now, but I know at a single glance I'm read as female. If someone offered me a cheapo drink on ladies night I would roll my eyes, but take it, figuring it's the world's little way of making up for all the Ma'ams I've had to deal with all day. I would laugh it off later and call it a day.

If I passed even a fraction of the time, however, I probably would have corrected him.

Then again, I don't even drink and don't think there's a special day where they give a discount to people with vajayjays for cups of icewater. I spose my point is moot.

Boo.