"The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian."

Thanks, Julie! I think this pretty much sums it up. 

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 14, 2010, 12:10:47 PM
Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

That is just wrong. The most manly and masculine and butch and macho gay men and the most girly and feminine and dainty and ladylike lesbian women transgress one of the most strongly-defended gender norms in this society. Moreover, the revulsion that many people feel toward transgendered people (of all varieties) is strongly tied up in that same norm. It's about sex.

[/quote]
Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi
[/quote]

Then start bloody well accepting already, if that's how you feel. But the fact that some group (read: every group) has haters and in-fighters doesn't mean the group should split up; it means the haters and infighters need to get over themselves and learn to behave.

By your logic, LG should ditch B, and L and G should split up too. Also, gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd, and radical urban dykes should split up with suburban lesbian moms. In fact, no group of people suffering from similar forms of oppression should ever bother to try to unite.

It's a recipe for failure.

You go, Alyssa!  Speechify!

True except that: gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd - well, the Castro Boys pretty much are the gay professionals.  I was there a few weeks ago with a friend of mine who was shopping and they had these T-Shirts in one of the stores.  Plain, white cotton (long staple Egyptian cotton of course) made in Japan, only $120.  Only professionals can pay $120 for a t-shirt.

Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2010, 09:36:57 PM
Only professionals can pay $120 for a t-shirt.

Professional fools, that is 

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 06:37:59 PM
Wow where to start.  First off, i love this discussion it really makes you think, i think that our pasts are probably influencing our ways of thinking which is really interesting.  You for example might have gotten a lot of help from the LGB community while i received none, some of the people i know have horror stories of the way they were treated as well, but i know there is always some bad seeds along with the good.

Glad you're enjoying it.
I'm having a great time with it myself
I really love a good debate, 'specially if it challenges me.
So thank you for that.

I have gotten zero negative experiences with the GLBT of Iceland. It's not even called "GLBT" really, it's called "Samtökin 78" And the they fight for the equal rights of anyone outside the heteronorm, using volunteers from within it's own fold.
The day the first trans-person joined them, they offered her the chance to come teach them about her life, her challenges, and what she needed help with.

Quote from: IzumiYes, do think the numbers are affected.  The reason being now you have people that dont really have TS issues getting in trouble and by association TS become part of it, also visibility as a group is lower since people thing LG first then BT last.  Also because of the T in LGBT, we are always referred to in the news as TS man or TS woman, and not a man with TS or a woman with TS, or even left out.  If things were correct then that article would be just about a woman who has child porn and not a TS woman that has child porn like it is now.  Are LGB fighting for your right to be called a man, and mine to be a woman or will i forever be a Trans woman?

I disagree with you. I do not think that T being a part of the GLBT is "why" a transsexual is called a transsexual on the news. The reason a person gets that tag is that people want to point out how the subject of a piece of news, especially when it's about lawbreaking, differs "from the rest of us". It's not because of he GLB that T gets pointed out whenever possible, in the news.

The local GLB fights for T rights just as much as any other equal rights for anyone outside the heteronorm.

Quote from: IzumiNo its a different kind of bigotry its not the same, our goals as the TS community is different from LGB.  Hate is hate, we can say all hate is bad then we should join the NAACP as well, because thats the same bigotry by definition.  Making it a sexual characteristic to the bigotry makes it an LGBT issue? Its all still hate, its all still ignorance.  If being a member of LGB is so great, how come everyone is spending so much time educating people about gay, straight, lesbian, but not so much about TS, i dont see that in schools.... If people dont understand the difference between a straight TS woman and a lesbian one, much less the facts out about it, how does that help our cause, most people think i am gay because they have no clue what its like being a woman with TS.  A lot of people just think we are cross dressers.  So when do we start teaching people about our issues? after they win or before they win the gay marriage laws?

How do our goals differ? Don't we all just want to be able to live the same life as everyone else? With the same access to the same rights as everyone else?
It is the same bigotry, rooted in the same bs. The arguments the bigots use against trans-people are frequently the same arguments they use against the GLB.

In the "equals-education" in Iceland, where GLBT folk go to schools and teach about GLBT issues, trans is included, specifically because trans-people stepped up and were willing to help write material.
Why is it up to someone else to educate about us?
We can start teaching people about us right now. Just because T stands with GLB doesn't mean we have to sit on our asses and wait for them to do it for us.

Quote from: IzumiYes you can love something you dont know, does your heart not ache when you people suffering? you dont know that but you know its painful for them.  Sometimes you help if you can sometimes you dont.  If you see a kitten on the ground whimpering do you not help it because you dont know what its like to be a cat?  Love and compassion for our fellow human beings is a fundamental emotion we have to survive as a species.  How selfish is that to say that helping you out of pity would be for the other person's benefit not yours.  Giving of yourself for others sake elevates you both, to not accept a gift like that when freely offered is kind of sad.  In today's society where selfishness is the norm its not often you get people who will give without expecting things in return even if it is an empathy to the pain you must be going through.  Those gifts should be the most treasured.

Empathy allows us to think about what we would feel if we were in someone else's position. This is a function of the brain. Mirror Neurons specifically.
It doesn't require us to have "Love" for another person.
I do feel a pang of pain when I see someone else suffer, but it's not because I care about them, it's because mirror neurons fire in my brain and I place myself in their shoes, and I care about me, thus the thought of that pain is "awful".
Cats I love, if it was a fly, or a spider, or a worm, I wouldn't feel a thing. But if it's a kitten, my emotional attachment to my cats would be the backing for the emotional reaction I have towards it. That and the human brain/instinct being geared towards "protecting young".

It's not selfish, it's realistic and based in factual science.
Technically, everything we do, we do because, on some level, it gratifies us. If giving to charity didn't give us a feeling of self worth, that we are "good people" for doing it, or any such thing, then we wouldn't give to charity.
It's how we work, as a species.
It's a good thing we get a positive something from doing something good for someone else, it is necessary for the survival of the species of course, but it means that there is no such thing as a 100% selfless act.
When people assume to know anything about my life, and choose to show me pity or sympathy or awe without any knowledge to back that emotion up, it's not done cause they "love" me, or have "compassion" for me, it's because they imagine that it would be hard for them, and they love themselves.

I don't need, nor do I deserve pity. Neither do I need, nor deserve awe.
I have a friend who is blind. When people pity him, he feels cheated, insulted even. These people pity him not because his life is hard, but because they feel that their lives would be, if they were blind.
He's got a great life. He plays guitar with two bands, spends every week-day doing what he loves (music) and every weekend making a party out of doing what he loves (plays a show, sings, has beer, women and more fun than I can comprehend). And then we sit at a café and someone comes up to him and tells him something about how "proud" he should be of being out in a café, and I watch his bodylanguage shift from "comfortable and having a chat" to "uncomfortable, irritated, humiliated".
Nothing insults him more than people coming up to him assuming to know "anything" about his life.
And I agree with him.

Quote from: IzumiA science continues it might eventually be up to code, I am in the same boat although to a lesser degree, but just because things down there arent perfect doesnt mean you not a man, plenty of men have Mr. Johnson go MIA for one reason or another and make due, but now they know how you feel.

I am no less "a man" for the sake of my genitals.
But these are symptoms of a condition that is treatable, but not 100% removable.

Quote from: IzumiRight now you cant, but in the future, who knows.  I also will never be able to bare a child, but i hope for the day i will, along with a lot of sterile women, and on your side, sterile men, not being able to father a child doesnt mean your not a man.  Anyone can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father!

Again, I didn't point these things out as reasons why I'm not a man.
I have a daughter as is.
I love her to bits, and I'm being the best mother to her a man can be.

Quote from: Izumi"I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way."
-yeah you will, once you are free from being TS, whatever that is for you, but if you never believe you will be rid of it, you never will.  Aren't you living like a man now? thats pretty much how it is.  All the FTM's i know seem like regular guys to me, i couldn't tell the difference.

No, I will never know what it's like.
I can not change the past. No one can change the past.
I can't know what it's like to be born a perfectly healthy baby boy.
I can never know what my life would have been like if I had been born with a penis.

Who I am is forever coloured by the life I've lived, and I can not change the past.
I choose to live with it, all of it, the good and the bad.
I will own my life, not the other way around.

Quote from: IzumiI think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US.

It is of course, our responsibility, to reach out and teach people about us.
If we can't teach the GLB, a smaller group we already stand with, how are we going to teach everyone else?

The T part of the Icelandic system has made a point of teaching their allies from day one, maybe that's what needs doing over there?

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 15, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
Exactly!!!! The only reason we may seem to have the same enemy is BECAUSE people assume GLB and T are all the same BECAUSE they are lumped together in this generally inaccurate term. Ask your local cis-lesbian what an RLT is and she will probably look at you like you have two heads.

Actually, I mentioned "real life experience" at one of my earliest meetings and got a "oh, that's where you have to be you all the time right?" from the cis-lesbian sitting across from me. 
Maybe, instead of complaining about what they don't know, trans-people should be better at teaching?

I agree with everything you said in that post Miniar!

We should be the ones teaching people about our cause, because it's really not the job of anyone else but us! I've often told people that TG/TS people need more voices, someone to help speak for us, let the public know we exist and begin teaching the masses the truth about us.

I really have no problem with T being included in GLBT; I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it. As long as we live outside the established and accepted "gender norms" we all have essentially the same battle to fight. Some may say "but we ARE men and women" but to the general public, if you are a GENETIC male you should marry and procreate with a GENETIC female, end of story. Sadly, that's just how it is. We do not (no matter how much we wish we did) fit that specific dynamic. I am NOT a genetic female, and I never will be. My body, through hormones and surgery may be made to LOOK very female, but in all honesty, I will still never BE as female as a genetic female. My DNA still says MALE. My skeleton and bone structure all says MALE. Even once I fully transition, if I marry a genetic male, I am still outside those norms. There's just no getting around it.
So, because of all that, I am NOT living within the established "gender norms" and therefore I feel my "place" so to speak is with others who also live outside those gender norms. A masculine genetic gay male is still living outside those norms because they have relationships with other men. The same is true for "girlie" genetic female lesbians, and so it goes with bisexual people. Nitpicking over the differences between SEX and GENDER seems too much like an evasion to me. Some, for whatever reason, don't want to be included in the GLBT, and will therefore come up with all sorts of arguments against it.

I also agree that I will never know what it's like to grow up a genetic female. I mourn the fact that I never knew all the things that girls experience, feel, and see as they grow from a baby to a toddler to a child and beyond. Their experiences are so vastly different from a genetic males that I can't even begin to imagine it. I'll never have a "sweet sixteen" party, never hit (true) puberty and see my body develop from a childs to a womans, never get my first period, etc. My past is uniquely mine, I can't change it, I can't relive it, and there's no point in denying that it happened. My past helped mold and shape me into the unique individual I am today, and I feel that I would be a completely different person had I been born genetically female. I don't understand why some (or maybe all) therapists tell you to "pretend" you were born male/female and say things like "when I was a little girl..."
Isn't transition about being real and honest and being who you really are? How does denying your past, sometimes nearly a lifetime of a past, and then LYING to everyone about it (lying to yourself to boot) help you to "become" who you really are? And does this mean that if I meet a boy or girl and bring them home, my parents have to hide or throw out all my baby pics and other photos of me that show plainly that I was a little boy/young man as I grew? Sure, there was a girl inside all along, but still. Does that mean I have to convince my whole family to lie for me too, saying "when she was a little girl, such and such happened to her..." That to me seems counterproductive to what the therapy is supposed to accomplish.

I know many gay and lesbian people and they all seem to know pretty accurately what a trans person is, and how to treat one. They know there's a difference between a cross-dresser and a transgendered person, or a drag queen and a trans person for that matter. I don't know what sort of GLB people others have dealt with, but it must be in a really really tiny town where nothing at all ever happens.

I actually think that in a small way I am fortunate to be trans. I will appreciate my femininity more than a genetic female will. I have a unique road ahead that no other genetic female will ever travel, and to me the rewards at the end make it all worth while. I also think that this gives me a unique opportunity to open the eyes of people around me, and teach them something about humanity that they may not have otherwise known. Learning once and for all who and what I am has made me excited for the future in a way I never imagined. I think people need to stop looking at the cup as half empty. Stop concentrating on the negative and don't play the victim and wait for someone to fix things for you. There is nobody to blame for being trans anyway. It happened. Deal with it. Overcome it. Make it yours.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 15, 2010, 08:37:06 PM
"The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian."

Thanks, Julie! I think this pretty much sums it up.

There is a difference however, an effeminate man is still a man, his responses while tempered with his personality will be male, he will react male, and pretty much still be male.  A woman which has trans sexuality was never a man to start with her responses are the work of a feminized brain in conflict with a masculine body.  Her responses will be feminine but then must be hidden, filtered, then made fictional until such time as she transitions. 

Women and men think differently and react differently to things around them.  Even a butch woman is still a woman and while she may not show her outside feminine qualities, when she is alone or with close friends they may come out.  Women like to talk, men like to do, in terms of communication.  A well placed fist for a man can say more then talking ever will, and even make friendships.

Okay, so I just have to ask this...

Are gays upset about being identified (labeled) as gay because they are effeminite?

Are lesbians upset about being identified (labeled) lesbian because they dress masculinely?

Are any L or G people upset about being discriminated against because they have been labeled G or L because they crossed gender lines?

What is the long term advantage to denying L's and G's cross gender lines (and are therefore trans gender) is the better way to go in achieving equal rights and ending discrimination?

Just curious.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 15, 2010, 09:25:49 PM
That is just wrong. The most manly and masculine and butch and macho gay men and the most girly and feminine and dainty and ladylike lesbian women transgress one of the most strongly-defended gender norms in this society. Moreover, the revulsion that many people feel toward transgendered people (of all varieties) is strongly tied up in that same norm. It's about sex.


Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi


Then start bloody well accepting already, if that's how you feel. But the fact that some group (read: every group) has haters and in-fighters doesn't mean the group should split up; it means the haters and infighters need to get over themselves and learn to behave.

By your logic, LG should ditch B, and L and G should split up too. Also, gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd, and radical urban dykes should split up with suburban lesbian moms. In fact, no group of people suffering from similar forms of oppression should ever bother to try to unite.

It's a recipe for failure.

You are going to extremes here without seeing a bigger picture.  In schools everyone knows what gay is, everyone knows what Lesbian is, if LGBT are all so well represented how come no one knows the truth behind being TS.  Ask a high school kid or anyone on the street they will most likely call us drag queens or cross dressers.  You would think they would know a little about us from being in such a large organization, but they dont.  While LGBT communities are good for supporting individuals they dont seem to do much other then push the agendas close to them, what about TS agenda's? when will that start getting pushed...?  Do you honestly believe that after LGB get all their rights and benefits, they will continue the fight for T as well? 

I do believe that we should work together as separate groups because the structure is not their to pull our issues to the for front.  A lot of people just want TS to be labeled a birth defect so that insurance and getting documents changed will be easier.  Do you think winning gay marriage will at all make it easier for me to change my sex on federal and state documents? honestly do you?

That combined with the fact that not every LGB community receives T well.  Some wanting nothing to do with them or calling them posers who cannot accept they are gay or lesbian. 

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Post Merge: July 16, 2010, 07:50:54 PM

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Quote from: Miniar on July 16, 2010, 09:44:54 AM
...

You mentioned quite a few things but really didnt get closer to either end.  In your country they have laws that say you can teach people about what it means to be TS, but we dont even know what TS is really.  Is it genetic? a birth defect? what if i have it? what should i do?  etc... etc.. but thats beside the point, laws here are not the same, we dont have the same programs and in your country the LGBT community as a whole can get things done, in mine they seem to only worry about LGB issues and while thats all well and good... T gets left behind, the reason we cannot work on our own agenda is because we have to use our time working on theirs....  There is just so hard i can fight for gay marriage, i would rather make SRS type surgeries easier to get, get one free easy state/federal document sex change, and in general more funding finding out exactly what i have and how we get it, so that we have another tool that says look its not a choice its something your born with, see look here are the facts....

Also what if what you want is the heteronorm, many TS people just want to change their sex and live like hetero people do, a lot are stealth, being a visible part in LGB makes them instantly associated with ideas of things they are not.  Being T in the LGB sandwich makes me feel like the person that gets last for a team on dodge ball, somehow the other members shine while I get slammed in the face with the ball thrown by the kid on steroids. 

All those things you mentioned you could not do is quite possible with advances in technology it might even be in the past that we dont need human bodies at all and have bio-mechanical ones that are much better.  There might be a time where your mind is free to experience anything and everything you want, you never know with advances in technology.

I don't see what the problem is: we often work as separate groups already. There are lesbian advocacy groups and gay men's advocacy groups and bisexual advocacy groups and trans advocacy groups. And there are LGBT advocacy groups. It's not either/or.

Now, I don't think your average high school cretin is the standard we should use to gauge public understanding of LGBT issues. They'll always give you the response they think you'll least want to hear. But frankly, I think you are both overestimating the mainstream understanding of G, L, and B, and underestimating the mainstream misunderstanding of T.

As for T support by LGB? Well, sure some individuals or groups suck at it (Barney Frank; HRC) just as some T groups suck at LGB support (HBS/WBT, etc.). But at my university, practically all the advocacy done by LGBT groups goes toward T causes  -- gender-neutral bathrooms, campus non-discrimination policy, university name-change issues, access to medical care at the student health center, etc -- and practically all the T advocacy comes from LGBT groups, not T-specific groups. Not only do I believe that the LGB, having gained some meaningful measure of protection of their rights, will continue to fight for the T; I see it happening right now.

And here's the bigger picture: When we define ourselves defensively, that is, in reaction to the misperceptions of the privileged, we lose the argument from the very beginning because we cede the right to define the grounds of the argument, when the whole problem is the grounds, the ability for mainstream culture to dehumanize certain people by defining them as "other."

As you say, "not every LGB community receives T well." Well, no kidding. Not every T community receives LBG well. Not every ABC group receives XYZ well. That's no reason to quit; that's reason to get the morons in ABC to extract their crania from the crushing pressure of their sphincter muscles. The question is, what's their problem? Why can't they be more accepting of other oppressed and marginalized groups?

The answer: They are buying into the oppression that they are trying to escape. Most likely, they are afraid of what the oppressors, the privileged, the "normal people" might think: they are afraid of guilt by association. And that's usually because they feel guilty about their identity, having internalized some of the normative ideologies and carved out a special exception -- "We're just like straight people, except we just happen to prefer romantic partners of the opposite gender of what you expected," or "We're just like cis people, except we happen to have this birth condition in which our brain is matched to the opposite gender of what you expected."

I didn't happen to be anything. I am. And if someone thinks I'm some kind of pansy or ->-bleeped-<-got or whatever because I'm hanging around with a femmy gay guy, then they can go to hell. And I'll tell them so. And anyway, my case isn't strengthened by keeping away. That would just make me seem weak and afraid.

As it is now, many LGBT groups recognize that the T is the element that unites them all. Let's not let perfection be the enemy of good.

I'm in this for the long haul: until my identity isn't questioned nor my humanity doubted regardless of whom I choose stand beside, I am not free, and neither are you. That is the big picture.

"There is a difference however, an effeminate man is still a man, his responses while tempered with his personality will be male, he will react male, and pretty much still be male.  A woman which has trans sexuality was never a man to start with her responses are the work of a feminized brain in conflict with a masculine body.  Her responses will be feminine but then must be hidden, filtered, then made fictional until such time as she transitions.

Women and men think differently and react differently to things around them."


Woah that is a HUGE generalization. First of all, how are you defining male and female, masculine and feminine? You can't. There is way too much variation among people to categorize them as such.  The whole reason men are labeled "effeminate" and women labeled "butch" is because they defy gender stereotypes--effeminate males do not, in your words, "react male." They act in a manner that our culture deems "feminine."

Simply awesome précis of the problem and the solution there Alyssa.

Kat give you a well deserved golf clap.

It's too bad that labels tend to tear communities apart. 

I wish GLBT could rebrand as the "Gender Freedom Coalition" or something like that.

Quote from: Izumi on July 16, 2010, 07:30:03 PMYou mentioned quite a few things but really didnt get closer to either end.  In your country they have laws that say you can teach people about what it means to be TS, but we dont even know what TS is really.  Is it genetic? a birth defect? what if i have it? what should i do?  etc... etc.. but thats beside the point, laws here are not the same, we dont have the same programs and in your country the LGBT community as a whole can get things done, in mine they seem to only worry about LGB issues and while thats all well and good... T gets left behind, the reason we cannot work on our own agenda is because we have to use our time working on theirs....  There is just so hard i can fight for gay marriage, i would rather make SRS type surgeries easier to get, get one free easy state/federal document sex change, and in general more funding finding out exactly what i have and how we get it, so that we have another tool that says look its not a choice its something your born with, see look here are the facts....

Also what if what you want is the heteronorm, many TS people just want to change their sex and live like hetero people do, a lot are stealth, being a visible part in LGB makes them instantly associated with ideas of things they are not.  Being T in the LGB sandwich makes me feel like the person that gets last for a team on dodge ball, somehow the other members shine while I get slammed in the face with the ball thrown by the kid on steroids. 

All those things you mentioned you could not do is quite possible with advances in technology it might even be in the past that we dont need human bodies at all and have bio-mechanical ones that are much better.  There might be a time where your mind is free to experience anything and everything you want, you never know with advances in technology.

I can not re-write the past. Advances in any field of technology will not change that.
Not in my lifetime either.

You aren't legally prohibited from telling people about being transsexual.
You aren't legally prohibited from teaching other people about your personal experience.

I consider transsexualism, at least for me, to be a matter of a body brain mismatch. I consider myself to have a male-gendered brain in a female based body. I explain, when I talk to a person, that not everyone has the same idea of what/why it is.

You aren't forced to devote your time to fighting for same sex marriage. You can choose to address other issues, within and outside of the glbt setting.

LGBT are all members of one group because they are all trying to change what it means to be a particular gender.   The vary narrow stereo typical man was born with a penis, is attracted to women, and presents himself in a manly manner.   The very narrow stereo typical women was born with a vagina, is physically attracted to men, and presents herself as effeminate.    Members of the LGBT community do not fit these stereo types and according to very those who defend these stereo types can never fit into these communities.   Bathrooms can be shared bathrooms or just for stereotypical women or stereotypical men.

Fortunately for mankind human communities never fit these plutonic stereotypes.    But there has been different amounts of social pressure to live like we do while we are in public.    The LGBT communities around the world have suffered much to get rid of the laws that enforce conformity to that stereo type.    According to this stereo type, I as a MtoF transgender can never be a real female no matter how much I changed my body and mannerisms.    At some time in all of my relationships in order not to offend someone, I would have to disclose that I had been born male.

None of us will ever have true freedom until transgenders of every kind have total social acceptance and freedom.    These are not special freedoms for a special group but freedoms for all genders.   



Anyway this is just what I think and how I feel.

I haven't been here in a very long time, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have yet to be treated as anything other than another lesbian by lesbian women.  Maybe someday my bubble will be popped.
So, my personal take on this is, transsexuals are part of the queer community in general.

Quote from: Miss Bev on July 18, 2010, 05:27:19 PM
I haven't been here in a very long time, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have yet to be treated as anything other than another lesbian by lesbian women.  Maybe someday my bubble will be popped.
So, my personal take on this is, transsexuals are part of the queer community in general.

But i am straight~

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Post Merge: July 19, 2010, 12:44:23 PM

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Quote from: michelle on July 18, 2010, 01:45:59 PM
LGBT are all members of one group because they are all trying to change what it means to be a particular gender.   The vary narrow stereo typical man was born with a penis, is attracted to women, and presents himself in a manly manner.   The very narrow stereo typical women was born with a vagina, is physically attracted to men, and presents herself as effeminate.    Members of the LGBT community do not fit these stereo types and according to very those who defend these stereo types can never fit into these communities.   Bathrooms can be shared bathrooms or just for stereotypical women or stereotypical men.

Fortunately for mankind human communities never fit these plutonic stereotypes.    But there has been different amounts of social pressure to live like we do while we are in public.    The LGBT communities around the world have suffered much to get rid of the laws that enforce conformity to that stereo type.    According to this stereo type, I as a MtoF transgender can never be a real female no matter how much I changed my body and mannerisms.    At some time in all of my relationships in order not to offend someone, I would have to disclose that I had been born male.

None of us will ever have true freedom until transgenders of every kind have total social acceptance and freedom.    These are not special freedoms for a special group but freedoms for all genders.   



Anyway this is just what I think and how I feel.

Well thats not entirely true, i have seen a woman go totally stealth get married and is still married for 10 years and her husband has no clue.  She transitioned at 16.  She destroyed all her old documents and had a very small paper trail to start with, and since all her documents were changed really early in life, not many people know she is TS. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 12:40:01 PM
But i am straight~

But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

Quote from: Miniar on July 17, 2010, 02:12:07 PM
I can not re-write the past. Advances in any field of technology will not change that.
Not in my lifetime either.

You aren't legally prohibited from telling people about being transsexual.
You aren't legally prohibited from teaching other people about your personal experience.

I consider transsexualism, at least for me, to be a matter of a body brain mismatch. I consider myself to have a male-gendered brain in a female based body. I explain, when I talk to a person, that not everyone has the same idea of what/why it is.

You aren't forced to devote your time to fighting for same sex marriage. You can choose to address other issues, within and outside of the glbt setting.

Well, i just hope everyone still sticks around to help us after they helped themselves. 

I dont know, I just dont see myself fitting in to the LGBT, I am not lesbian, i am not gay, defiantly not bi.  I am a straight woman born with trans sexuality, which i just see is a disorder.  Everyone else identifies as Lesbian, Gay, or Bi, and even Trans, but personally i hate the term TRANS SEXUAL.  It paints with a broad brush and categorizes every Woman and Man living with Transexuality as a TRANS SEXUAL and not a man or woman.  TS implies neither one or the other, between both.  I hate that.... 

Its like someone having leprosy and calling them a leper, i dont think that nice, and implies that your less then human in some way...  So that also a reason that i hate T in LGBT because now T = Trans and all of us are now Trans to the public, not women or men, just Trans... i hate that.  How come I is not up there also? dont intersex people also need rights?  It seems strange that T is up there but no I.... Are intersex people treated with the same stigma as we are? or do we get it more because we are more visible?

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Post Merge: July 19, 2010, 12:03:12 PM

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Quote from: cynthialee on July 19, 2010, 12:45:18 PM
But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

So just because someone attacks me its a hate crime? what if they dont know, they just see another woman, and target me because of that hoping to steal my purse and mug me.  There are always people who hate other people, all we need to be is different, another religion, weaker then them, etc... Laws are already in place to protect people from that.  If someone attacks me, regardless of what i am, they get in trouble.  Why should the punishment be more or less just because i am someone with TS?  All crimes are hate crimes.  Most likely "Hate" groups want to beat anyone up is because their lives are so crappy they want someone to blame for their sad state.  Even if there was no such thing as LGBT in the world, someone would find something to kill another person over, its in our nature, and when we cant think of anything, we just make stuff up to fight about that isnt even tangible.