Kyril, thanks for a wonderful and thoughtful reply.  I've only recently had girl friends - something I've long wanted - and I really relate to them.  The other day one of the girls that I was only recently introduced to commented to the group that she liked me and that "he is one of us."  We talk about feelings, guys, life, and feel better by talking.  Guys seem to be more interested in fixing things and don't always value talking.  I never really fit in with the guys, especially if they start talking about regular guy stuff.  I don't mind having a beer with the guys, but honestly it is probably more because I am attracted to guys.  I often tend to gather with the women when at a social function.

Physically, I am very weak now because I have not taken my T.  Most girls are stronger than I am.  I don't want to gain more weight in general, but would not made having a little more behind.  I kind of have what I call "old man breasts"  that are larger than normal, but not large enough to be considered female.  I probably need to get the courage and see how I look as a girl if I could find a wig somewhere.  I am so self conscious that I don't know that I could be happy being a woman if I could not pass.  It is difficult enough for me to go out as a guy in public.  I used to be stronger and more macho - carried a gun for a living, but I had to force a lot of my actions to fit in and get the job done. 

I seem to understand women very well.  I can also understand where men are coming from, though I often don't see the logic in it.  In that way, I am blessed in the sense that I touch both worlds.  I'm reminded of the indigenous two-spirit people of the native Americans.  I can easily explain how a woman feels to a man, though that doesn't mean that they understand.  It has only been recently that I have been able to bounce my feelings off of girl friends and find that we are thinking the same.  When I previously did the same with male friends, they just didn't understand and thought it might be a gay thing.  I pick up non-verbal cues from both sexes and consider myself to be somewhat empathic.  I don't get surges of hormones, so can't comment on that.

Relationship wise, I never hit it off well with gay men in relationships.  I've had some great friends, but never a real love relationship.  My first relationship that I felt was special was with a self-identified straight man who treated me like a lady (I know that is another topic) but that is what really prompted my recent gender questioning.  I loved the way he made me feel, both in bed and out.  There just seems to be something different in straight men that attracts me. 

I know that I have to answer these questions, but it does help to hear what others have to say and to be able to sort of talk out loud and get feedback. 

I greatly appreciate you all, and the time and patience you have shown to me - I'm so new to this all, and today has been a particularly stressful day with getting new labels from my shrink. 

Yeah, you sound trans. I'm sorry.

You'll have no idea how you pass until you take hormones - the subtle changes that start to kick in after HRT gets rolling make a big difference. Lifelong deficiency of T has likely helped you a lot. Big hands? Feet? Adam's apple? Brow ridge? Wide shoulders? Voice?

Let your therapist refer you to a specialist - and use your girlfriends for help. Hell, if you don't feel confident discussing it with them yet, just play it off as an interest in drag.

Nice post Kyril.   And Robertin, you definitely sound trans to me.  It's up to you to decide whether you really are or not though.  Good luck!

I identified as a gay man for about 6 years but I've recently come to terms with the fact that that is not true. I'm a woman in a mans body and that's how I've felt my whole life.

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Post Merge: July 02, 2010, 11:36:12 PM

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Quote from: kyril on July 02, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
It is much more than your genitalia.

There's the social aspect: How do you want people to relate to you when you're not in bed with them? Do you feel drawn to the way women relate to each other? Do you get angry when/if you're excluded from "girl talk"? Do you feel inexplicably happy when you're included? If you could never be truly "one of the guys" in an all-male social group again, would you miss it? If you're already included by the girls and (partly or fully) excluded by the guys, does this feel right, or does it bother you?

Then there's the physical aspect: Do you want to lose your strength and muscle mass? Do you want to put on significantly more fat? Do you want breasts and curvy hips? Do you want thin, soft, sensitive skin that's far more delicate and very easily cut or bruised but also very easily stimulated? Do you want less body hair? Are you frustrated at how your clothes fit, not because you're not in good enough shape, but because your body doesn't seem to be the right shape at all - it's too big in some places, and it's missing the curves that ought to fill out the clothes in other places?

Then there's the mental/emotional aspect: Do you find it easier to understand women than men? Do you find that you can easily explain a woman's thoughts to a man, but are at a loss if asked to explain a man's thoughts to a woman? Do you sometimes have trouble picking up male social cues, but easily notice female social cues that men seem to miss? Are you confused by your own thoughts and feelings, especially in moments of high (sexual or physical) arousal - when you experience surges of hormones do your thoughts or feelings sometimes seem "alien" and disconcerting?

Then there's the relationship aspect: Outside of the sexual aspect, are you happy being in gay relationships? Does the dynamic between two male partners feel right to you? Or are you drawn to a heterosexual yin/yang complementarian relationship dynamic? Do your relationships usually make sense to you? To your partner? To your gay friends?

That sounds so much like me.

Just my own persective.

I call myself a gay man, because I wanted to be with a man.

I call by self transsexual because I dreamed of being a woman with a man.

Since I was very young, I wanted to be female.

But just to make things really complicated, I've been married to a woman with similar problems to my own, for almost 30 years.

It's terminologies really.

I am uncomfortable about calling myself a woman since that isn't my appearance. I hope I have a female soul but that is for others to judge of course.

I am equally uncomfortable with the notion of a woman in a man's body. That is probably true and I would never criticise anyone for using the term.

My own feeling is. I am a sane, intelegent, law abiding adult human. Like others in my situation, I should be free, completely free to express myself my own way while contributing to society.

I don't need defination. I don't need a category, or a label. I just need society to accept me for who I am in the same way as it expect and gets, me to accept others.

In a way, I would have been much more fortunate to have questioned my gender before I was put on T.  I did not really go through puberty until my early 20's, and in college I looked like a little 15 year old kid.  My voice deepened, but is not terribly low, my adam's apple is not that prominent, and I'm not sure about other facial features. I am 6'0 with long arms and legs - a result of not having T, which stops linear growth and begins development of secondary sexual characteristics. 

I'm in my mid 40's, and not the best of health.  Sometimes I think I should just ride out this life as is, but then I think, maybe I could be happier. 

I think I need to learn more about what it means to be a woman.  I don't have any girl friends my age, and as a young person I did not have that good a view of women.

Can anyone recommend a few good references on learning more about women and the feminine side? 

Thanks for the feedback all

Thats because They are nothing Alike and Should Not Be Compared.
One is a Question of Orientation The Other Is Gender
they Are As Similar as Gay Natal men and Straight Natal Woman.

I Have Been Commented on as being a Gay Man and Personally i was pretty intensely insulted.
I have nothing against gay men. In fact Many of My friends are.

Let's Just Say I Would be In BIG trouble if I Ever Compared one of Them To a Drag Queen
Because They Are 2 things that Should not Be Compared

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  If someone is trying to figure out if they are a MTF transgendered person or a gay male, it might be a valid question.  I think there is some connection since both gender and sexual orientation involves how we relate to others.  I think that there are at least a few transgendered people who started out thinking that they were gay.

I'm very new to the transgendered community, but I have quickly found this to be a very hot button.

Perhaps it would be best if a moderator just closed this topic.  Its been a very difficult day and I'm just not up to dealing with being told what I can and can not think, say, do, or ask.

Quote from: Robertina on July 15, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  If someone is trying to figure out if they are a MTF transgendered person or a gay male, it might be a valid question.  I think there is some connection since both gender and sexual orientation involves how we relate to others.  I think that there are at least a few transgendered people who started out thinking that they were gay.

I'm very new to the transgendered community, but I have quickly found this to be a very hot button.

Perhaps it would be best if a moderator just closed this topic.  Its been a very difficult day and I'm just not up to dealing with being told what I can and can not think, say, do, or ask.

Well being TS is usually a self diagnosed thing, you realize your different pretty early on, for me it was 5.  Maybe some of the things that happened to me happened to you as well and from them you can figure out if your TS or not.  Also remember who you are attracted to doesnt matter, and in fact can change with hormone therapy, in my case as a guy i liked women, as a woman now i like guys, pretty weird huh, but it feels pretty normal to me.

For example do you identify with females more then males on tv as role models, when doing pretend play did you naturally fall into more female roles?  Like being the one that is rescued instead of doing rescuing, have you seen the opposite sex playing and wishing you could join them?  Do you feel uncomfortable in large groups of your own sex, but feel comfortable in groups of the opposite?  Do you have in thoughts of feelings of becoming the opposite sex?  Do you hate how you look in the mirror and wished you looked different, or avoid pictures or mirrors all together?  Do you for some reason feel depressed when you someone that is really good looking from the opposite sex, for example if your a guy you see a woman and your first impulse is your depressed, then the testosterone kicks in and you want some of that, lol?

If you see a trend then you could be TS.  Look back at your life, how you thought and felt, be pure about it and really think, why did i do that?  You will probably find your answer.

Just a general note and reminder to all to try to be patient with those new to our community. There is a learning curve of sorts before one knows and grasps all the concepts and terminology. We don't want to discourage those questioning.

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 04:19:50 PM
Well being TS is usually a self diagnosed thing, you realize your different pretty early on, for me it was 5.

The thing is, when you're five, it's so hard to even know what gender even means, or it can be. I'm pretty sure I didn't realize I was "different" when I was five; though I did soon after that. But it's a large step from "different" to "transsexual" or "a girl." I spent so much time in my life trying to figure out what it meant to be a boy or a man, trying to shoehorn my experience into that definition, that I was quite flustered, indeed. On top of that was the terrifying notion that I might be one of those awful transsexuals. How dreadful! The thought terrified me, and I did all I could to banish it from head.

In retrospect, I wonder how I -- or anybody else -- could have been so foolish. But that's what life and learning are about.

I don't believe the two-spirit nonsense.
far too many people who claim to be two-spirit or transgender have very definite one sexedness about them.
some of the men who got vaginas in my town are not female except by having the vagina.
the only people who claim MtF are like gay guys are the gang of bigots and probably closet gays who rule the Centre for Mental Health in Canada and various lesbian journalists.

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 16, 2010, 05:00:31 AM
I don't believe the two-spirit nonsense.
far too many people who claim to be two-spirit or transgender have very definite one sexedness about them.
some of the men who got vaginas in my town are not female except by having the vagina.
the only people who claim MtF are like gay guys are the gang of bigots and probably closet gays who rule the Centre for Mental Health in Canada and various lesbian journalists.

I think that is a bit harsh and I'm not sure how exactly you can make that judgement with any certainty, particularly when, if you look around you, in purely behavioural terms there are loads of natal women who behave in a pretty masculine way. Are they too just men with vaginas? I think not.

Surely the whole ethos of this place is that it is what we feel ourselves to be and indeed desire to express that makes us male or female, and not chromosomes, interest in flower arranging, attraction to males or indeed any of the other superficial and external signs that people try to apply. I'm lucky to have a reasonably good appearance and an excellent voice. I often see trans women who to my eyes look and sound like effeminate builders in drag, but I don't go around telling people that they are just men in dresses! I wouldn't be so cruel.

My first gender psychiatrist would not treat any woman who turned up at his clinic wearing jeans, or indeed anything less feminine that flowery and frilly dresses, but he was sadly misguided in his very superficial judgements and so is anyone else who tries to go down the misguided, and to me, morally questionable elitist pathway.

With respect it is how we feel inside that makes us who and what we are, and that, you may not actually see unless you know the person very well. So please be careful whom you judge. For a start you may do them an injustice, and for a second thing you probably don't see or realise the faults that they may observe in you, and indeed the way that they may judge you. For all I know you and I may, seen through the eyes of some of us here, both come across as ultra male. But hopefully no one will be so cruel as to say that.

So it really is best to "judge not lest ye be judged". Of course I don't know these people, but i still think that rubbishing them is a rather ill advised game to play.

Finally to come back to the original question I would say that mainly it is the desire to be seen as and treated as a woman, and indeed to have, as far as possible female sexual characteristics which makes the difference.

I never yet met a gay man who wanted rid of his penis, to have breasts, to lose his masculine physical strength and deep voice, and to be regarded by most men as psychologically almost a different species, yet that is exactly what most of us do desire, and therein, in a nutshell, lies the difference.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 15, 2010, 10:07:21 PM
The thing is, when you're five, it's so hard to even know what gender even means, or it can be. I'm pretty sure I didn't realize I was "different" when I was five; though I did soon after that. But it's a large step from "different" to "transsexual" or "a girl." I spent so much time in my life trying to figure out what it meant to be a boy or a man, trying to shoehorn my experience into that definition, that I was quite flustered, indeed. On top of that was the terrifying notion that I might be one of those awful transsexuals. How dreadful! The thought terrified me, and I did all I could to banish it from head.

In retrospect, I wonder how I -- or anybody else -- could have been so foolish. But that's what life and learning are about.

Of course when your 5 you dont realize it, its only after looking back do you see your behavior wasnt typical.  Why did i get a long with girls better then boys, why did i want to play with them? why is it when i watch voltron everyone boy's idol is the guy that pilots the red lion, but for me, its the girl that pilots the blue....?  There is a purity in being a child that you dont know what everything is, and your actions are just your own.  When you look back you realize you were like that from the beginning....

I must admit that some of the vitriol in this thread is quite surprising and off putting.  I'm starting to feel intimidated to ask any serious questions.

Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 11:42:27 AM
I must admit that some of the vitriol in this thread is quite surprising and off putting.  I'm starting to feel intimidated to ask any serious questions.

Dont be afraid to ask questions.  Just look at the posts that best help you, there will always be sideways discussion, but all in all i think we are all trying to help you.  Its interesting that you are unsure of what you are yet, you picked a female name for your avatar.  Robertina is female right?  So maybe unconsciously you might already know something about yourself.

i could be wrong though ^_^.  But, ask anything you like, i can give you honest answers based on my experience and what other people have told me. 

"Robertin"  is the Spanish diminutive affectionate form of "Roberto."  I added "a"  to make it more feminine, but then in English it sounds more like Robert-tina. 

Thanks for your encouragement.  Perhaps everyone means well, but some members can be quite harsh.  I'm very thankful to those members that have been understanding and supportive.

I just spent a lazy afternoon reading 'Self-Made Man' by Norah Vincent.  She's Amercian lesbian who decided to spend time trying to live as male and write a book about it. She quite often uses the MtF = gay remark.
The book is actually very interesting about all the differences she found between living as a lesbian and trying to appear as a straight male.
She found that virtually all the men she worked with were obsessed or obsessed about sex and though she got read as effeminate male a few times she made sure to tell people that she was not a transsexual but was  a ->-bleeped-<-.  Nowhere in the book does she meet and work with a transsexual but most of the men she met made sure they had no feminity about themselves sas this was the worst thing that could befall them.

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 16, 2010, 02:06:24 PM
I just spent a lazy afternoon reading 'Self-Made Man' by Norah Vincent.  She's Amercian lesbian who decided to spend time trying to live as male and write a book about it. She quite often uses the MtF = gay remark.
The book is actually very interesting about all the differences she found between living as a lesbian and trying to appear as a straight male.
She found that virtually all the men she worked with were obsessed or obsessed about sex and though she got read as effeminate male a few times she made sure to tell people that she was not a transsexual but was  a ->-bleeped-<-.  Nowhere in the book does she meet and work with a transsexual but most of the men she met made sure they had no feminity about themselves sas this was the worst thing that could befall them.

Men obsessed with sex? thats new? heh, that crazy testosterone, one hell of a drug.

a comedian once said "If women knew what was on mens minds most of the time, they would never stop slapping us."

I have been off the stuff for 1 year and 7 months...

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 16, 2010, 06:06:10 AM
I never yet met a gay man who wanted rid of his penis, to have breasts, to lose his masculine physical strength and deep voice, and to be regarded by most men as psychologically almost a different species, yet that is exactly what most of us do desire, and therein, in a nutshell, lies the difference.

THIS!
QFT