Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:00:57 PM
Izumi, you keep complaining how the LGB don't accept you. The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that the real issue is that you don't much care for LGB folk. Are you afraid someone might mistake you for a lesbian? Why should you care if they do?

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GOTH, the largest form of "the acronym" I have seen so far is LGBTQQIAA, where the Q's are "queer" and "questioning" and the A's are "asexual" and "ally." Why doesn't "queer" make sense?

Perhaps an example would help: I know a woman who tends to fit in much better with men, but is happy with her body and the way people gender her as female: she's cisgendered, definitely not trans, but that misses something. She dates men exclusively, but she much prefers to have sex with other women: she's straight, but not really. She's bisexual, kind of, but again, not really. She's not a lesbian. She's not pansexual. She doesn't fit into the convenient categories we have made: she's just queer.

So while I see "trans" as the unifying element within "LGBT," I think "queer" is even better: it accounts for all the people those "religious nutjobs" disparage. (Note that plenty of them are not religious at all -- Ayn Rand is a classic nut-case in point.)

By the way, don't underestimate the ability of people to dismiss intersexed people as freaks, in ways similar to the way they dismiss other member of "the acronym." See: "South Park"; hermapholite. See also: Curtis, Jamie Lee.

AHEM~

This week, the District Mayor's Office of GLBT Affairs released the "LGB Health 2010 Report," an examination of everything from smoking habits to sexual behavior in the gay community. This is the District's first report to address the health of lesbians, gays, and bisexuals in the District. But as the report's title makes clear, the transgender community has yet again been excluded from the official conversation on health.

looks like they took out T themselves.  Your right its all in my head.. they love us lots, i can feel the love.  Its as thick as the sarcasm.

I dont care if people mistake me for anything, i just think we can accomplish more if we focused more on just TS issues, notice i didnt say TG issues, TS specifically.  Being part of an organization that is as large as LGB is good but has its drawbacks, the minority issues (TS) issues take a side to accomplish efforts the majority feels are more important.  I dont mind working with the LGB community for certain things, uniting on some common fronts would be nice, and i have nothing against LGB as an organization, you will find good and bad anywhere you go.  I have gay friends, i have lesbian friends, i have Bi friends.  I have enemies too~ isnt life interesting? ^_^

I meant to add this as well in my previous post:

When you say being transsexual is a medical condition, I don't exactly disagree, but it's a very slippery notion. Trans people benefit from medical services, but you can't make a direct comparison to having tuberculosis or Parkinson's disease or pulmonary edema or a broken leg. If you consider either etiology or social stigma, being trans is much more similar to being gay than to having any of those conditions. The term "medical condition" is just plain fuzzy. So yes, being trans is a kind of medical condition, but it's quite a bit more than that.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 04:48:10 PM

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Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government, about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:39:15 PM
I meant to add this as well in my previous post:

When you say being transsexual is a medical condition, I don't exactly disagree, but it's a very slippery notion. Trans people benefit from medical services, but you can't make a direct comparison to having tuberculosis or Parkinson's disease or pulmonary edema or a broken leg. If you consider either etiology or social stigma, being trans is much more similar to being gay than to having any of those conditions. The term "medical condition" is just plain fuzzy. So yes, being trans is a kind of medical condition, but it's quite a bit more than that.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 03:48:10 PM

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Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

I agree. I mean, I do not think TS is a "medical condition" because our entire notion of what constitutes a "medical condition" is socially constructed. Homosexuality used to be considered a "medical condition" and many still think of it that way so yes, homosexuality and TS are definitely similar in that regard, and they are much more similar than transsexuality is to, say, diabetes or asthma.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 03:53:10 PM
I agree. I mean, I do not think TS is a "medical condition" because our entire notion of what constitutes a "medical condition" is socially constructed. Homosexuality used to be considered a "medical condition" and many still think of it that way so yes, homosexuality and TS are definitely similar in that regard, and they are much more similar than transsexuality is to, say, diabetes or asthma.

Yeah, of course there is, it seems that as studies continue TS is directly related to various genetic structures in our dna which prevent the proper binding of sex determining hormones.  MTF's cells reject fully or to a higher degree masculine determinate hormones and FTM's accept them more, they have various tests even that show the trends by a simple skin swab.  However more and more tests are being done and slowly the research is becoming more and more accredited.  So yes its medical in that it is a defect in the birth process caused by genetic variance.

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 04:07:44 PM
Yeah, of course there is, it seems that as studies continue TS is directly related to various genetic structures in our dna which prevent the proper binding of sex determining hormones.  MTF's cells reject fully or to a higher degree masculine determinate hormones and FTM's accept them more, they have various tests even that show the trends by a simple skin swab.  However more and more tests are being done and slowly the research is becoming more and more accredited.  So yes its medical in that it is a defect in the birth process caused by genetic variance.

You are approaching this from a very binaristic point of view. If TS was caused by hormonal "imbalance" then trans people would be born with intersex-looking genitalia, and most would be infertile. Furthermore, the BEST predictor of adult gender identity is not the amount of androgens that one was exposed to in the womb, but rather the gender that was assigned to them at birth.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 04:27:29 PM
You are approaching this from a very binaristic point of view. If TS was caused by hormonal "imbalance" then trans people would be born with intersex-looking genitalia, and most would be infertile. Furthermore, the BEST predictor of adult gender identity is not the amount of androgens that one was exposed to in the womb, but rather the gender that was assigned to them at birth.

Wait so now we are getting into nature vs nurture?  And people are born with various levels of intersex, TS might just be a milder form. We know that during gestation different specialized stem cells start forming the structures that will be become the child, its quite possible that one tissue be more affected and other be less, giving a male outward appearance and female neurological for example.  I didnt say it had to with androgens specifically thats just a part, the root cause being genetic in nature, a malformed strand of DNA can make it so hormones dont bind correctly to a cell or even reduce efficiency of the hormone to a point where little is done.  In a grander extent you get intersexuality on a lesser extent you TS, i believe both are various levels of the same spectrum.  Research tends to lead to that route from various sources i have looked at while researching myself and why i am the way I am.. 

We also know that drugs like DES which increase estrogen in the womb also prevent proper gestation and produce more MTF babies.  Thereby showing a link between TS and sex definitive hormone levels during the process of gestation and birth.

I definitely didnt choose it and i wished for a long time it would just go away but all did was get harder to deal with.

Someone asked me before my transition, if you could take 1 pill and you would be cured and not need to transition, you would think and feel like a normal man, would you take it?  I said hell yeah I would!  but there is no pill, the only treatment is this, so this is what i must do to live normally, working so far, so at least i am on the right track.

Mind you, I never said it's not a medical condition. I just said it's more than that. To me it's medical for the very real and important (and also entirely socially constructed) reason that I see doctors to help me deal with it.

I completely agree on binary thinking, though. Who says being trans is a birth defect? How do you know that it's not actually a selective advantage -- no, not to an individual, but to a society? If you presume that pre-agricultural societies didn't reject gender-variant people the way most do today, then all the hypotheses about how having some small number of gay people might have benefited a group certainly could carry over to all manner of gender-variant people. And even if it is a bona fide defect, maybe it's like sickle-cell anemia: fatal in most serious (homozygous) version, but life-saving in the milder (heterozygous) version (except that there are more than two trans alleles and many more phenotypes).

(Not that I'm much of a fan of evolutionary psychology -- I don't believe we have sufficient data to support reliable conclusions in the field -- but I do believe the questions in the field are valid and worth thinking about.)

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TL;DR: "Defect" is a social construct too; all you can say is that your own experience is negative.

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
Wait so now we are getting into nature vs nurture?  And people are born with various levels of intersex, TS might just be a milder form. We know that during gestation different specialized stem cells start forming the structures that will be become the child, its quite possible that one tissue be more affected and other be less, giving a male outward appearance and female neurological for example.  I didnt say it had to with androgens specifically thats just a part, the root cause being genetic in nature, a malformed strand of DNA can make it so hormones dont bind correctly to a cell or even reduce efficiency of the hormone to a point where little is done.  In a grander extent you get intersexuality on a lesser extent you TS, i believe both are various levels of the same spectrum.  Research tends to lead to that route from various sources i have looked at while researching myself and why i am the way I am.. 

Someone asked me before my transition, if you could take 1 pill and you would be cured and not need to transition, you would think and feel like a normal man, would you take it? 

What, pray tell, do you mean when you say "normal man"? It's not nature vs nurture so much as it is the binary sex model. There is no prototype of a "normal man" or a "normal woman," no prototype of what is feminine or masculine--it is our cultures that teach us what is "normal." Unfortunately we live in a culture where we only accept the existence of two sexes, male and female, but the truth is that there is way too much variation among people for there to be only two sexes. 

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:39:15 PM

Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government, about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

I have nothing against TG people that aren't TS, i dont understand their situation because i am not one, so i am not qualified to speak about them, all i know is TS so that is what i talk about, if i knew more i would probably discuss the topic more, perhaps after i educate myself a bit more.

I might form a TS organization later in life, right now I am a little busy, when i have more time maybe that will be a possibility, i also thought of running for office, only time will tell, but my want to have a family is priority above all that stuff, so it probably wont be until later in life, in the mean time i do what i can influencing the people around me.

Having it all be one big acronym makes people identify all these things as a single entity. (this is an example)  Lets say if they think 1 thing is weird then everything must be weird.  If you separate it then each part can have its own reputation be it good or bad, but the decision has already been made and by who's consent?  I am not the only TS person that feels we shouldnt be on there, and there are a lot.  In terms of uniting to fight bigotry thats a good goal, but its only one of many on the list.

Also i like when i point out something the response is, oh hes just a jackass and relatively dismiss it as a fluke, its true in your life good things came from being in LGB, but not everyone has shared in the same fortune, and some people even got just as hurt as they did from bigots....  Its a lot more rare, but it still happens.  In a TS group you might be kicked out because you are a horrible person, but you wont be kicked out because you have TS.  In LGBT, some groups just dont want you around because your TS....

Sorry to say that but it does happen.  I dont mean to offend i am sure there are nice people out there part of the community and do all they can to help, to those people i say thanks.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 07:04:16 PM

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Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 06:46:22 PM
What, pray tell, do you mean when you say "normal man"? It's not nature vs nurture so much as it is the binary sex model. There is no prototype of a "normal man" or a "normal woman," no prototype of what is feminine or masculine--it is our cultures that teach us what is "normal." Unfortunately we live in a culture where we only accept the existence of two sexes, male and female, but the truth is that there is way too much variation among people for there to be only two sexes.

You read to much into the world normal, i am speaking of normal in terms of the genetic sense of accepted variance.  A normal man would be what everyone assumes would be genetically XY free of TS and Intersex variance.  It doesnt mean he is not a psychopath, missing limbs, or has a number of other disorders, it just means he is free of the causes of intersex and TS, to which the public would refer to as... normal. 

In terms of the two sexes most identify as one or the other, with a few being andro.  So to fix the problem you simply add andro to the mix, wouldnt that fix it?

I personally believe to fix this problem once and for all adding the third option and adding perceptive sex during birth and actual sex later would fix a lot.  When your born your parents and the doctor give you a PS(perceptive sex), as you grow you learn what you are, and allowed 1 free sex change so to speak, where upon reaching age 18 you can change that with a simple to form to your legal sex which may or may not be different.  From that point on you will live as what you picked, and all old documentation will change along with your name if so desired.

eh but its only a dream...

Quote from: cynthialee on July 19, 2010, 12:45:18 PM
But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

Right, because people already use the acronym GLBT. If we had never been lumped together, people would not assume we are the same. Then we might have had different enemies.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 20, 2010, 07:32:54 PM
Right, because people already use the acronym GLBT. If we had never been lumped together, people would not assume we are the same. Then we might have had different enemies.

I am not sure if this was a sarcastic jab or not, but let me give you this example.  Many people accept intersexuality, they think oh they are just born with that, but they dont think that way for TS why? Is it be cause TS is bundled with T and LGB? people say that I is part of LGBT but its not visible as much.  Definitely people dont talk about intersex as much as they talk about TG which they just assume TS is apart of.

On a side note if intersex and TS joined up in an organization the name would sound pretty good.  Either TSI, heh, TSI almost sounds like a government agency to fight world terrorism, however i would avoid going the other route ITS.  People might get the wrong idea lol

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:55:28 PM

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 07:04:16 PM

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You read to much into the world normal, i am speaking of normal in terms of the genetic sense of accepted variance.  A normal man would be what everyone assumes would be genetically XY free of TS and Intersex variance.  It doesnt mean he is not a psychopath, missing limbs, or has a number of other disorders, it just means he is free of the causes of intersex and TS, to which the public would refer to as... normal. 

In terms of the two sexes most identify as one or the other, with a few being andro.  So to fix the problem you simply add andro to the mix, wouldnt that fix it?

I personally believe to fix this problem once and for all adding the third option and adding perceptive sex during birth and actual sex later would fix a lot.  When your born your parents and the doctor give you a PS(perceptive sex), as you grow you learn what you are, and allowed 1 free sex change so to speak, where upon reaching age 18 you can change that with a simple to form to your legal sex which may or may not be different.  From that point on you will live as what you picked, and all old documentation will change along with your name if so desired.

eh but its only a dream...

I don't think I'm reading too far into the word "normal." You keep talking about "accepted variance" and "to which the public would refer to as... normal." What I am trying to get at is that there is NO prototype for what is "normal." Who is to say what a "normal" man's chromosomes should look like, or how he should act?

And when you say that "most people identify as one or the other" you need to realize that we live in a society that only accepts one or the other. I don't think adding andro to the mix would help anything, because in order to have andro ("in between") there has to be male and female, and I do not buy into the male/female dichotomy because it simply does not exist. What I would really like to see is the entire notion of gender done away with, but that is a long ways off.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:55:28 PM
I have nothing against TG people that aren't TS, i dont understand their situation because i am not one, so i am not qualified to speak about them, all i know is TS so that is what i talk about, if i knew more i would probably discuss the topic more, perhaps after i educate myself a bit more.

You complain that people don't understand your condition, so perhaps you should try to understand other gender-variant people (those who deviate from cultural norms -- and you bet that includes TS and IS people). Also, if you don't understand their situation, how exactly can you be sure you're so different? I'm not saying you're not -- but maybe your similar in ways you thought you were different, or different in ways you though you were similar.
Until you understand those others categories a bit better, you don't have much backing up your claim to be in a category that is terribly distinct.

QuoteI might form a TS organization later in life, right now I am a little busy, when i have more time maybe that will be a possibility, i also thought of running for office, only time will tell, but my want to have a family is priority above all that stuff, so it probably wont be until later in life, in the mean time i do what i can influencing the people around me.

We're all busy, and we all have priorities. If the structure of activist groups is so important to you, maybe you ought to reconsider yours. Frankly, I think activism is a huge drag, and, yeah, I'm busy trying to make sure I get my degree one of these days -- and also, I'm busy screwing around on the Internet. But as long as my contribution remains as paltry as it is, I will try to avoid complaining about the activism others are doing on my behalf.

QuoteHaving it all be one big acronym makes people identify all these things as a single entity. (this is an example)  Lets say if they think 1 thing is weird then everything must be weird.  If you separate it then each part can have its own reputation be it good or bad, but the decision has already been made and by who's consent?  I am not the only TS person that feels we shouldnt be on there, and there are a lot.  In terms of uniting to fight bigotry thats a good goal, but its only one of many on the list.

You don't give people much credit, do you? Look, haters gonna hate. But I've only seen the reverse: people learn about the G and the L, and then they catch on to the B, and then eventually they get the T, and later they get to understand the different flavors of T.

But frankly, if anyone has legitimate reason to be worried about being seen as weird because (really?) some acronym lumps them together with social pariahs, well, it ain't us ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- freaks.

QuoteAlso i like when i point out something the response is, oh hes just a jackass and relatively dismiss it as a fluke,

No, you didn't read the rest. I said the report you mentioned was probably relating sex and health, and therefore wasn't pertinent to trans people specifically.

Quoteits true in your life good things came from being in LGB, but not everyone has shared in the same fortune, and some people even got just as hurt as they did from bigots....  Its a lot more rare, but it still happens.  In a TS group you might be kicked out because you are a horrible person, but you wont be kicked out because you have TS.  In LGBT, some groups just dont want you around because your TS....

Sorry to say that but it does happen.  I dont mean to offend i am sure there are nice people out there part of the community and do all they can to help, to those people i say thanks.

Was this in response to something? I am having difficulty parsing this.

What exactly have gay people done to you that is so awful? Your aversion to LBG folks must be coming from somewhere -- the usual sources is social conditioning of homophobia, but maybe there's some traumatic event in your past. I don't know.

I've seen plenty of kicking out of people based on identity politics within the T community -- most often within the TS part. So, yes, you can certainly get kicked out of a TS group because your understanding of TS doesn't fit with others. In fact, I feel as though you're doing just that, which is why I'm, arguing the point so persistently ...

... maybe even to the point you feel I want to kick you out. I don't; I just very strongly disagree with your politics.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
I don't think I'm reading too far into the word "normal." You keep talking about "accepted variance" and "to which the public would refer to as... normal." What I am trying to get at is that there is NO prototype for what is "normal." Who is to say what a "normal" man's chromosomes should look like, or how he should act?

And when you say that "most people identify as one or the other" you need to realize that we live in a society that only accepts one or the other. I don't think adding andro to the mix would help anything, because in order to have andro ("in between") there has to be male and female, and I do not buy into the male/female dichotomy because it simply does not exist. What I would really like to see is the entire notion of gender done away with, but that is a long ways off.

Our concept of normal and the world majority concept of normal is different.  Yes i agree with you normal is a subjective term and i believe that normal can be defined only individually, however the world sees normal as one thing or another, and even though we dont like it(including myself), thats the way it is now, until changed.

I am not sure the notion of gender can go away for legal reasons.  I give you this example with an FTM friend of mine, He has cysts in his uterus but legally hes fully male, he wants to remove it for medical reasons, they will do the operation, however, insurance wont cover him because hes a MAN and doesnt have a uterus.  Also other medical benefits can effect one sex and not the other.  Also would you have prisons with mixed populations of men and women, trust me that would be chaos.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 12:35:26 PM

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Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
You complain that people don't understand your condition, so perhaps you should try to understand other gender-variant people (those who deviate from cultural norms -- and you bet that includes TS and IS people). Also, if you don't understand their situation, how exactly can you be sure you're so different? I'm not saying you're not -- but maybe your similar in ways you thought you were different, or different in ways you though you were similar.
Until you understand those others categories a bit better, you don't have much backing up your claim to be in a category that is terribly distinct.

We're all busy, and we all have priorities. If the structure of activist groups is so important to you, maybe you ought to reconsider yours. Frankly, I think activism is a huge drag, and, yeah, I'm busy trying to make sure I get my degree one of these days -- and also, I'm busy screwing around on the Internet. But as long as my contribution remains as paltry as it is, I will try to avoid complaining about the activism others are doing on my behalf.


You don't give people much credit, do you? Look, haters gonna hate. But I've only seen the reverse: people learn about the G and the L, and then they catch on to the B, and then eventually they get the T, and later they get to understand the different flavors of T.

But frankly, if anyone has legitimate reason to be worried about being seen as weird because (really?) some acronym lumps them together with social pariahs, well, it ain't us ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- freaks.

No, you didn't read the rest. I said the report you mentioned was probably relating sex and health, and therefore wasn't pertinent to trans people specifically.



Was this in response to something? I am having difficulty parsing this.

What exactly have gay people done to you that is so awful? Your aversion to LBG folks must be coming from somewhere -- the usual sources is social conditioning of homophobia, but maybe there's some traumatic event in your past. I don't know.

I've seen plenty of kicking out of people based on identity politics within the T community -- most often within the TS part. So, yes, you can certainly get kicked out of a TS group because your understanding of TS doesn't fit with others. In fact, I feel as though you're doing just that, which is why I'm, arguing the point so persistently ...

... maybe even to the point you feel I want to kick you out. I don't; I just very strongly disagree with your politics.

Well, the beautiful thing is that we dont agree but we have a civil discussion about it, i dont want to kick you out at all i hope you think the same of me.  Two people having different opinions shaped by their lives, nothing wrong with that, it leads to good discussion and learning in which the people participating benefit with a higher level of understanding.

I guess the worst thing I saw was a TS woman getting harassed and a little roughed up by some gay people who said she was just a poser who could accept she was a gay man, but i heard worse.  Mostly i witness just getting not accepted in some LGB groups or sensing they dont want you there, not so much as before, times maybe a changing which is a good sign.

After a while i just decided i wouldnt deal with the LGBT stuff and just join my therapist's TS group, made up of TS and friends & family, ftm, mtf, and intersex mostly.  Friends/family range from gay or straight or lesbian, some Bi.  We dont do much to help each other out talk about our experiences in a pot luck, its a lot of fun and no problems ever happen since i have been coming, everyone seems nice and civil with differing political views.   Some people think the same way you do, others do not, but its still a pleasure seeing them once every month and we always have a good time.

oh i almost forgot, the report dealing with sex and health doesnt apply to TS? eh?  I would think it does, we do have sex you know, some gay some straight. ^_^  Unless their a monk or something....

Quote from: Izumi on July 22, 2010, 12:20:31 PM


I am not sure the notion of gender can go away for legal reasons.  I give you this example with an FTM friend of mine, He has cysts in his uterus but legally hes fully male, he wants to remove it for medical reasons, they will do the operation, however, insurance wont cover him because hes a MAN and doesnt have a uterus.  Also other medical benefits can effect one sex and not the other.  Also would you have prisons with mixed populations of men and women, trust me that would be chaos.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 12:35:26 PM

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The insurance issue is exactly what I mean when I say sex categories should be eliminated. Your friend is legally a man so his insurance will not cover his operation. That is because, according to our binary gender system, man=no uterus. However, your friend is a man who has a uterus. In other words, having a uterus does not preclude you from being a man, and it does not make you a woman (I'm sure you could attest to this personally). Anatomy does not determine sex, one's identity determines one's sex; in fact, the ONLY thing that ALL men have in common is a male identity, and the only thing ALL women have in common is a female identity. If we lived in a society free of the constraints of sex categories, your friend's surgery would be covered.

As far as prisons go, they should be segregated based on body strength and size. A person who is a bodybuilder should probably not be put in a unit with a person who weighs 90lbs, regardless of gender identity.

Quote from: Izumi on July 22, 2010, 12:20:31 PM
Well, the beautiful thing is that we dont agree but we have a civil discussion about it, i dont want to kick you out at all i hope you think the same of me.  Two people having different opinions shaped by their lives, nothing wrong with that, it leads to good discussion and learning in which the people participating benefit with a higher level of understanding.

Okay, good. It's often hard to express your thoughts and feelings while respecting those of others, even when you might feel (rightly or wrongly) that they aren't respecting you. So I appreciate your willingness to give me the benefit of the doubt.

Quote
I guess the worst thing I saw was a TS woman getting harassed and a little roughed up by some gay people who said she was just a poser who could accept she was a gay man, but i heard worse.  Mostly i witness just getting not accepted in some LGB groups or sensing they dont want you there, not so much as before, times maybe a changing which is a good sign.

...

I think this is what's really worth talking about -- specific experiences; reality, rather than abstractions.

That's awful. I've seen or heard similar sentiments expressed at times. Janice Raymond is the standard bearer for queer transphobia. Totally unacceptable. At some point I can understand giving up. But I think the younger generation of queer people (and also, not coincidentally, feminists) are embracing a much broader view. At least that's what I see happening.

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oh i almost forgot, the report dealing with sex and health doesnt apply to TS? eh?  I would think it does, we do have sex you know, some gay some straight. ^_^  Unless their a monk or something....

Well, yeah ... my point is, what were they studying? There's a culture among gay men, and another culture among lesbians, and sometimes bi or trans people are part of those cultures, but there's no trans culture in the same sense. (Which doesn't mean anything about "the acronym": L and G are often quite separate cultures, but they come together for political purposes.) Anyway, I don't know what they were studying.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 08:32:20 PM

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Quote from: trnsboi on July 22, 2010, 02:32:00 PM
As far as prisons go, they should be segregated based on body strength and size. A person who is a bodybuilder should probably not be put in a unit with a person who weighs 90lbs, regardless of gender identity.

I think you're going a bit too far there. For one thing, strength is irrelevant compared to numbers.

If we're imagining a utopian world, let's just imagine not having prisons. I like that idea a lot better.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 02:12:41 PM
Ok, but that doesnt answer my question on why Intersex isnt up there.  Shouldnt it be LGBTI? or does the T imply I?  I dont see as much on intersex being hated as much as we are? why is that? Is it because everyone assumes its a medical condition they are born with and cannot help the way they were born? isnt TS the same?

What I've always thought about this is intersex is seen as a physical condition, L, G, B and T are thought of as a mental condition.  Society has long felt the brain can be changed so why change the body, especially when it's healthy?  With intersex, you can see the problem, with LGBT you cannot.

Most humans are lazy.  Why spend all that time learning about all those things when they don't affect you personally?  If they bother you, just tell them to change or you will discriminate against them, ostracize them from society and try to eradicate them.  That way you can sit in front of your TV drinking beer and watching cars drive around in a circle until you pass out or run out of beer.  That's a lot easier than educating yourself.

Intersex falls under the transgender part of the spectrum. You can't always tell if you are intersex.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on July 24, 2010, 06:38:53 PM
I just wanted to point out that there has been ample evidence revealed from recent studies that homosexuality is also a "medical" condition.  At least sometimes.  Studies show that when one twin is gay, the other twin will be gay a statistically significant (by far) percent of the time.  This occurs when the twins were NOT brought up together.  Further, a recent study showed that homosexuality occurs in a predictable way depending on birth order.  It is possible, given knowledge of whether a male is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. male born, to give the odds that that male child will be gay.  It seems that nature has endowed mothers with the ability to limit active procreative male children (homosexuality increases with gross number of male children) in order to foster some sort of equilibrium. 
Therefore, I find the argument that TS people are somehow "special" in the lbgt spectrum under a claim that they have a  "medical" condition, unlike the others, to be without merit.

Good going, Cindy.  GLBT all have a physical, biological, medical basis.  But many decades ago, GLB peeps and T peeps decided to pursue different political strategies.  The GLB peeps successfully lobbied to get homosexuality out of the DSM as a mental disorder, and have rebranded it as a "lifestyle choice."  They even reached the point that they were on the verge of getting ENDA out of committee.

Meanwhile, T peeps embraced the medical stigma in exchange for instant legitimacy.  They had legal recognition as the post-operative sex, and so were able to be on an even footing with heteropeeps.  They even got their own recognition as protected from employment discrimination under Title VII under the Price Waterhouse line of cases.

But then T peeps' acceptance got threatened, and even swept away in some jurisdictions, as a result of the GLB efforts to obtain same sex marriage rights, and the religious right's reaction that included refusing to recognize T peeps as the new sex following surgery.  Those same jurisdictions have also threatened to not recognize protection under Title VII for T peeps.

So that's what happens when two groups with similar interests and goals work at cross purposes, and don't coordinate their efforts.  A lot of T peeps are viewing the alliance with GLB as a cause of the loss of acceptance that T peeps have sufferred over the past 10-15 years, but it is really a response to that loss, and a needed one. 

Beachhead established. Now step aside and let us fight the damn war. Thanks.