I have found information on the Net about similarities between gay males and women and differences between men and women, but I can not find anything that compares gay males and MTF transgendered.  I am not talking about sexual orientation, but rather other types of feelings, differences and similarities in brain function, etc. 

As background, I am a gender confused gay male that is trying to figure things out.  Thanks for any helpful feedback.

Gay people like men.

MTF people are women.

Some women like men, some women like women.

The two are completely unrelated and any attempt to draw a correlation will end up with futile results.

I know we're often grouped in with gay people as "LGBT", and I know some MTF people can like men, but I find the assumption that the two are somehow related to be quite insulting, sorry.

I guess transgendered folk might be more open to new ideas.


Edit: <-- bisexual MTF.

simple version: gay male identifies as male and has pref for male partners

a trans woman identifies as female, sexuality is separate from gender identity, role, and expression

see https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans_101

Are you talking about studies that show that the sexual/arousal part of a gay man's brain can react to similar stimuli as a straight woman's?

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that the similarities stop there. Gay men are men who like men. MTF's are women who may or may not like men.

I am sure there are similarities between men who like men and women who like men, brain pattern wise.

But that doesn't have anything to do with whether they are trans or not.

I'm sure mtf women that like men would share whatever similarities that straight women and gay men have.

I wondered that too and I thought about it the big difference however is that camp men are happy as men, I am not happy with my body and am stifled by it.

Would just like to point out at this moment that all of the camp men I know (can name at least five) are not gay; and you'd never know my gay friends had boyfriends unless they showed them you.

Effeminite guys aren't necessarily homosexual guys

Quote from: My Name Is Ellie on June 30, 2010, 05:57:12 PM


Effeminite guys aren't necessarily homosexual guys

THANK YOU

I have MANY str8 male friends that are so campy. I always tease them 'ur so gay'(said like the katie perry song).


Oh and to the OP. MTF Are WOMAN when they like a man it's a 'heterosexual relationship' if they happen to like woman it's a Lesbian relationship. you can't compare gay men to mtf's.

Quote from: Robertin210 on June 30, 2010, 04:49:34 PM
I have found information on the Net about similarities between gay males and women and differences between men and women, but I can not find anything that compares gay males and MTF transgendered.  I am not talking about sexual orientation, but rather other types of feelings, differences and similarities in brain function, etc. 

As background, I am a gender confused gay male that is trying to figure things out.  Thanks for any helpful feedback.

In short, gay men are comfortable with being men.  MTFs would rather be women.  If a gay man would rather be a woman, then I think they need to decide for themselves whether they are transgendered.

I'm aware of one study that says gay men and hetero women have similar brains.  But, I'm really out of my league and couldn't go into the specifics of the study, I'd have to research it.  There may be some here that could explain that better.

BTW, I did not mean any offense to anyone.  I understand that sexual orientation and gender are quite different, but many gay men also consider being gay as part of their identity (not just who they sleep with).

I am a gender confused gay male and trying to figure out my identity.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if my emotions, thinking pattern, and self-identity is gay or transgendered.

I'm not really sure what it means to be either a man or woman.  I've had a testosterone deficiency since childhood and I think it has probably affected my development.

Thanks for your understanding and comments.

If you're asking about the brain studies, there aren't enough of them, and a lot of brain studies of gay men have been either inconclusive or conflicting. It seems that gay men (in general) have a few brain characteristics that are like women's, but others that are hypermasculinized. And the very few trans women who have been studied seem to have classically female brains in terms of morphological characteristics/relative size of structures, but they were studied after years of HRT so cause and effect are uncertain.

As for your personal identity...consider this: would you still feel the way you do about your gender if you were attracted to women? Or is your effeminacy specific to the context of being gay/relating sexually to men?

Quote from: Robertin210 on June 30, 2010, 07:15:56 PM
I am a gender confused gay male and trying to figure out my identity.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if my emotions, thinking pattern, and self-identity is gay or transgendered.

I'm not sure if either of the first two things make somebody trans, it's more the third.  Do you feel like you are a woman, or that you should be a woman?  If so, you may be trans.

Many, if not most, trans people do share thinking and emotional patterns with the sex they identify with (especially AFTER HRT) but don't let that fog things up, you could certainly have one without the other.

HRT does make your brain work more like your target gender, after being on it for about a year I have no doubt about that.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 30, 2010, 10:49:42 PM
Well, you have a problem right there, as we have lots of people who are gay AND transgender on these forums.

I think you're misunderstanding, vex - the OP knows s/he is attracted to men, but isn't sure of his/her gender identity. I didn't read any anti-trans-gay feeling, just an honest question ("How do I tell if I, a male-assigned person who's attracted to men, am a feminine gay man with a hormone imbalance or a straight trans woman?")

Quote from: kyril on June 30, 2010, 07:34:21 PM
And the very few trans women who have been studied seem to have classically female brains in terms of morphological characteristics/relative size of structures, but they were studied after years of HRT so cause and effect are uncertain.

Actually for some reason a lot of people aren't aware but there was another study done that included controls for that and got the same result.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on June 30, 2010, 11:13:26 PM
Actually for some reason a lot of people aren't aware but there was another study done that included controls for that and got the same result.

Oh, that's good! Any chance you have a link handy, or a name of the study/author?

Quote from: kyril on June 30, 2010, 11:18:35 PM
Oh, that's good! Any chance you have a link handy, or a name of the study/author?

Here ya go http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 



The only major issue with this one is a very small sample size, otherwise it does take into account the possibilities ignored by the first study (hormonally induced changes) and includes FTM's (iirc the first did not)

Essentially, it indicates that BSTc sexual dimorphism is not significantly influenced by hormones postnatal. And does correlate with gender identification, but not sexual orientation.

Thanks!

If I'm truly transgendered, I'm confident that I am not gay since I have never experienced sexual attraction towards women.  It is difficult for me to know how I identify because I don't know how men and women really feel.  I can only compare how I feel with what others tell me about how they feel. I've had a lot of issues with my mother through out my life, and I think it probably affected how I feel about women.  I didn't really have a good female role model, other than my grandmother - but her motto is "suffer in silence"  so not that helpful.

I just found out today that my counselor gave me a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.  He said that he would be happy to talk with me about it, but he is not an expert in that area.  In a way I am glad to have this diagnosis, but in a way it scares me too - something else that is wrong with me.  I'll try to look at that label as meaning - trying to figure out who s/he is.

Kyrill, you asked me if I would want to be a woman if I was attracted to women.  I don't know.  Who I am, right or wrong, seems to be deeply connected to how I relate to others.  I'm a very sensitive person and I don't do so well alone. 

If I was not going to have a sexual relationship with anyone, part of me thinks what the use is it to have female genitalia, other than the fact that male genitalia gets in the way.  The thought of being able to physically be with a man as a woman is very appealing to me both emotionally and sexually.  But, gender identification is more than one's genitalia, right?

I'm just not sure how to figure this out . . .

It is much more than your genitalia.

There's the social aspect: How do you want people to relate to you when you're not in bed with them? Do you feel drawn to the way women relate to each other? Do you get angry when/if you're excluded from "girl talk"? Do you feel inexplicably happy when you're included? If you could never be truly "one of the guys" in an all-male social group again, would you miss it? If you're already included by the girls and (partly or fully) excluded by the guys, does this feel right, or does it bother you?

Then there's the physical aspect: Do you want to lose your strength and muscle mass? Do you want to put on significantly more fat? Do you want breasts and curvy hips? Do you want thin, soft, sensitive skin that's far more delicate and very easily cut or bruised but also very easily stimulated? Do you want less body hair? Are you frustrated at how your clothes fit, not because you're not in good enough shape, but because your body doesn't seem to be the right shape at all - it's too big in some places, and it's missing the curves that ought to fill out the clothes in other places?

Then there's the mental/emotional aspect: Do you find it easier to understand women than men? Do you find that you can easily explain a woman's thoughts to a man, but are at a loss if asked to explain a man's thoughts to a woman? Do you sometimes have trouble picking up male social cues, but easily notice female social cues that men seem to miss? Are you confused by your own thoughts and feelings, especially in moments of high (sexual or physical) arousal - when you experience surges of hormones do your thoughts or feelings sometimes seem "alien" and disconcerting?

Then there's the relationship aspect: Outside of the sexual aspect, are you happy being in gay relationships? Does the dynamic between two male partners feel right to you? Or are you drawn to a heterosexual yin/yang complementarian relationship dynamic? Do your relationships usually make sense to you? To your partner? To your gay friends?