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Living In Stealth - Does It Hurt Us?

Started by Julie Marie, October 21, 2006, 12:40:57 PM

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0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

brina

Hiee,

  My 2 cents worth on the stealth topic. First let me say 'Each to their Own'.

  Does living stealth Hurt Us 'YES'. Being transexuals does not diminsh us in any way from being woman/females. Keeping this a secret and in the shadows only serves to show that even among our own it is considered un-savory. The more society see's us out in the open living normal every day lives like everyone else the sooner total acceptance is going to occur and the need for stealth will vanish anyhow. Its the same ole question of 'Who me sacrafice' so that others can reap the rewards, NOT a Chance. In some respects its not unlike organized labour when it first began. Perhaps some day ........... (sigh).

Byee,
  Brina
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SusanK

Lots of interesting perspectives, and much of what I agree with. I will, however, take an alternative view of this issue. First, there's degrees of stealth, depending on your private and public life, and it's very much a personal choice. I will add, however, if you look at the array of information available and the Internet, I will argue it's impossible to be stealth throughout your life anymore.

I make this argument for several reasons. First, more and more personal and private information is becoming computerized and available on-line, and much of supposedly legally private information is available through professonal investigators and others. In short, it's impossible to hide. I'm never arguing to come out, that a personal choice about yourself and your history, but I will argue to be prepared some day when someone asks you about your past.

If you don't believe this, have someone research your background, and they'll likely find a lot about your past including your court records, credit reports, old/new birth certificates (remember many states don't destroy original documents but simply amend them, archive the old one, and send you the new version), school records, employment records.  And once they get your SSN, a wealth of stuff is available (same applies for state and federal agency records, nothing is destroyed, only amended and documented).

And we can't hide our chromosones and genetics. The day you have a medical exam at a new clinic or for an emergency, and the doctor walks in and asks, "Gee, Ms. X, your records says your female. Can you explain this difference in our test results?"  And as my physician, who has many transclients, says you should be honest so you get the best treatment. Otherwise, you risk your health and possibly remove liability options if things go wrong.

As for being public, that's a different matter, but I find it difficult to understand when post-ops use the community to get through their transistion and then walk away from it because they don't want to be associated with it or who anymore. And then talk about the discrimination and lack of legal rights for transpeople or talk about the public's perception of transpeople with other groups (cd's, tg's, tv's, etal.). To me, when I hear this, it's a big "Huh?"

I'm not arguing about being an activist, I'm only arguing to remember you don't go through your transistion by yourself. But mostly, you can argue for the general view of human diversity, rights and protections. You can educate and inform those who express discrimination or oppresson. You can help those who ask. You can be an understanding friend to another. And so on. And know many are, it's just we need even more.

I also argue many of the best examples of transpeople are those who are stealth, and those are the ones who should be showing we're just normal people getting through out life. If more would stand up when and where appropriate, then the public would see we're not what they think, and we're just like them. I've thought about a book on this but it would take some of the stealth to come forward.

Anyway, my thought on a book is borrowed from the book by Mary Ann Halpin's book Fearless Women except titled "Women among us". It's just a thought at this stage but I think it would forward the view of transwomen in the public. At least my therapist agrees.

Just my thoughts, and sorry for the lengthy post. And thanks for your views. Thoughtful and informative reading.
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Ricki

I'll add cause for me its a source of stress because outwardly i am not transitioned and keep the ts inside then i feel somewhat fake and i guess to my compliment people generally warm up to me and love this funny personable guy.. But is that who i am?, I'd like to it to be a funny, personable girl.....
So a lot of times i feel weird like i am living an outward lie or am fake or double personalitied?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............. :-\
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Steph

Quote from: SusanK on November 16, 2006, 08:49:45 PM
...As for being public, that's a different matter, but I find it difficult to understand when post-ops use the community to get through their transistion and then walk away from it because they don't want to be associated with it or who anymore. And then talk about the discrimination and lack of legal rights for transpeople or talk about the public's perception of transpeople with other groups (cd's, tg's, tv's, etal.). To me, when I hear this, it's a big "Huh?"

I'm not arguing about being an activist, I'm only arguing to remember you don't go through your transistion by yourself. But mostly, you can argue for the general view of human diversity, rights and protections. You can educate and inform those who express discrimination or oppresson. You can help those who ask. You can be an understanding friend to another. And so on. And know many are, it's just we need even more.
...

All good points Susan, however I think that you are using a broad paint brush hon.  This may be true of others but I believe that many members of Susan's who have transitioned and are now post op while being members of Susan's often return or stay in touch with the group here.  We have many post op members and they have been, and continue to be a source of inspiration, knowledge and help.  I'm in transition yes, but I'm a woman not a transsexual, 'transsexual' is just a label I've been stuck with.

I am full time and I go to great pains to conceal the fact that I'm in transition.  I am completely out in the city where I live (I know a bit of a contradiction0 and many, many folks here know about "Stephanie" that "person" who works for the school bus company, and while several have asked for my dismissal because of perceived threats to their children, my company and the school board has stood behind, and I have refused to be intimidated by the threats.  It is through the support of the company, fellow employees, and the community that I have been so successful.  I am active in the GLBT community and through Queen's University I have actively participated to ensure that the diversity of our community is not over looked and I believe that being able live my life as a woman, being seen and treated as a woman does far more for us than being seen as a TS, as that is what I'm not.

Yes I maybe using the community to get through my own transition but at the same time I think that like others here, through my own transition I'm helping others here through their own struggles whether they be TS, CD, TV, IS etc.  I will be post op myself soon and it is my firm intention to remain active in Susan's, well, until 'Susan' fires my butt.
:)

Steph
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Melissa

I seem to really flip-flop on the whole issue.  If I think I'm going to go stealth, I seem to have somebody who learns of my past and completely accepts me and then I feel the other way.  The thing is I have lived my life in the way I have lived it and if somebody can accept you for the person you are regardless of history, then you have one more ally.  Personally I would rather have somebody know who I am and completely accept me than not know of my past and accept me.  It can really tell you who your true friends are.  However, I think it is also prudent to not go around telling anybody.  I never lie about who I am, I just withhold certain pieces of information about myself.  People can form their own conclusions about me based on what I have said.  If they figure out I am TS, the best thing I can do is to not hide it and act like it's something to be shameful of.  So, I still think I will live in a balance between being out and being stealth, but it will be more stealth than out.

Melissa
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Refugee

#45
What is stealth really?  The whole point of us transitioning from one outward presentation to the other is to remove the barriers from how we perceive we should be living our lives.  I mean no one grows up thinking "I'm a TS", its a phase we have to go through to get to a point where we can look in the mirror and say "I'm a X" and acutally believe it.

Why would I want to live the rest of my life as a TS?  Once I'm done, I'm a woman, plain and simple.  Wait I already am, I just need to tweak my bod a little.
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SusanK

Quote from: Steph on November 17, 2006, 06:12:41 AM
All good points Susan, however I think that you are using a broad paint brush hon.  This may be true of others but I believe that many members of Susan's who have transitioned and are now post op while being members of Susan's often return or stay in touch with the group here.

Thanks, and it is partly a broad brush what we I see and read generally, and what I know from the local community. I'm not really active in the community (still in transistion and more an "independent" person), but my therapist leads local groups (~20 years). She said that except for the occasional meetings or special presentations post-ops rarely if ever attend support groups, and in their view, rightfully so because they're getting on with their lives, but at the same time the don't return the help they had during their transistion.  She say it seems the few who do stay feel burned out after a few years because they want to get on with their lives.

She has an interesting theory from her experience with both ftm and mtf groups. She thinks lesbian groups tend to be supportive due to the general nature of women being supportive, and most mtf's come from a male/male-like socialization of being competitive and have to learn to be supportive. She said it also may be from the public's less favorable view of mtf's and many just want to live as normal women, quietly forgetting their past association with groups.

As for this groups like this one, it's both helpful and necessary, but it's not really "out", it's like sitting in someone's living room talking (ok, a really big living room). I would guess like many other forums, there are a small percentage of active people, a small percentage of occasional people, and the big percentage of the silent.  Part of this is because as some have noted elsewhere, most of the forums have been compromised and people don't want to post anymore.

Just my view of things, and still an interesting discussion.
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Sheila

Susan,
  I like what you have said. I really don't believe that you can hide from your TS background. I also believe that I'm totally female, but a lot of my records, like you say, have alias's with them. If you are pulled over by a police officer he will find out as your license will reflect that when he calls if for any priors. When you go for a new job, they will ask if you have had any alias's and if you say no then you will be lying on your application. That will terminate you right now. We are in the communication era and it does help us but then it can hurt too. Only being honest will you succeed. You don't have to tell everyone you meet, but you have to be honest with yourself and certain people. I am stealth in the fact that I go out and do my daily routine as female as I should and no one else knows. When I go to the doctor, they know of my past. My employer knows of my past and some people who I work with. I have found that I don't get my name spread around the bus shop anymore. There are new employees who don't even know that my past was male. I'm not ashamed of saying my wife is Patricia and that we have been married for 37 years and we have two children, I'm very proud of that fact. I'm not ashamed of my past 35 years as a meatcutter as it afforded me to be who I am now and the house I live in and that I have supported a wife and two children. No, I don't go out and tell anyone about my past as it is none of their business, but in the same sense I'm proud of who I am and will not hide from anyone any more. Yes, we can live as women and be very normal and fit in. Live your dreams. Susan, write your book and I will buy it. Cindi wrote a book and I'm waiting for it to come to Barnes and Noble so I can read it.
Sheila
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cindianna_jones

Sheila, the book is available from Barnes and Noble in their online store.  Also, you can get it from a brick and mortar shop but you'll need to request it by the ISBN number which is: 978-1-84728-942-1

It's likely not a title that they will carry on the book shelves due to the subject material.

Cindi
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Refugee

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 17, 2006, 04:13:11 PM
Sheila, the book is available from Barnes and Noble in their online store.  Also, you can get it from a brick and mortar shop but you'll need to request it by the ISBN number which is: 978-1-84728-942-1

It's likely not a title that they will carry on the book shelves due to the subject material.

Cindi

Once upon a long time ago I worked at a B&N.  We had a "Gay and Lesbian" section as well as a "Womens Studies" section, so its possible it might be available in the store.  Of course they're going to carry titles that are selling and that title might not appeal to enough people to make it worth stocking, but they wouldn't stock it just becuase of the subject matter.

If anyone remembers B&N was the bookstore protested becuase they refused to remove the Jock Sturges book of "artistic" pictures of naked boys and girls so I don't think they'd be afraid of a TS book.
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Ricki

Hey Melissa... I particularly like a section of oyur post is resembles most of my feelings..
QuotePersonally I would rather have somebody know who I am and completely accept me than not know of my past and accept me.  It can really tell you who your true friends are.  However, I think it is also prudent to not go around telling anybody.  I never lie about who I am, I just withhold certain pieces of information about myself.  People can form their own conclusions about me based on what I have said.
Except when i hod back some i either think I'm cheating myself or cheating them somehow?
You know conversly while i sit here and think say a friend of mine who all of the sudden said hey i gotta come clean and tell you i am gay, bi, crossdresser, etc.. and i've known you for a long time and i want to tell you who i am and still wanna be friends and want you to know the real me?
my response would be suprise probably sure, but willingness to accept or learn or understand, embrace, etc..
but coming from someone who is on that side of the coin i think for us it's a lot easier to accept and embrace and deal with and not judge too harshly but for those societal princes and princesses' well that door just seems to keep getting shut in our faces it seems..
Enough of my ramblings
Ricki
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Julie Marie

I've always felt MTF crossdressers will have the hardest time being understood or reaching an acceptable level of acceptance simply because so many remain closeted. 

When I thought crossdressing was the limit of my transgender personality I tried to get some support for coming out.  Get out and be counted.  But not necessarily have your picture on the front page of the local paper.  I was never able to get even a hint of support.  Most CDs simply didn't respond. 

Transsexuals don't have the choice of staying in the closet their entire lives.  There will come a time when you can't take it any longer and you have to be true to yourself.  Sooner or later, we HAVE to come out.  And when you do you will have to deal with whatever society has in store for you. 

We are part of society, but not very vocal or visible.  The squeeky wheel gets the oil.  If we choose to transition as quietly as possible, only those closest to us will know who we really are.  The rest will carry the image of drag queens or insane individuals who don't value their given sex organs.  We have to educate society about who we really are.  Until we do will be subject to the rules that kept so many of us in denial. 

Look at the gay movement.  Had they not come out in masses where would they be today?  Proabably still stuck in the closet.  So if we do nothing those coming after us will be no better off than we are.  If we do our best to educate society, we may not benefit as much as we'd like but those following in our footsteps will, and on and on.

The problem is we are in the early stages of transsexualism being understood by the general public.  Those who don't have the courage to stand alone can find some support but not much.  It's not like being pregnant and looking for someone who has been through it.  So, for those who do better with a large support group, you may prefer to stay in the background.  We are really at a time when only the boldest pioneers will stand alone and say "I am a transsexual and I'm proud of it."  What a courageous image that portrays!  Not sure I could do it though.  When societal pressures can't shake you from your beliefs, society stops trying.  Eventually they come to accept you.

I have thought many times of coming out at work.  There have been construction workers who have done it (not in my area) and lived to tell the tale.  But I could risk losing the position I have with my company if I do.  It's too complicated to explain, but I know that, even though the state of Illinois protects us, a scenario could be created that would land me back collecting unemployment.

I know I'm not alone with having feelings like this.  Coming out is a scary thing.  If my ex had stood by me and supported me I would have had a much easier time accepting myself and coming out to the world.  Somehow it gives better validation when a natal female stands by you and says, "I'm not bothered by this."  But we all have situations specific to our world and there's no one who can say you should or shouldn't do something.  All we can hope for it to someday walk outside and not wonder, "Will I be seen for who I am inside?"

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Ricki

julie i will end this evening by replyign to you, you are very very insightful!  what you said mirrors a lot fo what i think or how i think?
I know exactly what you are saying, woman we are tuned in! WeHeeeeeeeeee
When i look at things i think if someone responds to something i am less interested in what they said but why they said it? I think that is why i prod issues and want to push through things?  maybe that's me but GREAT post Julie!
alas i must go i rented Van Helsing and want to wind out the week with a few vodkas and some food and play with my dogs and my puppy!
luv
Ricki
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Ricki on November 17, 2006, 07:22:24 PM
alas i must go i rented Van Helsing and want to wind out the week with a few vodkas and some food and play with my dogs and my puppy!
luv
Ricki


Do you have enough vodka for another guest?  Give me the address and I'm there.  We can get drunk together.  ;D
Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Sheila

Cindi, I did order online through Barnes and Noble. I'm just waiting for it to show up. They didn't have it in stock as they said it has to be special ordered. I have bought other books at the store with the same subject matter. They said 5-7 working days.
Sheila
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DawnL

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 17, 2006, 07:13:36 PM
Look at the gay movement.  Had they not come out in masses where would they be today?  Proabably still stuck in the closet.  So if we do nothing those coming after us will be no better off than we are.  If we do our best to educate society, we may not benefit as much as we'd like but those following in our footsteps will, and on and on.

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual orientation not
their central identities as men or women.  Coming out as a transsexual lays bare our central identities and for MtF
transsexuals, the general perception is that we are men who want to be women.  We are years away from changing
that perception.  Most health professionals can't even get past that notion.  Fact is, we can't escape it ourselves.
Consider the most favorable definition of transsexuals: that we are males with female brains.  Maybe it's genetic or
some other form of birth defect, it doesn't matter.  Gaining acceptance as real women isn't helped by any of this.
I prefer that people think I'm just another woman.  If people find out, they find out, but I'm not telling anyone,
period.   My family actually told me when I came out that they wished I was gay, that they could deal with.  This,
this was too much.  I'll never be 100% stealth because I came out at work but outside of work I am.  Because of
FFS, none of my former clients recognize me. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 17, 2006, 07:13:36 PM
I have thought many times of coming out at work.  There have been construction workers who have done it (not in my area) and lived to tell the tale.  But I could risk losing the position I have with my company if I do.  It's too complicated to explain, but I know that, even though the state of Illinois protects us, a scenario could be created that would land me back collecting unemployment.

All that said, I never thought I could come out at work either.  I assumed it was the kiss of death for my business
so I found a new job and planned to walk away from my business.  As it happened, the job fell through from what
appeared to be trans-discrimination and I was forced to come out at work.  It was tough at first but it's working out.
Are you good at what you do?  Well liked?  These things will work in your favor.  I did file a discrimination complaint
with the local EOC and the final report said there was evidence of discrimination but insufficient proof.  This was with
a progressive organization who claimed to be trans-friendly (they had no trans employees).  You never know how
things will work out in the minefield of transition.

Dawn
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Refugee

Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 


Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.
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tinkerbell

Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 


Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

Minor point??? ???, I am sorry but there isn't any comparison between sex and gender, and this is exactly the kind of perception that Dawn talks about in her post.  Gender preference? I did not choose to be female, I was always female before transition, also during transition, and I am and will always be female.....I did not choose to become female, I simply changed my body to fit what I am.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
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Refugee

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 17, 2006, 11:13:17 PM
Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 


Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

Minor point??? ???, I am sorry but there isn't any comparison between sex and gender, and this is exactly the kind of perception that Dawn talks about in her post.  Gender preference? I did not choose to be female, I was always female before transition, also during transition, and I am and will always be female.....I did not choose to become female, I simply changed my body to fit what I am.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

People don't choose to be gay either, its just the way they are.  That's all I was saying.  So its not a sexual preference any more then its not about me preferring to be a girl.
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DawnL

Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM
Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM
I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women.
Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

I changed my post to "orientation".  Doesn't alter the message one bit.  Sorry, slip of the adjective.

Dawn
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