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Why is there a T in LGBT?

Started by Angel On Acid, June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM

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Angel On Acid

I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.
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Janet_Girl

I think it is because we face many of the same issues that the LGB community faces.  Like great strength in numbers.

Many think ours is a life style choice, similar to the way they think being gay is a life style choice.  But they are only half right.  It is a life choice.  To choice life rather than death.
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Nathan.

Like Janet said we have the same fight.
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cynthialee

Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Miniar

There's a fair bit of overlap between glb & t, 'specially when you look at "transgender" as an umbrella term.
We face many of the same abusive treatments and discrimination.
Strength in numbers.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Kristyn

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.

Sweet Jesus!  Someone who actually shares the same belief as me!
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Laura91

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

I saw this for myself when I went to a few meetings of our local supposed GLBT group. Many times during discussions about ENDA I heard this over and over: "the G and L need their rights and the T can wait". (notice how they left out the B altogether?). Needless to say I was completely disgusted by this and I stopped attending the meetings. It just shows that people are only concerned about their own interests and couldn't care less about other people.
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spacial

The gay rights movement and the feminists had a lot in common. Both, essentially, demanded to be treated as equal before the law and society, while continuing to express themselves as they chose.

That argument was just so good, that it was conceeded. Discrimination continues of course, but it is a mark of how it is viewed that generally, those that discriminate, seek to cover it up or find specious arguments.

While most women, having won their battle, sought to return to their lives, a few looked for more battles. The phrase, All Men are Rapists was a more extreme example of the depths this rump sank to.

For the gay activists, a few toyed with a notion, in the late 70s, that the age of consent for gay people should be abolished. Quick explaination. Here in the UK the age of consent was intially put at 21, then 18, while the age for hetrosexual people was 16. The activists argued that since there is no corelation between gay and child molesters, (absolutely true of course), then there is no argument for imposing any age restrictions on gay relationships.

The flaws in this argument are obvious but it was made quite openly and supported by a number of accademics at the time. We can only be grateful that the press didn't take it up before it was pushed into the rubbish bin.

But the activists continue with their notion of 'coming out', as if this is some sort of social necesity, a mark, not just of self respect, but of distinction.

I and I know a lot of gay people take issue with this. My sexuality is no-one's business other than who I choose to share it with. I am not ashamed of who or what I am. (At least now). But as far as I am concerned, all society needs to know about me is that I am a respectiable citizen who contributes to society.

It is no-one's busness who I sleep with. I don't happen to sleep with anyone. My wife and I have for over 20 years slept separately through mutual choice. Again, that is no-one's business other than those I choose to tell.

The bisexual community presents a specific problem because, by implication, its sexual interest, and therefore activity, is with both sexes and therefore with multipul partners. Another, completely separate, can of worms really.

The transgendered community presents further problems for the gay activists. Firstly, because within our community, there is a broad range of needs.

Some actively seek to change their gender and live, hetrosexually in that gender.

On the other extreme, some simply seek to express themselves in their opposite gender.

In between, is a wide range of other needs. There is a significant cross over with bisexuality. And then there are those, like me, who would dearly love to change but lack the opportunities or the courage.

For us, we seek the right to express ourselves within the context of society. Few of us, I believe, really want to stand out as beligerant 'Trans'.

Now the issue of self expression deserves to be looked at more closely. It may seem like a non-argument to many, like democracy, liberty, comfort. But in reality, it is a political objective.

Social order and conformaty is completely natural to many. Companies frequently demand uniforms for their employees, or at least, a standard of dress. Many people find the sight of a beard to be unsightly, even unplesent. Margaret Thatcher was known for this for example.

This is what we are really faced with. Those that rant about bathrooms are just a silly bunch of rabble rowsers appealing to the rednecks or their non-American equivelent.

Self expression is about individuality. It is about individual freedom. It is about each of us, transgendered or otherwise, having a natural opportunity to participate and contribute to society. More, or most importantly, it is the notion that contributing to society is a bigger imperitive than conformaty. Social exclusion is a bigger threat to social order than crime or drug abuse.

The opponents of individuality of course, seek to enjoy and defend the freedoms they enjoy. They see these as natural and the achievement of these as a fulfilment.

Those of us who demand Individuality, see the achievement of those freedoms so far acheived as part of an incomplete process.

For those gay activists who think failure to come out is a sign of inferiority or cowardice, such complicated notions are possibly too difficult to manage. In any case, they have achieved their goal. Now they pat us on the head and expect us to be grateful they are providing a small corner where we can get on with whatever, as long as we don't make a fuss. (And disturb the 'Adults').

But more importantly. many of these gay activists, are not really in favour of establishing a new front of individual liberty.

We can perhaps, compare our own situation with the 19th century Americans, left out in the cold while a few declared that 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all White Anglo Saxon Males are created equal.'.
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Apricot

QuoteWhenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this.

If it's any consolation, they would be questioning your sexuality anyway.

I consider my personal situation a medical condition. It's not a lifestyle for me, it's just something I need treatment for. Anyone who is human can relate to that. Sometimes I question the effectiveness of our relationship with the LGBT folks. We have a common enemy, and many of the same political aspirations, but that's the extent of it.

I suppose we're stronger together than broken apart at the moment so it's a compromise worth the relationship for now.

EDIT: As for the LG discrepancies with Transfolks, one thing I learned in life is that when some folks say "We want equality for ALL", what they are really saying is "I want equality for ME." In otherwords, they only care that they get their rights themselves. They care not the idea that we should all have freedom, liberty, and a chance at happiness without religious persecution [principles our country was founded on]. The blacks voted for proposition 8 in droves, the gays discriminate against their trans brothers and sisters, and the Ts also aren't going to give a damn about the next poor fool who needs their rights.

Folks are just hideous like that, especially in this country. When I realized that, I was depressed for days.
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Lachlann

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.

I've noticed this myself. Strength in numbers, but the LGBT is clearly divided. How can we expect to get places if we're fighting amongst ourselves at times?

Granted there are LGBT organizations that are accepting to all involved, but it's unnerving to me that I can't even feel 100% safe in a community that I supposedly belong to.
Don't be scared to fly alone, find a path that is your own
Love will open every door it's in your hands, the world is yours
Don't hold back and always know, all the answers will unfold
What are you waiting for, spread your wings and soar
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kyril

Their fight is our fight because no matter who we sleep with or how we identify, somebody always thinks we're gay. Witness the inconsistent patchwork of laws across the country - we can marry cis people heterosexually in some states, cis people homosexually in others, and whether or not we can marry our chosen trans partner depends in most states on how far along each of us is in transition, except in states that don't recognize gender market changes at all, where we can only marry opposite-sex trans partners. Also look at how the bigots treat us - Brandon Teena's rapists/murderers called him "->-bleeped-<-got" as they brutalized him, and he was straight, and this was *long* before "LGBT" was in the lexicon of country boys in Nebraska.

Our fight is their fight because so much of homophobia is rooted in issues of gender rather than sex. Remember that young trans kids are indistinguishable from young gay kids (who in fact make up the majority of GID diagnoses in children), and most gay-bashing is based on perceived gender nonconformity.

We stick together because of that and also because of our history - at Compton on the West Coast and Stonewall on the East, LGB and T people rose up together to throw off the shackles of oppression and demand to exercise our rights to freedom of speech (including gender expression) and association. It's Pride month - it's a good time to read up on the history.

(I use "we" above to mean trans folk and "they" to mean LGB, even though I identify as both G and T, because of the context of this forum.)


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Apricot

There will always be sexists, racists, homophobes, and other etc. These kinds of battles just aren't things that can be won. That isn't to say that you shouldn't fight. Just don't lose perspective along the way. 
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spacial

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 20, 2010, 05:21:21 AM
Because women haven't won.
We're winning, but there is still plenty of inequality going on.
If you think women have 'won'...well, I'd best not say what I think of you in this setting.

Your point is well made and genuine.

But as I also said:

QuoteDiscrimination continues of course, but it is a mark of how it is viewed that generally, those that discriminate, seek to cover it up or find specious arguments.


That the irrelevant discrimination that continues against people is being justifed at all, demonstrates that the tide has turned. That battle is won. All that is left is mopping up the stupid and the ignorant.

But the discrimination against self expression continues. It continues because the previous battles were fought on a piece meal basis. One issue at a time.

There are specific laws against discriminating against people because of the colour of their skin. Because of their gender, because of their sexual orientation. All perfectly justfied in themselves.

But those battles were part of a war against discrimination based upon irrelevances.

Society is made up of each of us. Each of us has an exactly equal right to be here.

Society needs each individual to contribute to the common good.

But society continues to exclude people based upon irrelevances, such as our appearance and self expression.

That is counter to the good of society.

While we continue to view our situation as Transgendered people against society, even if we manage to win, we will have done society no service at all. Because discrimination based upon irrelevance will continue.

Our community is sufficiently broad, sufficiently varied that we cannot afford to concentrate upon specifics.

It isn't about the right of a man to wear a dress, or a woman to look male. It is about social exclusion.

We, decent, intelegent, honest people are being prevented from contribution, from working, from living and earning because of something that is entirely irrelevant to our decency, our honesty or our intelegence.

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Nygeel

The best way I can describe the comparison of feminism and the LGBT movement is pretty much that many LG(b) folks that are cis and fit somewhere in the "acceptable gay" category/mainstream "LGBT" movement are similar to the Bourgeoisie while some of the B and a lot of the T are closer to the working class...if we're talking first wave.

Ending suffrage=gay marriage
Allowing women to not lose jobs due to pregnancy= gender inclusive ENDA
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Asfsd4214

I, like many people, tend to just ignore the 'T' in LGBT. whenever the phrase LGBT is used, it really only menas LG (and to a lesser extent B), and nothing to do with T.

But why is there one? It's simple, because it's a cross gender behaviour, as is homosexuality (it's behavior that defies expectations for your gender). And the whole lot has been lumped together.
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Autumn

QuoteThe bisexual community presents a specific problem because, by implication, its sexual interest, and therefore activity, is with both sexes and therefore with multipul partners. Another, completely separate, can of worms really.

And those ->-bleeped-<-gots are just a hop skip and a jump away from f***ing farm animals.

Monogamy has nothing to do with sexual orientation. And considering how many straight people cheat, it's just downright offensive to use that as an argument. And, you know, straight people have multiple partners anyway. More people would talk about it if society weren't so prudish. Personally, I am only interested in monogamous relationships for myself. And if I'm not in a relationship, who cares how many people I'm f***ing?


Besides, gay rights = bi rights. As the thread has already said, if you're queer, you're just gay anyway, so where it matters, all of us are ultimately the same in the eyes of the ignorant anyway. Bis get screwed by everyone socially because neither sexuality trusts them, and while they can reap the benefits of being apparently 'straight', blowing their cover can be even worse than someone who was openly gay and would never get into the positions that someone bi does. Plus, a lot of people just can't understand someone being bi.

When I first whispered about transitioning at work, my boss could sort of understand that. But she couldn't understand me liking both. Then when I transitioned, most people just assumed I liked guys. Most of the people who I've mentioned to that I have a girlfriend now physically stop, literally ask "How does that work?" and I give them a graphic explanation of transsexual sex!
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Dante

I can understand the "strength in numbers", but I don't think it really makes sense for LGBT to be together. The LG have problems with the BT because they don't "fit". The problem with strictly the LGB and T being together is that transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, whereas LGB does; it's what they have in common. They just lumped us all together because they deal with the same "general" topic.





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Julie Marie

Quote from: Amy on June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM
I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian. 

An awful lot of lesbians I know and see present so male that it's jaw dropping to hear them dis trans people.  Same with effeminate gays.  Take a look in the mirror!  Gays love drag but drag performers aren't considered trans?  And how do mainstreamers identify gays or lesbians?  By their cross gendered presentation.  It makes you scratch your head and wonder how LGs can miss something so obvious.

I know I'm repeating myself but once the negative stigma eases, the LG community will wake up and see an awful lot of them are trans.  And then they will drop the resistance to full inclusion.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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spacial

Quote from: Autumn on June 21, 2010, 02:42:29 AM
And those ->-bleeped-<-gots are just a hop skip and a jump away from f***ing farm animals.

Monogamy has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I do apologise. My wording was very clumsey.

I was referring to perceptions.

It isn't my place to say what an entire group do or don't, think or don't.

I appreciate that many people feel a need to identify themselves, to be able to say who they are and put their stake into the ground, so to speak.

I'm concerned about the fragmentation that may result.

Our comminality is our approach to our self expressions of our own gender identity. But within that, we each have so many different approaches.

I, for example, accept that I am gay, though I would wish to be female. So, would I still be gay? I don't, openly dress feminine because of the social problems which I lack the courage to face. I am married to a woman for whom I would willingly give up anything. So, am I bisexual?

I suggesting that the radical, confrontational approach of the gay community (we're here, we're queer...) and the feminists (equal rights, equal pay...) is not just unsuited to us, it is counter productive.

I believe that we can do better with argument. That our appearance is irrelevant.

We are decent, honest and want to contribute to society. It is in societies interests to judge all of us on what we contribute, on our characters.

I appreciate and fully acknowledge the similarities to Martin Luther King, when he said, judged, not by the color of their skin but by the content of their characters. I go further and say this is my source. I go further and say that my greatest honour is to have been alive at the same time as three of the most incredable people in history.

But the principal is a good one. It is a right one. It is the way froward, into society. Because it will make each of us part of society, not some freaks, with special rights.
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Miniar

One thing that seems to slip minds here is that the GLBT movement isn't just one thing. That is to say, it's not the same "here" as it is "there".

The Icelandic GLBT movement doesn't really divide itself so much. It's more concerned with "all inclusive human rights" than "gay rights".

(I'm wording myself poorly today, tired and my head hurts)



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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