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Types of Androgyne?

Started by Vanessa V., November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM

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Vanessa V.

Hehe, after reading all these amazingly intellectual posts by Madison, Laurie, and Kendra, I figured I needed to throw some of my opinions into the ring!  ;)  :P

One issue that I has always sorta fascinated me in the contemplation of my own androgynous existence, especially within these forums, is the different types of androgyny present here.

If there wasn't already enough divisions in the world!

There has been something bugging me ever since I checked into these forums, and I think I may have stumbled upon some answers in the very helpful "What is an Androgyne?" sticky on the top of our forum. After reading it again with what was bugging me in mind, I managed to come to certain revelations...

Its this concept of gender-splicing that has been weighing on my mind as of late. Call me crazy, and maybe this means I'm not truly androgynous, I dunno, but the visual figure of one person having both very auspicious male and female aspects to them is not appealing. To see a muscular male form in a skirt, or someone with a beard in a dress creates a tremendous amount of dissonance in my head. Not dissonance as in condemning or misunderstanding their lifestyle, but dissonance as in something is not right. Its like someone is forcefully combining two things that do not (or maybe even cannot?) go together.

In my life, I've always regarded my male and female energies, and male and female selves as two totally different entities. On one hand, there was the male me, traditionalist, control oriented, competitive and on the entirely separate other hand was the female me, nurturing, beautiful, sensual. Both exist and vie almost for influence on how I construct my existence. I am tempted to make analysis to id and superego, if only by the sheer amount of comparisons that exist between them. And the me people see is the ego that comes out in the end.

Like most androgynes, I would rather be female, but am perfectly happy living as a male. I understand fully the benefits both genders give, and I take pains to capitalize on their unique and interesting advantages. Gender becomes a very fluid continuum, a very much so a Pink and Blue Ying and Yang, as Kendra discussed in her thread.

But I see the Ying/Yang a little different than some. Though intertwined, each side is distinct and separate. The blue is on one side, and the pink on the other. They are intimate and together, but decidedly unmixed. That is how I live my androgyny, two competing and pure gender forces engaged in dialectic, rather than combining to form one uniform set of both. While the synthesis from my dialectic is also a blend in some ways, I consider it more as a mosaic (with parts of genders aligned just so) rather than it being the creation of a distinctly new gender dynamic in itself.

(***It is also highly likely that there are two standards at work in my life, one dictating how my thoughts and actions appear, and the other dictating how I present myself in the physical world. Truly physical examples, like a man in a dress with a beard, are definitely easier to grasp and contemplate than my own personality. I shall have to meditate about such things.)

Its my wonder, now relating back to the topic, if those people that like to blend or create their appearances by deliberately placing disparate gender elements together could be classified as "third gender" androgynes, whereas people like myself who believe that the genders should not be mixed but rather (excuse the phrase) "separate but equal" are more "bi-gender" androgynes. (ref: What is an Androgyne Sticky).

I know many people that would then be classified as third-gender in this forum. Just curious if anyone out there felt the same way I do, as well as what the "third-gender" androgynes have to say about this idea!

I suppose it comes back to the old saying of "Know Thyself"...

And the big question of the day for me is as follows...

My personality is a mix of both male and female genders...

Does that make me a feminine man?

Or does that make me something else entirely?


Does the Gendered System exist above our own, as some sort of Aristotelian Form almost?

Or can we create a system outside of it?

And if we do, what makes it distinct, versus merely an amalgamation of constituent parts?

Is a machine mightier than the parts used to create it?



Definite Brain Food to be sure...

Everyone here is impressively academic, I look forward to see what your thoughts on this conundrum are...

Thanks for reading! :)

-Nessa
  •  

Mia and Marq

Nessa,

Again I am just so pleased to find someone that considers themself a bi-gendered individual. If you haven't had a chance to read my story, I would suggest you take a glimpse to maybe find some similarities.

My take on androgyne is similar to that which you have stated. I make no effort to attempt to mix the female and male parts within me, treating them as very seperate personas. They act with their own interests to influence the life I live, in many cases opposing each other. One might say "well are you conflicted inside", a little but good conflict within makes for a balanced person overall as in the example of Ying and Yang, Id and Ego, etc..

I think that in my day to day adventures my two sides both come out equally, but people don't even notice because they can't really get past my physical appearance. I know though my female influence is felt because a lot of females are drawn to me for friendship because they can feel in my personality that femininity even if they don't notice it. As far as which one I prefer, neither. I'm not capable of playing favorites. Which side gets recognized more often, obviously the male side. He's more aggressive, competitive, and outgoing, as well as physically looking like a male. It balances out though in the end because the female side though not recognized as much still influences in more subtle ways.

I appreciate you making this post. It again allowed me to share with someone who feels as I do, who can also relate to my situation. Please read my story when you get a chance. I'm sure you'll be amused with my path to realization.

And actually on a humorous side note, I suspect that everyone else thinks I'm crazy the way I talk in plurals all the time(I've reframed temporarily for this post so as to not scare you away) but when I want to describe the thoughts of one side its hard to avoid.

To answer some of your questions, I would not consider your situation an example of a feminine man. It holds a bit of negative conotation for me honestly. Maybe more a balanced man. Most all males are unbalanced, and you should appreciate that you're covering the scale.

Well feel free to PM all you want. I'm happy to talk, we're happy to talk.(Couldn't resist)

-Us
Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides
  •  

Simone

I wish to say something too if i may.

My awakening to what is happening in me since conversing with others here is also slowly getting me to what i feel i hold.

I have a very definate female side/concience that almost reaches out sensually to life. I have such a love for what is femme that i almost ache to be that. Bt not at any risk to my male side. I hold that sacred too. I would not shed what i am now. I , as i have expressed to many sencere listeners here...just wish that if i could start life anew....from my mothers womb as a female...i think i would take that choice. I do not hate being male. No, i share that with my female side and see it as a compliment to my character. Besides, i would not be me...Simone.

I have enjoyed your thread and i do maybe see myself slotting into what you and Marq/Mia describe. It seems to fit.

Thanx.x.x.Simone.
  •  

Kendall

To me this is how it is... for me.
In from age 14 to age 22 (1997) I kept things rigidly seperate. There was a male side to me, then a separate female side.  The feminine side of me only came out  emotionally, sometimes socially, and appearance wise only when I was alone. At age 22 I started to break down. Thats when I approached the psychologist councillor at my university the first time. I myself could no longer stand keeping that part of me hidden to everyone. I no longer wanted to keep them seperate and hidden from others. Because I felt both were good, and both are a part of me.

It took me from 1996 to 2004 to get up the nerve to actually do anything. About 8 years. First I wanted my nails longer (I would have grown out hair had I not had thinned hair). I stopped biting my nails instantly (which I had always bitten my nails to hide any length). I haven't bitten a nail since that day. I started to learn some cosmetology, since I knew absolutely nothing on makeup and style. Then a year later I got my ears pierced that I always wanted. I started to tell people about myself for the first time in my life. I then tried to interject small things into my appearance such as small amounts of makeup (mascara , foundation) wearing earrings, then feminine colors of clothing, shaping eyebrows. I am not trying to destroy my male side of me, but add the feminine things that I really like.

I still have moments that I like to dress up fully girl mode, but those times are fewer and fewer between now. I think as I have added more stuff to my day to day life, the splurges have deminished. I do feel some self-esteem about myself, which didnt exist before.

Androgynes are a variety, and there is no strict rules of being one, except that you recognize the male and female within you (gender) or dont have a gender (neither). Physical appearance is something that many androgynes do (clothing, makeup, hair, nails), but not all. And some even go through physical alterations, though just very few. But first and foremost is the acceptance of something more than the polar genders (accepting more a mix or spectrum).

I once kept my fem and male entirely seperate though.
  •  

madison

Vanessa you bring up so many good topics of discussion.

It seems worthy to note that while spending an immense amount of time examining concepts of gender, in my idyllic world, I'd rather not spend another second thinking about it all. Even through all the doubt and questioning, I was not struggling with myself per se, I was struggling with the implications of those parts of myself that did not conform to cultural norms. It is only in an effort to manifest even a rarified understanding of gender that I can consider normative that I persist in these intellectual explorations. Because as in the HyTran example from the Poll, "How many genders are there," I believe that while not needing to conform to every aspect of social expectation, I do believe that I have an obligation to participate in society and work with others to make myself understandable.

Despite the importance and convenience of labels, part of their limitation stems from no label can ever cover it all. And if you have enough labels to cover it all, then you reach a point of diminishing returns, and it becomes difficult to decide how many labels apply to any one thing. Thus broad is good, but some ability to make further distinctions is still necessary.

You say you don't feel comfortable with blended notions of gender. And I must admit it is far more difficult to accept juxtapositions such as a bearded man in a dress. As I have also mentioned in another post, symbols hold meaning, partially from the meaning we personally apply to them, and I would dare say, mostly from the culture where that symbol is being defined. It is based on this logic, that while I don't feel a masculine form in a dress is inherently dissonant, not attempting to at least defer, or allude, to the other conventions that normally accompany one in a dress, in western culture especially, only exacerbates any potential dissonance. Not to say that the bearded man in a dress is wrong, but that the bearded man in a dress might experience more social rejection, than a man who at least shaved and was extremely well groomed. (Of course intention is so important to discussions like these and merely assume for simplicities sake that we are discussing gender issues where the person feels some kind of gender dysphoria and for all intents and purposes is attempting to be, without ulterior motive).

Gender appropriate appearance and behavior has unquestionably shifted and morphed through time and civilization. The upper-class dandy, or fop, of the 18th-19th century, much like the modern metrosexual male, place uncharacteristic attention towards style and refinement in behavior when compared to the idea of the American male through the 20th century. The dandy and the metro-sexual male could easily be defined, and often are by some, as effeminate or even queer. What I find so interesting and potentially ironic about the dandy era, is that someone like myself might have been completely at home and comfortable, while the more manly man stuck in that era and social class was being forced to endure styles and behavior that found dissonant with their own sense of being. Tables turned as it were.

Vanessa, for me the concept of bi-gender seems dissonant. The idea of separately maintaining some kind of dual co-existence with another entity within is too complex, troubling, and difficult for me to entertain. That is exactly why the idea of cross dressing, as in trying to pass with or without prosthetic aids, makes no sense in my personal existence based on the person that I have become.

Instead for me, the idea of melding, blending, and expressing my true self stems from the earnest belief that their is one person inside who is without need for gender understanding. Yet as I previously stated, I still believe I have an obligation to interact with society, and quite frankly, society wants some answers! Instead I have been trying to understand how the symbols that I am attracted to somehow enhance who I am. And as I understand them better I try to refine them to bring them in line with what makes sense for the time and place where I live. This seems paramount for me, because, none of us can escape that our worldview is inescably formed in part by the culture we live in.

Thus, when seeking more feminine styles, fashion, and accessories to incorporate in my life, I honestly ask myself if that outfit looks good on ME, with my body shape, with my level of fitness, with my natural hair. For example, while I might find a particular piece of jewlery to be the most beautiful thing I've seen, if on me it does not accentuate and look like it might actually belong there, then I would not wear it. This is so easily seen in certain outfits. I may see a blouse that looks like the cutest most comfortable thing ever, but it is obviously made to accomodate and enhance breasts that I don't have, and similarly must recognize that however much I try, without wanting to appear as a woman, that blouse will never enhance or make sense on me. I may be able to recognize that it will be dissonant to many at first, as any one who has cross dressed publicly before, the people around you quickly get used to it, whether or not they are entirely comfortable with it. And I suggest that if more people cross dressed publicly, society would simply get used to it, as can be seen in the transition from women not be able to wear pants in 50's USA to women cross dressing as de facto standard today.

It was stated once, that androgynes are not transtioning, but I offer that my very existence is proof of a type of transition. I am attempting to transition to a recognizable representation of how I feel. It is not physical, but there is a definite mental transition happening to make space for an androgynous concept that has been entirely left out of my culture, but has existed elsewhere. It makes sense to me to as you say, "gender-splice." But only because my culture has left me no alternative.

Regarding the Yin-Yang symbol, it is true that literally speaking the two halves are separate. Inside each half however, we find a piece of the other, and for me this opens a whole other opportunity for interpretive meaning, which I will leave to your mediations. :)

Considering the idea of a third gender is something that has not been adequately explored. And I offer another thought experiment for illustration. The journey of a transexual is that from birth-sex to the opposite sex, in an effort to match the body with the spirit. Given that there is, beyond question, a third SEX, the intersexed aka the hermaphrodite, is it not possible or even necessary for some of us to take that journey from our birth-sex to intersexed?

(Note: I'm only just now considering this for the first time. And while you could think me being flippant or exaggerating to make a point, it really makes me wonder.)

So perhaps their really is a transition to be made for the androgyne. And androgyne being little more than a descriptor of that inbetween state until such time as the physical matches the spirit. Just something to consider.

When you speak of having within you a mix of male and female gender, and ask if that makes you a feminized man, I would suggest that, if you can consider a life outside of a bi-gender dichtomy, the better thing to ask is if you are an androgynized man? Actually and honestly neither man or woman, but actually androgynous, without any accepted method or mental space to even comprehend.

As some transexuals might feel a spiritual emotional gap between them and androgynes, I too feel a spiritual gap between myself and the concept of bi-gender. However, I am trying to remember that we grew up with a gender dichotomy. That everything we know of the world was taught to us using somewhat arbitrary and evolving classification schemes. We all recieved an immense amount of programming before our minds were advanced enough to consider the implications. How and why I find comfort from our like issues, may be a direct result of that programming and how I got here to the moment where I am addressing these issues.

Had I grown up in a liberal and encouraging environment, where no topic was truly taboo, and I felt loved and safe without fear of judgement, when these issues of gender first entered my mind, maybe I would learned more early on that I would have desired the body of a woman. But I didn't have that environment, and I spent my life as the man that I am, making decisions based in part on that early programming, and now transexuality is no longer a valid option to me. And I am suggesting that all of these gender issues come down to a choice, that we are all making choices, transexual, androgyne, cross dressers. We are making a choice for how we deal with something that most of us don't feel like was a choice in the first place. Rather we are making choices to deal with a cruel lack of choice played on us by nature. And we make that choice based on mental, emotional, social, economic, spiritual, and philosophical personal realities, weighing out benefit with implication and consequence.

On one last note, I would like to make it known that I do not feel as though I have the answers, that it all makes sense, and that I have the way to salvation, far from it. And moreover, I do not feel as though any of you do either. That is the point of these dialogs, to live and grow, and experience truth for the beautiful fluid thing that it is. Humans use words and symbols to communicate and do more than simply survive. Human vagaries of what life is, what life means, and how we should do it will likely always be changing, and we will never truly know all. But what we can do in the meantime, is have a hell of a lot of fun pondering it, and trying to make this brief stint as comfortable and pleasant as possible.

These discussions are a chance for us to learn how and why people make different decisions from us, and whether those other decisions had outcomes that we might find more favorable in our own lives. Thank you all for sharing and growing with me.
  •  

Vanessa V.

#5
I must admit Madison, the moment I read your style of writing, I fell in love with it. Its so perfectly academic that I'm compelled to engage your dialogue, even if only for the pure faith that I really believe something meaningful might come out of it. The quality of posting on these boards, and especially in Androgyne, is so sophisticated, I am tempted to proclaim an Androgynous Renaissance!

A few points that struck me in reading your response. A huge strength of your worldview is its pragmatism, and I think it gains a huge amount of appeal and stability through it. You mention that two have co-existances seems dissonant, and frankly I'm inclined to agree! Although I do fall, I believe, solidly under the concept of Bi-Gender and experience much of the same things Marq/Mia mentions, purely rationally, I'm frightened at the instability it introduces. I personally am extremely hesitant to recognize my female side as its own independent autonomous entity, as I feel it could open wide the doors for a more malignant form of multiple personality disorder. Since discussing this issue, the idea has been on my head for almost the whole day, and it is existing in a very dynamic state at the moment. I am tempted to consider what I feel as different avatars or spirits of one dynamic soul. I am also tempted to consider what would be considered my female entity as necessarily benevolent, and therefore no threat to my existance. I am finally tempted to slave both of them under a higher logical reason, and then continue to keep the control within my conscious bounds.

Ultimately, I do believe its far more objectivelty rational to be one blended person than two opposing ones, but that sadly does little I'm afraid to remedy my situation! :P Its as if blending my situation satisfies no-one. If I were to dress in both male and female elements, my masculine side would feel silly and my feminine side unsatisfied. Either be happy as a male or as a female.

Which leads me to this quote from Madison, the one that I feel perfectly categorizes the problem that may exist here...

QuoteWhen you speak of having within you a mix of male and female gender, and ask if that makes you a feminized man, I would suggest that, if you can consider a life outside of a bi-gender dichtomy, the better thing to ask is if you are an androgynized man? Actually and honestly neither man or woman, but actually androgynous, without any accepted method or mental space to even comprehend.

And my answer is no, I cannot even imagine a situation outside of a bi-gendered dichtomy. To actually make that step and strip away gender from everythig is virtually unfathomable for me.

The key issue at stake here is about the nature of gender, especially as it relates to the androgynous community, we who take the idea and stretch it to its limits. Theoretically, the idea of bigender accepts the gender norms at the very least at the conceptual level. There are certain things that are inherently male, and those inherently female. I myself have always had problems with this. For me, ambition is a decidedly male concept. And although I am fully well aware that females are oftentimes more ambitious than men, for some reason I can't seperate masculinity from ambition. Just as I can't seperate feminity from nurturing and beauty. The list of course, can go on and on.

I am well aware of the practical difficulties of this stance. It almost becomes self defeating, as what all androgynes want is a destruction of current gender norms. Even from a bigendered stance, I would like to be accepted, and wear the clothes that I would like and act the way I would want without inviting criticism and scorn. All of us want that. Yet how can I expect any change if I do nothing but accept and reify these expectations! Only mixed/third gendered Androgynes can actually do the gritty work of breaking down gender norms. By showing that a skirt is not inherently a symbol of femininity by clearly contrasting it with masculine elements! Though not particularly a "third/mixed" gender androgyne, I can image that for these people, they must be blessed with the ability to see gender norms as more transitive than I can.

However, if these kind of relationship holds true (where bigenders cannot escape the norms and mixed genders can) it becomes almost reasonable to see how people that are Androgyne would then categorize themselves as bigendered. Could it be that an androgyne's whole outlook revolves around how (s)he views gender? If gender norms are fixed and above human control, then feminine feelings, wants, and desires would be amalgamated and crystalized into a second entity... as looking at yourself as a whole doesn't make sense, or is (under their definition) untrue. Wheread for those who don't believe the norms are fixed, it becomes far easier, and even logical to view yourself as one. There is no contradiction, there is no problem, you are just you.

This of course allows the discussion to taper down to if gender norms really are immutable or not...

Haha, I have more to say on this, especially since I'm on a roll, but I'm curious what all has to be said about this much so far. Am I making sense? Do you agree with me Marq/Mia?

I really am a big fan of Androgyne unity... I think in the world such as we have, we need to come together now more than ever to secure ourselves and fight for our cause. I'm just trying to find where my best fit lies. And like Madison said, the best way to learn things about ourselves, our situations, and others is through creative and civil discourse like we are having now. I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts! :)

-Nessa
  •  

Kendall

#6
Androgyny need not shock everyone. Lets take AFI's lead singer Davey Havok a style that I fascinates me. Women love him. He certainly is not isolate himself from the world. He may get some "He is gay" from some of the men ,who find feminine images in someway threatening to their own masculinity. To be demasculinized is by some, a defeat. Certainly he is no bearded man in a dress, yet he expresses a unique feminine style :hair, eyelashes, makeup, eyebrows, earrings, and even a little in how he dresses sometimes. He certainly has intermingled public both female and male attributes.

The idea that a man with a beard, in a dress does not convey the message that the individual is silly nor unsatisfied (though I gather you are saying for you such might be how you feel) though from the post I gather you havent experienced such action ever. Such belief however underlines the very problem all transgender must face, either direct or indirect, in their lives every day. The intolerance for people that break the gender boundaries vs their birth sex. The only people that will help drop such barriers are the brave people public, vocal, and very visual, that have the courage to do that very thing. Blending into society is much more easy then highlighting its problems by being one that emphasises one of the problems. Only a sufficient amount of public displays that little by little people could relate and come to accept as not being a threat, could such boundaries by lowered.



Could he be an accountant , doctor, politician, or lawyer. Probably not comfortably. As an androgyne, if I had chosen one of those professions, I probably would still hide the male and female, instead of trying to merge them. This in itself is an interesting topic worthy of some discussion and note. Now someone that is a musician, artist, mechanic, tattoo artist, or such might find it a lot more easier to publicly express androgyny in a intergender-interliving-interdressing sort of manner.

As one dwells in more conservative type organizations and structure, one may encounter more limits on self expression, whether real or perceived, that make living such life unpractible. But I would assume once the rubber band breaks, everything would come crashing down in a very loud and explosive way, if that person really felt that both facets of genders were integral.

As you noted happiness and satisfaction are the judge and jury, rendering a verdict proper, true, and real. If merging of the two halves results in nothing in these two desired goals, the process then is just as imaginary as denying it's very possible existance. And sillyness and disatisfaction then may result. Certainly one cannot predict such results ahead of time, but a certain small test may be the more appropriate action. Knowing the result of the test, one could more readily predict the results of other such endeavors.


  •  

Mia and Marq

First off I'm trying as hard as I can to not take offense to indirectly being told I don't really exist or make sense. I feel real, I really do. It might be my confidence in what my personal situation is that seems threatening. People might think how is that even possible. Stranger things have been recognized.

Quote
I personally am extremely hesitant to recognize my female side as its own independent autonomous entity, as I feel it could open wide the doors for a more malignant form of multiple personality disorder.
I have to admit that yes my particular approach might kind of instill a bit of uncertainty. I've considered whether I might be suffering from multiple personality disorder. The problem with that is that the multiple personalities would not be aware of each other and the changes would not be so constant and fluid. I equate the use of personas to be more like two perfectly focused individuals that excel in different interests and knowledge bases standing at a podium and when a question is asked, the one that can answer it best steps foward to speak. Very simple, too simple perhaps, but I think it shows the point. Yes theres going to be conflict in a bi-gendered person, both sides pushing in opposite directions, but thats how you get balance.


QuoteIf I were to dress in both male and female elements, my masculine side would feel silly and my feminine side unsatisfied.
I agree with that, so how do you make both sides happy? Well males and females generally do have different goals they wish to achieve to be happy. The trick is to get the balance just right. To be honest, my female influence does not require me to dress as a women because there is that compassion for the male side. She knows whats important to him. So what does she get out of life, well the relationships she builds with other people is her reward. She knows with each friendship she nurtures, shes getting back all the love she could stand. Conflict really only ever occurs when her influence isn't being felt 50% of the time. Ok apperance does creep in but not in the same way, its more about taking care of the body like a mother to a child, nurturing this vessel to eat healthy, stay groomed, and stay fit.



QuoteTheoretically, the idea of bigender accepts the gender norms at the very least at the conceptual level. There are certain things that are inherently male, and those inherently female. I myself have always had problems with this. For me, ambition is a decidedly male concept. And although I am fully well aware that females are oftentimes more ambitious than men, for some reason I can't seperate masculinity from ambition. Just as I can't seperate feminity from nurturing and beauty. The list of course, can go on and on.
Perhaps I'm best able to define the differences as easy as I do based on these gender norms. I know I am abnormal because I hold both norms without splicing them. Its a very refined but arguably too all emcompassing for most people to desire. If you feel it though, it doesn't seem like a lot. Enough positive to balance the negative, as long as you still end up in the middle, it doesn't matter how much is pushing on each end, you're still perfectly still in the center.

QuoteOnly mixed/third gendered Androgynes can actually do the gritty work of breaking down gender norms. By showing that a skirt is not inherently a symbol of femininity by clearly contrasting it with masculine elements!
Its true, if you're comfortable with being bi-gendered, you might feel no strong desire to change anything. By the simple concept of having both sides, you're not crusading to change gender norms too much except with how you can feel comfortable portaying yourself. If you're looking to get a balance in your appearance, I think that society is coming around on accepting that sort of thing if you do the balance 50/50. A lot of musical artists and performing artists are pushing the Androgynous appearance every day just a little further. I couldn't go into a list for it grows and grows. Will it be accepted on a day to day level at work, probably not yet but things change quickly in the modern day, style will conform as these issues trickle into the larger publics knowledge.

QuoteHowever, if these kind of relationship holds true (where bigenders cannot escape the norms and mixed genders can) it becomes almost reasonable to see how people that are Androgyne would then categorize themselves as bigendered. Could it be that an androgyne's whole outlook revolves around how (s)he views gender? If gender norms are fixed and above human control, then feminine feelings, wants, and desires would be amalgamated and crystalized into a second entity... as looking at yourself as a whole doesn't make sense, or is (under their definition) untrue. Wheread for those who don't believe the norms are fixed, it becomes far easier, and even logical to view yourself as one. There is no contradiction, there is no problem, you are just you.This of course allows the discussion to taper down to if gender norms really are immutable or not...
Well I pondered your question about whether gender norms are immutable or not. I thought back to as far back as these gender roles emerged, and concluded they probably are immutable. The earliest recorded human gender roles go back to the early humans, cavepeople, nomads and the like. Even in societies today that are still in nomadic lifestyles, these gender roles are very well defined. Females doing gathering and caring for the children which with it brings what personality characteristics are necessary to fulfil that role and the males going out to hunt which with it brings different personality characteristics. One might argue though that things aren't like that anymore in modern society so do those characteristics still apply to modern genders. Considering over the span of human existance the characteristics haven't changed signficantly, that they are at the least not very easily mutable. Of course thats in general an up in the air topic since you could argue that we're just another creature on this planet and that other animals don't have clearly defined roles that match our own. Each creature though is seperate for consideration of how they exist. I've not really made a good point either way on that so lets just say for argument sake that at the least they're ingrained enough to be difficult to change without mass recognition.


QuoteI really am a big fan of Androgyne unity... I think in the world such as we have, we need to come together now more than ever to secure ourselves and fight for our cause. I'm just trying to find where my best fit lies. And like Madison said, the best way to learn things about ourselves, our situations, and others is through creative and civil discourse like we are having now.
Now this is probably one of the most important things I can say in this post. The last thing we want to do is seperate ourselves further when it comes to relating with each other because eventually the support groups shrink down to just you and your specific situation. My story, very specific to me, can only show guidance to those who draw parallels with their own stories.

What we need to do is share how we feel without attacking the values of others as being wrong. Its not my place to say "You must be bi-gendered to be happy" because to tell you the truth, i know plenty of well adjusted total males, total females, bisexuals, cross dressers, transexuals, androgynes, gays, etc...

We need to avoid saying how we think one thing is wrong because its not us, its not our place to tell others they can't be happy that way or question how they could ever think that with the intent of converting them to what we believe. Yes we need to keep the dialogues open so people can find their path without us actually saying what their path is. Life is the journey we each have to take, making our own choices with as much love and guidance as we want to recieve from those we surround ourselves with. I don't want to feel like the outcast here when that should not be the effect I'm feeling on a support forum.

Hopefully not an outcast
-Us
Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides
  •  

Vanessa V.

Definitely not an outcast Marq/Mia!

As a debater/philosopher I am used to critically analyzing myself and where I stand on things. I'm trying to look at the situation from all ways to figure out if how I feel inside (which is like you) makes sense (as that is important to me). I definitely don't doubt your bigenderedness, as I hope you don't doubt mine! Like a sword to the flame, so too does debate test views and arguments. Might get hot, but in the end you come out stronger for it. Please don't take any offense, especially since I feel very connected to you in our common situation!

As a matter of fact, I read through your story and found a great deal of commonality, which was very interesting and comforting to note!

I started off also considering myself a crossdresser. And I also kept largely to myself in secret. And I also, believe it or not, went out in public dressed for the first time at Halloween (Sophomore vs. Freshman year, but still close).

My female side also has a name, Vanessa. I guess she sorta has dominance here b/c its a site my male side would probably not go to on his own. And of course, all the definitional stuff, coexisting, cordial relations, etc.

My favorite part was your analysis about how we can easily dismiss the behaviors of the other sex away. That happens to me ALL THE TIME. Everyone thinks of me as a pretty sensitive, romantic guy, and like you said in your post in another thread, it pays off big time with the ladies... a wonderful bonus IMO! I concur with your analysis of cross dressing. Its definitely something that my female side revels in, that she is able to dress as she wishes, when normally the male side gets all the fun.

As to your first post in this thread, I also have to say that I get the same thing. Almost all of my friends now in college are women. And I never thought of it that its because they are drawn to a covert female personality, but that does make alot of sense in my opinion. Haha, its funny I had a particularly apt friend who actually wrote on her Xanga that even though my exterior was blatantly male/masculine, she said I had something about me who screamed "I am Female!" Needless to say I was particularly amused and excited by said post, and will definitely remember it for quite some time.

Its like how you said, the male side gets the press, but the female side definitely has her ways of influencing. The subtle undertone to be sure.


I've definitely got some questions for you, but I'll probably send those over PM.

Definitely don't get fed up with things Marq/Mia, you're great! :D

-Nessa
  •  

Laurry

Holy Cow!!!  I take a couple of days away from here and look what I missed!! The quailty of discourse in the Androgyne thread has blown me away.  You folks rock!

Where to start??  OK, first, some general comments and then some specific responses.

The question of bi-gendered- as opposed to mixed- androgynes is quite a fertile field.  Vanessa commented about her concerns about the inheirent instabilities of a separate male and female persona, and how it could open a door to more personalities.  I had this thought also.  I know I have a definite male side, and a definite female side, but I see this as more of an imperfection in the expression of my true self. 

(I believe that each of us is a whole and complete soul, at it's very essence a reflection of the divine.  I also believe that our choices and weaknesses dilute and refract that essence in such a manner as to obscure who we truly are, thus some come to embrace the deceptions and hungers that cause such pain in this world.)

I believe that, rather than having two people living inside me, he and she, there is really only one person here.  Sometimes the person feels and acts very male and others very female.  (The very concept that behaviour is categorized in such a manner is fodder for an entirely new topic which we won't get into right now as I can barely keep up with the ones we already have open.)  Regardless of how the behaviour is perceived, I am the one who exhibits it...not a part of me, not just one side.  As to whether this is normal in the world of Androgyny or not, I have no idea.  I cannot know how folks such as Vanessa and Marq/Mia feel anymore than I can know how those who have expressed having a more blended gender feel.  I am still exploring myself and examining how close my own behaviour reflects the person I strive to be.  I would like to think that as each of us come more in line with our true being that we reach the balance of behaviour and expression that best displays who we are.  (All of this, of course,  presupposes that one has already accepted the concept of a soul and that humans, at least, are more than an intelligent machine.)

So, is there really a difference between bi-gendered and mixed?  If you say so, I guess I will believe you.  Is it really a matter of separate expressions of self, or is it really two complete and separate selves?  I'll leave this answer for those who know a lot more than I do.  I will say that for each of us, our answer will be unique for ourselves.  While each of us have similarities in gender identifications, they really are only similarities.  Not everyone who identifies as male conforms to a steadfast rule of what makes them male.  Some are rough, some polished, Construction workers/Business Executive Investment Bankers...all display different behaviours and personalities, yet all are undoubtably male.  (There are similar comments about females).  Since there is such lattitude in the definition of "male", surely there is plenty of room in the Androgyne world to accomodate a few differences without adding additional subcategories.  (There ya go Laurie...always the peacemaker...sheesh)

One of the things that makes me "Me" is an ability to empathize and understand various points of view and grasp similarities.  Whether my Androgyny is a reflection of this ability, or this ability is a reflection of my Androgyny, I cannot say.  Both seem to come from an intuitive nature I have always possessed.




Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
Hehe, after reading all these amazingly intellectual posts by Madison, Laurie, and Kendra, I figured I needed to throw some of my opinions into the ring!  ;)  :P

Mine only sound that way because I have such a wonderful grasp of all things bullsh*t  :D

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
Its this concept of gender-splicing that has been weighing on my mind as of late. Call me crazy, and maybe this means I'm not truly androgynous, I dunno, but the visual figure of one person having both very auspicious male and female aspects to them is not appealing. To see a muscular male form in a skirt, or someone with a beard in a dress creates a tremendous amount of dissonance in my head. Not dissonance as in condemning or misunderstanding their lifestyle, but dissonance as in something is not right. Its like someone is forcefully combining two things that do not (or maybe even cannot?) go together.

Speaking as someone who had a beard and wore a dress, I take exception to this continuous downgrading and belittling of such an absurd figure.   ;D  It is this very reason that I never wore a dress in public...as Madison stated, I, too, have to live in this world and there is no reason (short of a desire to shock and disturb) for me to have appeared that way.  YMMV, and if so, I offer a heart-felt "Fantastic!"

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
In my life, I've always regarded my male and female energies, and male and female selves as two totally different entities. On one hand, there was the male me, traditionalist, control oriented, competitive and on the entirely separate other hand was the female me, nurturing, beautiful, sensual. Both exist and vie almost for influence on how I construct my existence. I am tempted to make analysis to id and superego, if only by the sheer amount of comparisons that exist between them. And the me people see is the ego that comes out in the end.

I agree with the male and female energies and the ebb and flow from one "pole" to the other.  But I tend to think of myself as the battery that contains both the male and the female poles.  As the energies flow, coming and going from each, my goal is to seek that place between where things feel "right", my own personal "balance" point.

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
Like most androgynes, I would rather be female, but am perfectly happy living as a male. I understand fully the benefits both genders give, and I take pains to capitalize on their unique and interesting advantages. Gender becomes a very fluid continuum, a very much so a Pink and Blue Ying and Yang, as Kendra discussed in her thread.

I don't know that I would rather be female, but simply to have the freedom to behave as one would when that behavour best resonates with my wants and desires at the time.  As you, I take advantages of the benefits of both genders when it best secures the achievement of my goals.  Is this wrong?  Maybe.  Do I care?  Not really.

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
But I see the Ying/Yang a little different than some. Though intertwined, each side is distinct and separate. The blue is on one side, and the pink on the other. They are intimate and together, but decidedly unmixed. That is how I live my androgyny, two competing and pure gender forces engaged in dialectic, rather than combining to form one uniform set of both. While the synthesis from my dialectic is also a blend in some ways, I consider it more as a mosaic (with parts of genders aligned just so) rather than it being the creation of a distinctly new gender dynamic in itself.

Not sure I am grasping this.  You consider yourself to be bits and pieces of the male and female energies that are, for lack of a better term, warring within you?  When a situation occurs, do you really have two differing reactions present themselves and you, even at a nearly sub-conscious level, choose which you will accept?  How can you do that?  How can you have the strength to do anything?  This must be a very difficult existence.

Now, if you are talking about the concepts of behaviour and expression being designated male or female, I could understand, though I still would stamp my feet and wish it were not so.  Who decided that is was "womanly" to be caring and nuturing?  Who decided that it is not "manly" to display such characteristics?  Yeah, I know, Society did...but who where they and what the heck were they thinking?

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
Its my wonder, now relating back to the topic, if those people that like to blend or create their appearances by deliberately placing disparate gender elements together could be classified as "third gender" androgynes, whereas people like myself who believe that the genders should not be mixed but rather (excuse the phrase) "separate but equal" are more "bi-gender" androgynes. (ref: What is an Androgyne Sticky).

So much fuel, so little fireplace...So, am I to imply that if I dress in a genderblended manner, I have a different "gender" than someone who chooses to dress only as one gender, or the other, at a time?  Sorry Nessa...I refuse to be a hypenated anything.  The only reason I identify as an Androgyne at all is because that is the "label" that most closely resembles who I am.  Am I male? Yes, but not completely.  Am I female?  Again, Yes, but not completely.  At this point, I have given up on trying to stick a label on who I am and simply say "This is me, take it or leave it."

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
My personality is a mix of both male and female genders...
Does that make me a feminine man?
Or does that make me something else entirely?

Which are you trying to be?  And why are you trying at all?  Wouldn't it be much simpler (and nicer) just to be who you are, without trying to figure out what everyone else if going to think?  In reality, it would be a more difficult walk, but the sense of peace it would bring would be amazing.

Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 04:44:49 AM
Does the Gendered System exist above our own, as some sort of Aristotelian Form almost?
Or can we create a system outside of it?
And if we do, what makes it distinct, versus merely an amalgamation of constituent parts?
Is a machine mightier than the parts used to create it?

I tend to think of the Gender system as more of a filter through which human actions are viewed.  This action is deemed male, that action female.  Does it make it any less real than any other concept or idea?  No.  Does it make it as hard to refute and change? Yes.  But the concept of Gender is a man-made structure through which we have all agreed (forcibly?) to view the world.  As such, it is imperfect and distorts our perception of the actions of others.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 08, 2006, 05:08:07 AM
My take on androgyne is similar to that which you have stated. I make no effort to attempt to mix the female and male parts within me, treating them as very seperate personas. They act with their own interests to influence the life I live, in many cases opposing each other. One might say "well are you conflicted inside", a little but good conflict within makes for a balanced person overall as in the example of Ying and Yang, Id and Ego, etc..

I think that in my day to day adventures my two sides both come out equally, but people don't even notice because they can't really get past my physical appearance. I know though my female influence is felt because a lot of females are drawn to me for friendship because they can feel in my personality that femininity even if they don't notice it. As far as which one I prefer, neither. I'm not capable of playing favorites. Which side gets recognized more often, obviously the male side. He's more aggressive, competitive, and outgoing, as well as physically looking like a male. It balances out though in the end because the female side though not recognized as much still influences in more subtle ways.

Hi Marq/Mia!  Haven't had a chance to converse with you.  I am looking forward to reading your post.  Although a lot of the comments I made earlier to Vanessa also would apply to the position you have expressed, you have made a couple here that I would like to comment on.

I'm still trying to get my mental hands around the two separate personas within someone, existing in a reasonably healthy manner.  Just as the "man with a beard in a dress" causes a certain sense of "not right" in us, so does the "two people in one body" thing.  I understand the ebb and flow of emotions and energies within us, and the concept of "tendency war".  The classic example is the battle of good and evil within us, with the Angel on one shoulder and the Devil on the other.  While most of us don't believe we really do have an Angel and a Devil in us, we understand the forces they represent and behave in a manner that displays signs of each.  I view the male and female forces within me in the same manner.  Sometimes I look in the mirror and see a guy...sometimes I look and see a girl...it's all in my perception of myself at the time.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 08, 2006, 05:08:07 AM
And actually on a humorous side note, I suspect that everyone else thinks I'm crazy the way I talk in plurals all the time

Such a perfect setup line...I should resist, but I just can't....

Noooooo, nobody thinks that about you (as far as you know)........LOL

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 08, 2006, 05:08:07 AM
To answer some of your questions, I would not consider your situation an example of a feminine man. It holds a bit of negative conotation for me honestly. Maybe more a balanced man. Most all males are unbalanced, and you should appreciate that you're covering the scale.

Balanced, YES!  Balanced man, I can get behind that too.

Oh, and Honey(s), females ain't all that balanced either.   ::)

Quote from: Simone on November 08, 2006, 01:39:25 PM
I wish to say something too if i may.

No, you may not!!  You didn't say "Mother May I?"   :-*

Just so you know, I am not the forum bouncer deciding who can post and who can't.  I just someone who enjoys being a smart-aleck, and has a hard time resisting set-up lines.  "I'm just a gal who cain't say no"...

Quote from: Simone on November 08, 2006, 01:39:25 PM
I have a very definate female side/concience that almost reaches out sensually to life

I like that line.  It expreses so well a part of my feminine side as well.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 08, 2006, 05:40:20 PM
I am not trying to destroy my male side of me, but add the feminine things that I really like.

Exactly.  I have a male reflection and a female reflection of who I am.  Each is important to me, as each is a part of me, but neither is entirely accurate.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 08, 2006, 05:40:20 PM
I still have moments that I like to dress up fully girl mode, but those times are fewer and fewer between now. I think as I have added more stuff to my day to day life, the splurges have deminished. I do feel some self-esteem about myself, which didnt exist before.

It is nice to hear your self-esteem has improved...I have only known you a short while, but you have always seemed strong and "together", and one would never have guessed that you have had issues in this area.  I look at you as someone who has travelled this road a little longer than I have and who is gracious enough to share themselves with others who are struggling.  (Plus, I always thought your picture, a few turns back where you showed a little cleavage, was pretty dang cute...I can't believe I said that out loud)

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on November 08, 2006, 05:40:20 PM
Androgynes are a variety, and there is no strict rules of being one, except that you recognize the male and female within you (gender) or dont have a gender (neither). Physical appearance is something that many androgynes do (clothing, makeup, hair, nails), but not all. And some even go through physical alterations, though just very few. But first and foremost is the acceptance of something more than the polar genders (accepting more a mix or spectrum).

'Nuff said.






Getting late...Madison, I'll get to your comments tomorrow...(try not to hold your breath...that Smurf look was sooo last year!)

This board just gets more exciting as we go along...there are some tremendous posts.  I feel like I am caught between trying to keep up, (and yet still contribute meaningful discourse), and being afraid that I will make the comment so off center that the whole thing will come crashing down.  But, since I have never been the one to hold back what I feel needs to be said (and a good deal of what doesn't), I'm more than willing to play along and see what happens...just gotta say, this is one heck of a fantastic ride.

You folks are wonderful

.......Laurie
Ya put your right foot in.  You put your right foot out.  You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.  You do the Andro-gyney and you turn yourself around.  That's what it's all about.
  •  

madison

Laurie made the best point so far...there is so much stuff here, its hard to keep up, and not leave anyone out, and so on. So I will be brief and mostly off-topic.

HA, I'm still chuckling, nay laughing out loud, from Marq And Mia Too's comment...

Quote
The last thing we want to do is seperate ourselves further when it comes to relating with each other because eventually the support groups shrink down to just you and your specific situation.

What a fantastic image, sick and twisted, but fantastically funny in a sad sort of way, of the lone person at their computer, seeking help for some personal problem or other that they had already wore out on co-workers, family, and talk-show hosts, and after being unable to get people on the support forum to see their way, trying so hard to be understood, while simultaneously calling out for help, and alienating everyone so bad, they are left alone, in a special board created for their very special and unique situation, posting to no one, pride-filled and self assured in their problem, waiting for someone else with that same very special unique situation to finally come along who can help them.

I've jotted this down as a rather darkly humorous and potent short story idea. With your permission of course Marq and Mia. While it has possibly been overdone, I believe satire and irony can still be a rich and utile form. Or maybe I just don't have anything original to say :) But I'll show that David Sedaris who understands inner turmoil and stream of consciousness  ;D

I probably think it is so funny, because I can imagine that happening to me around here. So desperate to understand myself; pontificating on thoughts only recently leapt across my synapses, as if all of a sudden I understood so much, when just the other day I was tearing up trying to express to a friend the emotional turmoil I have been suffering and still don't really understand.

But alas I have no fear, because I have my soul-sister-androgyne-brothers, who will surely help protect me from myself.  ;)




Thanks everyone for continuing to share. As soon as somebody starts judging we'll be sure to knock them down a few pegs. And nobody wants to get beat up by a guy in a dress. :) Questioning or failing to grok an idea or belief doesn't imply doubt or intolerance. If it works and makes you comfortable then, my pragmatism, some would accuse relativism, demands I support and enourage it. I may not invite you to my picnic, but I support you. And don't put plastic shopping bags, in the refrigerator, I really hate that. Oh and fake people, I really don't...




Keep the conversation going, but I'm going to bed.

  •  

Mia and Marq

Maddie,
Please use the idea for your story. I would love to read it of course when its done. I think my inspiration for that statement was rooted in suspecting if I was looking for another copy of my story I'd eliminate everyone till I'm staring at the screen going why won't anyone post under the topic "Only I can post here because you're not me". Now I know that that topic title in and of itself attempts to abruptly state the satirical nature of the concept without loosing effect by overstating nonessential details.

By the way, I adore the works by David Sedaris. I had the fortune to meet him when he came to visit my university back in the day. I've been a fan ever since. Hearing him read from his books was like living the life of another person though his distorted perceptions for a couple hours.

I don't sleep so if anyone responds I'll probably respond. I'm a vampire after all. Or I'm just so damn pale I'm flammable in the sun.

I'm gonna go eat a Rice Krispies Treat. Mia says "eat boy eat", swift wind and we're history.
-Us
Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides
  •  

Simone

Well,...how do i compete with this level of expression.!..hehe...not well i think...but heres another pennies worth from little Simone..x.

When i read the threads here...the almost imtimate bleeding of hearts, i also feel a warmth, no, fire that kindles in my soul. i feel her awake in me and the feminine soul ( Simone) in me listen and read in an understanding joy with the male of me, (Paul.)

I am so happy that i have found other people that have the same feelings that i have. I cannot describe this properly as i do not unfortunately share the same strength of writing that you all do..( i wish i did...trully).

I dwell on my being all the time, ever consuming but with a content and well being that i have not ever felt before. The realization that i am 'Androgyne' has been a much needed answer for me.  Simone screams out in joy that she has finally...after such torment and denial been seen, recognised for what she is. I feel her tears of happiness as i see that SHE has always been there, waiting for me to embrace her. Now i do.x.
She has always spoken out in her own way...whether it be a considerate compliment to another about their appearance or an approving glance at a dress or outfit that i see in a shop or displayed on a manaquine and i imagine wearing as a girl ( not on my male body). When i touch my wife, as a man in a loving way but seek out through HER what my wife would be feeling, enjoying. I almost place myself in Simone to understand the emotions of another 'girlfirend' at work who is down or distant. I occasionally display an understanding or compassion that my friends around me surprise at and compliment with ' a nice caring guy, sensitive..' as some have also mentioned in there comments.

I have also found myself tending to my physical body...cleaning with more care, grooming more often, noticing better what i wear, how i look and also feel. I have on occassion worn womans clothes but with care and specific selection...not for any form of 'turn on' or erotic gratification but almost to assure Simone that my male side cares....understands her need to feel the soft fitted material in the dress, skirt, top. It is brief encounter which is totally secret to only us.

So...i am feeling a deserved contentment that i am now sharing with...a female me....a  gift in my life.

I want to treat her...enrich her and spoil her...although i am not sure how!..maybe as i better understand us it will be more obvious.

Thankyou all for being here and sharing your hearts with me. I visit this site daily now...always searching for more insight and jewels in you.

your friends always....Paul/Simone.x.
  •  

Shana A

I've been busy for a few days and am just catching up here. This is a wonderful thread. I think of gender as a continuum, so in my perception, there are as many types of androgynes as there are of us on the planet. The more the merrier  ;D

Early in my dysphoric state I had a tendency to separate the two selves, but feel that I am happiest when my multi-gendered nature can be fully integrated into my life.

QuoteNow someone that is a musician, artist, mechanic, tattoo artist, or such might find it a lot more easier to publicly express androgyny in a intergender-interliving-interdressing sort of manner.

I am a full time musician, however since I live in a rural area and teach music to kids for part of my income, I regrettably don't always feel freedom to express my androgyny as fully as I'd like. :( But I'm working on it! :) The closet isn't a good place to live.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Louise

Vanessa wrote:
Quote from: Vanessa V. on November 08, 2006, 07:48:57 PM
The key issue at stake here is about the nature of gender, especially as it relates to the androgynous community, we who take the idea and stretch it to its limits. Theoretically, the idea of bigender accepts the gender norms at the very least at the conceptual level. There are certain things that are inherently male, and those inherently female. I myself have always had problems with this. For me, ambition is a decidedly male concept. And although I am fully well aware that females are oftentimes more ambitious than men, for some reason I can't seperate masculinity from ambition. Just as I can't seperate feminity from nurturing and beauty. The list of course, can go on and on.

The nature of gender is what underlies much of the discussion not only in this thread but in the very idea of the very notion of "transgender".  Among academic gender theorists there has been a debate going on, at least since de Beauvoir's The Second Sex, as to whether gender is something natural or is a socially constructed artifact.  This debate is itself part of the wider philosophical debate as to whether there are any natural "essences" or whether all conceptual categories are the product of language and are therefore social constructs.  Until de Beauvoir it was generally taken for granted that gender was natural and was in fact identical with physiological sex.  The idea that gender roles are not from nature but are socially constructed is what initially allowed the conceptual distinction between gender and sex--a distinction that was at the core of the "second wave" feminism of the 60's and 70's.  These second wave feminists promoted androgyny as a political ideal.  This idea was in its turn criticized by the next generation of "new feminists" such as Carol Gilligan who once more insisted on the connection between gender and nature.  While not wanting to return to the days when gender stereotyping was used as justification for putting women in subordinate social positions, these "difference feminists" insisted that too often the political ideal of androgyny was simply a subterfuge for insisting that everyone be measured by a single implicitly male standard.

Those who defend the notion that gender is natural generally make this point not merely as a descriptive thesis but as a normative one: those who are naturally male should be expected to behave like men and those who are naturally female should be expected ti behave like women.  On the other hand those who take gender to be socially constructed deny that there are any objective norms for gender specific behavior.  What both sides agree on is that there are two genders and that there have always been distinct gender roles.  Those who defend the socially constructed model will point out that even though there have always been distinct gender roles these roles are themselves variable--what one society accepts as masculine or feminine behavior is not the same as what another society accepts--the only constant is that there is some distinction of two gender roles.

If anyone is interested in some sources on academic gender theory, this link is a good place to get started:
gender and sexuality resources at E-Server

Another good site that is directed more explicitly to the transgendered is:
Trans Reference Site

On another note, I am intrigued by the "bearded man in a dress" references, since I am just such an individual.  I have sometimes been tempted to update my icon to the "real me", that is, to appear to the rest of you as I often appear to myself in the mirror--dressed completely in feminine attire and makeup and wearing a full beard.  The only problem is that this is no more the "real me" than is the image I use as my icon which is a photo of myself during one of the relatively rare times when I was clean shaven.  It is no more the "real me" than is my appearance with a beard in male attire.  No one of these images is the real me insofar as my "inner self" cannot be identified with any one image.  Yet all of those images are true in that they represent a part of myself.  The images are concrete and particular and no mere particular can capture the transcendence that is a self.  In a somewhat different way, the notion of gender cannot fully express the lived reality of a self either.  Except that in this case, gender is an abstraction not a concrete particular.  Like any abstraction it is true to the extent that it is rooted in a lived experience, but like any abstraction we are wise not to identify it with that experience.  Gender is a necessary oversimplification of a complex lived experience.
  •  

Kendall

QuoteNow this is probably one of the most important things I can say in this post. The last thing we want to do is seperate ourselves further when it comes to relating with each other because eventually the support groups shrink down to just you and your specific situation. My story, very specific to me, can only show guidance to those who draw parallels with their own stories.

What we need to do is share how we feel without attacking the values of others as being wrong. Its not my place to say "You must be bi-gendered to be happy" because to tell you the truth, i know plenty of well adjusted total males, total females, bisexuals, cross dressers, transexuals, androgynes, gays, etc...

Good point. I do like sometimes some direct comments, questions, or inquiries. And sometimes just some old fashioned debate.

I have been hurt by posts before, and probably everyone else has been also, so its always good to remember this. I also think I have hurt some with my own posts before. At the same time hopefully we can also keep a spirit of openness.

Hearing different opinions, experiences, styles, and histories is also refreshing.

QuoteIt is nice to hear your self-esteem has improved...I have only known you a short while, but you have always seemed strong and "together", and one would never have guessed that you have had issues in this area.  I look at you as someone who has travelled this road a little longer than I have and who is gracious enough to share themselves with others who are struggling.  (Plus, I always thought your picture, a few turns back where you showed a little cleavage, was pretty dang cute...I can't believe I said that out loud)

So, you liked my cute blossoming photo shot. I did feel a little full in the cups and some swelling.

QuoteI want to treat her...enrich her and spoil her...although i am not sure how!..maybe as i better understand us it will be more obvious.

Thankyou all for being here and sharing your hearts with me. I visit this site daily now...always searching for more insight and jewels in you.
Your posts are helping bring more insight to the androgyne section as well. A good way to help each other. She will tell your how to spoil her, dont worrry. Just hope you have the money for all the new stuff...


QuoteI have sometimes been tempted to update my icon to the "real me", that is, to appear to the rest of you as I often appear to myself in the mirror--dressed completely in feminine attire and makeup and wearing a full beard.  The only problem is that this is no more the "real me" than is the image I use as my icon which is a photo of myself during one of the relatively rare times when I was clean shaven.  It is no more the "real me" than is my appearance with a beard in male attire.  No one of these images is the real me insofar as my "inner self" cannot be identified with any one image.  Yet all of those images are true in that they represent a part of myself.  The images are concrete and particular and no mere particular can capture the transcendence that is a self.  In a somewhat different way, the notion of gender cannot fully express the lived reality of a self either.  Except that in this case, gender is an abstraction not a concrete particular.  Like any abstraction it is true to the extent that it is rooted in a lived experience, but like any abstraction we are wise not to identify it with that experience.  Gender is a necessary oversimplification of a complex lived experience.

I tried  myself a picture of me in more of the my male mode. Nothing bad that I know of happened from using it. I am glad that the forum got to see another part of me.

Thanks for the accademic gender theory info, I will look at.

Ken/Kendra

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