We women are better, we just can't prove it because men kept us down.  So, where is that superiority?  I mean if a bunch of stupid guys managed to do that to all the women and still have time left over to invent ESPN, where exactly does that superiority come into play?

Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
We women are better, we just can't prove it because men kept us down.  So, where is that superiority?  I mean if a bunch of stupid guys managed to do that to all the women and still have time left over to invent ESPN, where exactly does that superiority come into play?

It's a combination of exploiting fear and basic instincts, in addition to the world at large, for a very long time, being an extremely hostile place.  With eyes on the future, we're looking at a coming age where the increased complexity of society, and the very real, very severe existential risk posed to humanity by the existence of WMDs and modern technology, is going to need a "woman's touch".  That is to say, if we go on building societies around posturing, dick-measuring, male dominance/delusion/ego, then the human race has the life expectancy of about another half-century.

If feminine thinking (note, that isn't just women, that is what is characterized as "girly" thinking) starts to become more pervasive, we have a better chance at maintaining peace and stability as a race.  The answer is empathy, sharing of feelings and emotions, being able to truly feel and understand one another, things femininity and feminine thought strive towards.

Traditional male behavior is toxic to the world at this point.  It has a lot less to do with men and women than it does with male and female modes of thought.

Edit:  Note to the OP, that is what femininity is to me! 

Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".

Quote from: Omika on July 15, 2010, 12:13:37 PM
It's a combination of exploiting fear and basic instincts, in addition to the world at large, for a very long time, being an extremely hostile place.  With eyes on the future, we're looking at a coming age where the increased complexity of society, and the very real, very severe existential risk posed to humanity by the existence of WMDs and modern technology, is going to need a "woman's touch".  That is to say, if we go on building societies around posturing, dick-measuring, male dominance/delusion/ego, then the human race has the life expectancy of about another half-century.

If feminine thinking (note, that isn't just women, that is what is characterized as "girly" thinking) starts to become more pervasive, we have a better chance at maintaining peace and stability as a race.  The answer is empathy, sharing of feelings and emotions, being able to truly feel and understand one another, things femininity and feminine thought strive towards.

Traditional male behavior is toxic to the world at this point.  It has a lot less to do with men and women than it does with male and female modes of thought.

Edit:  Note to the OP, that is what femininity is to me! 

I think this is a pretty good summary. I'd like to add that this empathic "feminine" approach to the world's problems is the biggest threat to masculinity because it means less power, violence, and dominance. In a civilized society people have equal representation regardless of their size, lineage , or sex. That is why as women throughout the world are gaining a voice, there are crazies who want to go back to a time when it was easier to control and dominate others rather than meeting the demands that result from having rights.

As Omika stated, this is all femininity and masculinity thought processes and in my opinion has nothing to do with sex. I don't think the world can advance with old-fashioned destructive thought processes typical of "masculinity". There should be a combination of the positive masculine and feminine traits. Assertiveness without violence, confidence with respect, consideration without passivity, adaptivity without submissiveness, independence while being a team player.

Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".

*claps* ^.^

I'm not sure that this is a male/female argument as much as a tribal/global argument.  And if so, then it is getting off track.

- Kate

It's apples and oranges, Mars and Venus. Feminine energy is very different than its male counterpart. We are the chalice, the vessel, the receptive yin principle representing passive strength, like the flowing waters that wear down the great mountain, or the patient and steadfast root that grows through and breaks the solid rock. We are the graceful willow that bends with the wind and so outlasts the storm, while the stolid and stoic oak lies broken on the ground. If men are the swords, women are the sheaths that cover and contain them. Everything about being a woman is different. I don't have to resort to traditional male behaviors to prove I'm strong or capable. In softness (like water) I am stronger than mountains, and in my cry baby heart lies the intuition that unfailingly guides me along the paths I should walk. Viewing as weakness a woman's softness and greater capacity for emotion is a fool's mistake.

edited to add: I don't believe women or men are cookie cutter cut-outs. What a woman is, is me. The things I do are the things women do because I'm a woman and I do them. We are all simply ourselves, not stereotypes.

Very beautiful and well put, Fairygirl.  I like the image of the receptive chalice.

Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 11:31:16 AM
Very beautiful and well put, Fairygirl.  I like the image of the receptive chalice.

Ditto. You're a lovely poet as well as artist, Chloe.

I like the image of the receptive chalice.

It's not exactly her novel idea, matter of fact its the basis for The Da Vinci Code, which is almost as great a bit of plagiarism as the early books of the Bible are from the Babylonian text of Gilgamesh .

But, if you find that fascinating - and many do - read the original (particularly the first half, which is beyond brilliant):

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future by Riane Tennenhaus Eisler

Always try to find the real thoughts, not the pale replica.

Yes woman as the chalice is an ancient idea. My imagery is inspired from my reading of the Tao Te Ching, which aspects apply well to the idea of strength in softness. What it means to be a woman is to simply be one.

Beautiful poem Fairy Girl.

I think our western society could learn a thing or two about balance from Taoism. 

I don't want to breach any rule (if I am, please delete mods) but the chalice imagery also brings to mind the time when in church, the priest raises the chalice above his head in adoration, then places it on the altar and genuflects, kissing the altar.  I'm not a church goer anymore, but I am still a bit attracted to some of the ritual (even if I read non-patriarchal things into it).

Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".

Thank you!

Quote from: FairyGirl on July 17, 2010, 07:14:27 AM
Yes woman as the chalice is an ancient idea. My imagery is inspired from my reading of the Tao Te Ching, which aspects apply well to the idea of strength in softness. What it means to be a woman is to simply be one.

I couldn't agree more. Even from an androgyne point of view. Wish I could have understood that more when I was younger. Strength in softness, to simply be.
Isn't it nice that the image of the chalice is strong enough on it's own regardless of where it came from?

Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".

Amen to that!

--

Kat, so if I hated "The DaVinci Code," will I simply loathe "The Chalice and the Blade"?

Oh no, completely different stuff, you'll really like the first 1/3-1/2 of C&B which is all about the feminine centered nature of pre-Christian societies around the world, the 'future' part, that's more a matter of taste.

For me it simply means feeling "right" and not having to pretend, as I did as a man.. I'm still pre-everything and yet I feel more and more "right" as the days go by..

Pre-Christian? Do you mean that in the sense of conquistadores -- i.e., pre-colonial? Otherwise, wouldn't you have to go back further? If my smattering of recollections from high school world history serves me, I thought patriarchy was pretty well entrenched in Western civilization by the time Jesus got around to being born -- certainly in Greek, Roman, and Hebrew culture, and even (I thought) in ancient Egyptian and early Mesopotamian civilizations.

Elsewhere, that's a different story, though I patriarchy was pretty well established in China by the Han dynasty, too, as reflected in Confucianism -- or did Confucianism become more patriarchal with time?

(I don't mean to hijack -- I think this is relevant to the OP because it's about how our current notions of "what it means" came to be.)

I'm not sure about this chalice-and-blade business in general. I was being flippant about Dan Brown (my problem was mainly with the repetitive structure of his book -- cliff-hanger / narrow escape / not-so-shocking revelation, repeated ad nauseam), but I do tend to get a bit touchy about traditional gender constructions. Since I defy gender conventions for a living, since I work with a lot of men who don't even seem to notice what an exclusively male culture my work environment can be, and after seeing so many women get turned away from my field by various social pressures, I tend to hear statements of traditional gender roles as something of a threat.

I guess what's bothering me is this:

Quote from: FairyGirl on July 16, 2010, 06:27:14 AMI don't have to resort to traditional male behaviors to prove I'm strong or capable.

I agree -- neither do I. But there's something important missing for me: I don't have to avoid traditional male behaviors to prove I'm a woman. If I did, couldn't call myself my mother's daughter. When I do traditionally male things, I'm usually just following in her footsteps.

Hi.
To be a female & a woman is some what different than some think . you can be a female or born one . you grow in to a woman just one major detail i see missing here ,
tho no mention of having your womb . that to me is a very important part of being a real woman i am not because i can not have & give birth to my child.

Does every woman have that very hard wired detail going on inside of them . no of cause not yet most do & a time clock goes with that there is a time before, being ready a time to have or give birth.   & a time when that is over .
That says more to me as a person first & then as a woman proper .
  Im wired with that or was . yet still have my other side not as a true male just some of my wireing so i come with both sets of being both male & female / woman .
do i live in  a fantisy land thinking im a female / woman & my body says different or did .
for some yes & im tolarated, im not a girle girl ,
    yet my friends wont fully understand of cause they  have accepted who i am,   why i am & have accepted my self as a woman with a male background thats the best part ,being accepted .

    For my self i know what i am who i am . just not why i am. & that does not matter .

So can i say with out a dought im a woman , yes,   with the proviso of,  some parts missing ,or not complete ,
  One   detail for my self is i can express my self in a way that is becoming of a woman or leading up to, & that has allways been there.

...noeleena...