The only war we, as ts, seem to win is in our own minds: and that seems to occur only when we fight each other. I'm thinking that whole, "a house divided amongst itself,cannot stand", thingy.  I have no doubt of your good intentions, but damn, we just really suck at it.   Like the best Judo masters, the relig right uses our reasonable requests against us to raise money for more Rolex's and materials to trash us.  We fall for the bait every time.  I have no doubt that we will get there, but it will take time.  You cannot legislate true acceptance.  We can, however, breed and foster a climate of acceptance and goodwill amongst ourselves.  The relig right hates gays just as much as us, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Quote from: Miniar on June 26, 2010, 12:34:04 PM
The T in GLBT = Transgender
Not Transsexual.
Transsexual are a "sub set" of Transgender.

I think this says it all...   I'm going to go a step further and suggest that Transsexuals aren't even part of the GLBT community. Now I have NOTHING against crossdressers at all... but the "part timers" face issues most similar to our GLB  friends.  Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

I am new to all this info. I have been married for sometime to my wife, but if I had been born a woman. I don't think that I would have been with a woman. I went from looking up to them to liking them. I have spent most of my life in confusion about my sexuality. I have felt that others thought that I was gay and set me up with girls hoping that I would change my mind. I have been with both and found that I was still unhappy with myself. When I get to the other side of this I am not sure that I will want to be with anyone. I would love to be seen as only a woman, but looks like I will not have that. I havn't thought about being grouped up with LGB. Did not know that I needed too. What ever my sexuality is many things played a roll in it even straight people pushed me to be like them. I felt wronged by straight people that made me change my clothes with "the other boys". I could not pass to the next grade because I would not change out in P.E. I was held back for 2 or 3 years over this. I did not know what I was going through. I had friends that where boys growing up some of them I thought more of, but what was I thinking.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 25, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
I think this says it all...   I'm going to go a step further and suggest that Transsexuals aren't even part of the GLBT community. Now I have NOTHING against crossdressers at all... but the "part timers" face issues most similar to our GLB  friends.  Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

Hm. So you define "transsexual" to exclude GLB trans people?

QuoteTranssexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition

This is an important point. Unlike every other group, transsexual people (and, in fact, all varieties of transgendered people) have nothing that brings them together. With oppressed ethnic or racial groups, there are family and cultural ties. With oppressed religious or political groups, there is a shared ideology. With gay, lesbian, and bisexual people, there's love. With trans people (of any variety), there's nothing that holds us together. Nothing.

I have valued many of my interactions with other trans people, such as in support groups. But I'm no more or less likely to be friends with a trans person than with anyone else I meet. On the other hand, I certainly have a connection with other lesbians that I don't have with men or straight women. That includes trans lesbians -- but their trans status is completely incidental.

But what do we do with that?

I think we can realize that T (of any scope or variety) is not a naturally cohesive category. We split among ourselves more than any other group; we split with our allies; we ditch the community (as forced as it is) as soon as we can. This is a major weakness. Our response ought to be to work on that, to recognize the very legitimate reasons we tend to want to split apart, and to try to avoid that temptation, because it doesn't help.

There's something else going no there: you're implicitly assuming passing privilege. If you can pass, then what you say is true. That's only possible if you have some combination of youth, money, support, access to medical care, and plain old luck. None of those are necessary, but you need at least one or two, and the more, the better. Until you get to the point of passing and fitting in completely, you face just about the greatest level of othering and discrimination of any group in the world. So even if it's only a few years, it's a pretty important few years.

In an important sense, it's not really true that you can ever get past being trans. Sure, you can get to the point of passing. But can you get to the point of being 100% certain nobody is going to out you? Not in this world, you can't. Even if you once could, that time is past. Perhaps you'll be lucky, and nobody malicious will ever get their grubby hands on your little secret, but I'd rather improve my odds by removing the consequences of being outed. I want stealth to be a choice. I don't want to live my life like a fugitive. That holds no allure whatsoever.

QuoteIt might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously

It'll make you practically a rock star in certain circles. It might even be true. But throwing them under the bus won't help. There not going anywhere, so get used to it, and figure out how to deal with it. Complaints that it's too hard because of *those people* also make it more difficult for transsexuals to be taken seriously.

QuoteThe difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

Wait -- are you saying being gay is a "lifestyle choice"? EPIC FAIL. Seriously, now you're just trolling.

---

Cindy, I was extending your metaphor. You said this:

QuoteI say, "let the straight looking and talking gays run point and establish the beachheads!"

Um ... yeah, they did that. Job done. Congressional medal of honor to Barney for taking out that machine gun nest.

(By the way, he's certainly not "Log Cabin," not a Republican at all. And he's scarcely a poster child: he paid a prostitute for sex, hired him as a personal aide, gave him a place to live, used his clout to help him avoid legal trouble, and finally ditched him when it was revealed that he was running a brother out of his apartment. But I don't care -- I wasn't the one advocating for clean-cut marketable queers.)

In any case, now that we've taken Omaha Beach, can we perhaps move to take the rest of Normandy? Maybe liberate Paris? Hell, let's beat the Red Army to Berlin this time.

Also, fine, "run point," great. I'm not a political tool; I'm a person. Am I just supposed to sit on my hands, keep quiet, and wait for scraps of liberation and social justice to fall from the table of the socially acceptable?

Actually, I'm probably about as close as you'll get to the clean-cut all-American picture of happiness you can find: over-educated, church-going, presentable, conservative living, connected to urban, suburban, and rural culture. And I'm doing what I can to get charming Republican grandmothers to think, "Gosh, these young transsexuals are just the kind of people I hope my grandchildren might grow up to be!" even if it's just going to brunch with them on Sunday mornings after church, or taking Communion to home-bound parishoners, or reading the Epistles, or singing in the choir, or baking cookies for coffee hour, all of which seems to be working reasonably well.

But I won't betray my fellow freaks and queers and friends of mine. I won't pretend for a second that I'm better than they are. I refuse to let anyone else use my comparative social conformity and respectability and privilege to condemn them by comparison. To anyone who might do that, all I can say is, "As you have done unto these the least of my brethren, you have done unto me."

The problem with MTF transexuals disappearing into the female community and FTM transgenders disappearing into the male community is that there are states that legally define male and female for the purposes of marriage is the physical sex you were born with and it doesn't matter how much you change your body to fit your gender.   Thus there can be legal challenges to the marriage of MTF transexuals to physically born males and marriages of FTM transgenders to physically born females.  Legally changing your birth certificate, having sexual reasignment surgery, and changing your name and drivers license, and a legal marriage license will not matter.   If your spouse parents or the state or the federal government chooses to challenge your spousal benefits, inheritance, custody of the children you may be in for a battle.   The outcome may come down to you were both born male and males can't marry so you have no recourse.

We can't disappear because society won't let us.   If gays and lesbians had the right to marry in every state than transgenders marriages couldn't be challenged.   This is also how all of our rights are joined together.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 25, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.

I don't think that's really true.  Anytime a post-op fails in the attempt to be stealth, or simply chooses not to be stealth, they are subject to that misunderstanding and prejudice.  Being stealth after surgery is not as common as most transitioners hope.

Quote
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

One thing to consider is that if we can say that about them, then others can say that about us.  I just can't bring myself to demand inclusion from others on one hand, and then exclude some other subgroup like that.  That's why I view racial minorities that discriminate against GLBT as some fairly aggregious hypocrites.  It makes them as bad as those who discriminated against them.  May I never sink that low.

QuoteIt might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice

Please keep in mind many of the cross dressers are actually closeted transwomen who have yet to come to terms with thier gender.

After reading your responses I realized that I should have been way more specific...
   First, a disclaimer... I have no problems with the GLBT community or our association with them... I also do not think that being gay, lesbian, bi or transgendered is a choice.. (I think the trolling comment was a bit harsh.)
I'm a bisexual transsexual so I feel that I'm part of both the GLBT and the T communities. I have no problem with the T community being associated with the GLB. But....
  Who I'm talking about, specifically, are fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s. There's a huge difference between a transsexual in transition and a guy who gets sexually aroused by wearing womens' clothing. I see ->-bleeped-<-s as having a choice between keeping their fetish in the bedroom where it belongs and going out in public for kicks. When people see a transsexual that may not pass very well, it's automatically assumed that they're a ->-bleeped-<-. Sexuality is inappropriately attached to the situation and folks get skeeved out. If more, correct information was  out there about the differences between transsexuals and others in the "T" community maybe opinions about the condition might start to change.

An example:  I have a close friend who works in a womens' clothing store. There are 2 or 3 guys, presenting as guys, who frequent the store and always ask for help fitting a bra or wanting to try on clothes in the fitting room. They make a big deal about it and seem to get pleasure from the attention. It creeps people out, including me! It lends to the notion that ALL transgendered people crossdress in public to make everyone part of their sexual fantasy.

"Unfortunately, I think the problem is one of marketing technique.  If you look at the materials produced by the relig right, it usually contains pictures of drag queens, and leather/bondage fetish types."

This is huge point... I recently was asked not to attend an outing by a friend of a friend because she, "didn't want her kids to see that." Whether we like it or not, these are the first images that enter people's minds when they hear, "transgendered."

   "So you're just REALLY gay," a coworker said to me when I came out. That's the type of assumption about transgendered folks that I would like to change... Association as part of a greater community is fine but incorrect assumptions as a result of that association are damaging. It's like saying, "Oh, you're a communist, you must be Cuban." It's damaging because it's incorrect
   
  I'm beginning to wrap up my transition.. I just scheduled GRS...  and I'm starting to consider stealth to some degree. I know that I'll always be trans but I'm starting to not "feel" trans anymore.. Does that make sense?

  Again, my intention is not to be inflammatory... This is just something I've been thinking about recently and I'd like to know how others feel 

We don't ever really know why people do what they do.    I just feel like a quiet unassuming female and the outlandishness of female dress in Gay Pride Parades sort of creeps me out,  but maybe that is just how they feel comfortable dealing with their femaleness, maybe  being outlandish allows them to be female in public, and that's ok.   And it also shows how our society over does the stereo typical female image, and us girls don't have to go that far to be effeminate.    Maybe we are even letting our maleness determine what we should be as women which we girls should stamp out.   That's just what I think.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 07:40:26 PM
I am not sure if this was a sarcastic jab or not, but let me give you this example.  Many people accept intersexuality, they think oh they are just born with that, but they dont think that way for TS why? Is it be cause TS is bundled with T and LGB? people say that I is part of LGBT but its not visible as much.  Definitely people dont talk about intersex as much as they talk about TG which they just assume TS is apart of.

On a side note if intersex and TS joined up in an organization the name would sound pretty good.  Either TSI, heh, TSI almost sounds like a government agency to fight world terrorism, however i would avoid going the other route ITS.  People might get the wrong idea lol

Nope, no scarcasm intended. I just wanted to point out that GLBT has been used as an umbrella term for too long, and now people assume we are all 'gay' whether that's true or not. That's why we have the same enemies of GLB's to some extent.

Chrissi

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 27, 2010, 04:04:32 PM
Nope, no scarcasm intended. I just wanted to point out that GLBT has been used as an umbrella term for too long, and now people assume we are all 'gay' whether that's true or not. That's why we have the same enemies of GLB's to some extent.

Chrissi

WE always had the same enemies.  Our enemies are the gender binay police.  It's just that until GLB peeps started lobbying for gay marriage, T peeps were mostly off the radar.  But then we got caught in the Religious Right's backlash against those efforts, and we are on their radar now, like it or not.

Intersex people being "born that way" will not save them from that same backlash.  A lesson from history is the policy of the third reich.  They thought that homosexuality had as much a biological origin as Judaism.  It didn't stop them from persecuting gays.  And while the religious reich in the US loves to say that it's not proven that it's biological for LGBT peeps, the fact remains that most of them really don't care.  They are just shouting us down when we bring it up.

People have always conflated variant sexuality with variant gender expression, probably with good reason, as sexuality is a highly gendered trait. Many gay people have variant gender expression; gender-variant people (including those whose variance is variant only with respect to the gender they were assigned at birth) are ... well, sometimes gay and sometimes not ... and give that there are people who understand and some people who don't understand that binary-gendered transsexuals are the gender they claim to be, we're all gay to somebody.

I don't see how we can blame the acronym for people's ignorance. People are ignorant to begin with. To those morons who learn about my trans status and ask me, "so does that mean you're gay?" (a rare occurrence), I just say, "Well, no it doesn't mean that I'm gay, and it doesn't mean I'm not; however, since you're asking, yes, I am. I have only ever been attracted to other women."

And let's stop freaking out about (a) the existence of deviant people of all sorts and (b) idiotic propaganda out enemies put out. It just gives makes us look weak and insecure and gives the propaganda more credibility.

When people come to the conclusion that I am transgenderd they automaically change gears into thinking I like men, which is completely wrong and rather fustrating. I believe gender identity, and sexual orientation are completely different. Even people who are "straight" may have overly feminine or masculine traits, contrary to their gender. I just stopped believe in labels, we're all human here, I think it is a good idea to be open as a group and that anyone who displays gender or sexual traits outside the norm be accepted, and protected from the descrimination lobbed on us by the rest of the world.

Hi Llewelyn,

I quite agree with you. Of course, people assume the same thing about cis* women, too. Unless a woman makes it very clear that she is a lesbian, people generally will assume she's into men. Most people just haven't thought nearly as much about gender as, well, pretty much anybody on this forum.

* (In case you don't know, cis means not trans, borrowed from Latin by way of chemistry.)

Thank you for the clairity Alyssa It's so nice to be in the deluge of people understanding. Really I think it ended up "LGBT" because anyone who has to question themselfs on such a scale, whether it's their sexual orientation or identity, has a bit more humility and understand than someone who hasn't had to.

Yes, hetero trans people who have made the transition and seamlessly integrated into society in their identified gender do not have a lot in common with the rest of LGBT people.  If one transitions at puberty, it's mostly a slam dunk you will never experience discrimination because of your birth gender.

But trans people who...
- don't pass perfectly
- have a work and/or credit history as their former self that will they need to produce
- live in a state that doesn't change birth certificates
- have people from their past that might "spill the beans"
- or have any other factors that could result in their birth gender being revealed
...could experience discrimination, persecution, ostracization and other problems due to social ignorance, bigotry and hatred. 

The LGBT activists are trying to educate the public and end discrimination.  All of the above would benefit from that.  Any transsexual person can identify as transgender - regardless of the life they live, if they can pass or not, etc - by the simple fact that their sex chromosomes are the opposite of their gender identity.  And there's nothing you can do to change that.

It's past time for the transgender community to leave the GLB movement and let the GLB do their own thing. The GLBs don't really give a ->-bleeped-<- about us anyways and are typically more bigoted and hateful of the T than even some straight republicans, and above all, "LGBT" reminds me of Sesame Street like one of these things just doesn't belong here. LG and B are connected and the T is not really part of the group. LG and B all refer to sexuality and who a person is attracted to, but transgender HAS NOTHING to do with sexuality. One of the biggest problems that has come from our association with the LGBs over time is that now whenever we come out we are automatically asked if we are gay, lesbian or bi. Extremely rare is the person who will ask a transgender person if they are straight because the association of 'T' with the LGBs has created the stigma for us that we are all either lesbian, gay or bi and that's not the case at all.
The reason why there is so much conflict between the LGB people and the T people is that many T people are heterosexual with no desire to be LG or B, but with the LG and B people they are are trying to fight the heterosexuals for rights and therefore the T group has just been caught up in that.
What united the LGBT people together in the first place was the similar fight we all had with society and government, and what divided us has been LGB greed, disrespect, hate, discrimination, and selfishness.
I have been a proud supporter of the LGBT family until now. I have been to several LGBT group meetings and the last time I went I heard the sentence that summed up the LGBs for me perfectly: "We need to get what's right for us, and the ->-bleeped-<-s can just wait anyways."
So, I am a proud heterosexual, transgender woman and the only family that is mine is the transgender family, and I wish good luck upon the LGB group, but I will no longer, ever again, say that I am a proud member of the LGBT family, because it's true that those ties were severed long ago and we've been drifting apart ever since.

And are you writing the checks?  We need office space, office equipment, political connections, meeting spaces and public figures.  Got any of those things at hand?

For me I've never saw the need to be lumped in with the Queer/Bi crowd.  in the beginning I was fairly active in their community but I always felt I was always on the outside looking in, that by exclusion they were discriminating against me.  Eventually I bid them farewell.  As a herto-sexual woman I didn't fit in, and didn't need their support; In fact they became a liability.

As others have mentioned, those who have successfully transitioned really don't need any support other than that required to get through life.  We disappear for the most part except those of us who hang around places like this.

-={LR}=-