Quote from: Izumi on July 26, 2010, 01:29:34 PM
If i dont work its because that will be MY choice and what I see is best for my family.  It by no means makes me less as a person to be a stay at home mom, its what I put value as that is important and to me its more important that my man is happy everyday he comes back from work and my adopted children are developing well with my guidance.  To have a child that I raised call me mom for the rest of my life is more rewarding then a job that pays 6 figures ever will be because in the end i want my life to mean something more then the bottom of line of some company's business portfolio. 

I will be retiring from my job early in 5 years, after which my husband will support the family, however due to my current and forecasted financial position, i would have made adequate investments to replace my salary entirely, so while i maybe a house wife, i am by no means stupid.  I run the fiances, which even now includes my fiance's money.

Also i dont feel like a woman because of him, i feel more a woman when i am with him, because he brings out emotions in me that you only feel when your with someone you love and know he loves you back.

Very well put Izumi, if my husband wants me to be a full time housewife I will consider it but the choice will be mine, at least he's honest, a full time housewife is a busy job cooking, cleaning, dusting and ironing etc. then working 3days as well, so I maybe glad to give up work lol I'II do a trial period, then my day off is for me, pampering shopping etc.
But to get back on thread, the only missing piece of womanhood for me is getting pregnant and having my own children, sadly thats impossible, Im a woman in everyway, my boyfriend tells me Im a beautiful woman, but I can never have his children because Im a trans woman, Id loved to have periods and give birth but thats only a dream, but Im still a woman with a dream for a child to call me Mom, still being excepted, is what it means to be a woman to me, yes Im a girl, Im a woman, Im female and its a beautiful feminine womanly feeling, its awsome!

Quote from: pretty pauline on July 26, 2010, 05:56:37 PM
Very well put Izumi, if my husband wants me to be a full time housewife I will consider it but the choice will be mine, at least he's honest, a full time housewife is a busy job cooking, cleaning, dusting and ironing etc. then working 3days as well, so I maybe glad to give up work lol I'II do a trial period, then my day off is for me, pampering shopping etc.
But to get back on thread, the only missing piece of womanhood for me is getting pregnant and having my own children, sadly thats impossible, Im a woman in everyway, my boyfriend tells me Im a beautiful woman, but I can never have his children because Im a trans woman, Id loved to have periods and give birth but thats only a dream, but Im still a woman with a dream for a child to call me Mom, still being excepted, is what it means to be a woman to me, yes Im a girl, Im a woman, Im female and its a beautiful feminine womanly feeling, its awsome!

You and me are the same in that respect that i too wish i could have my own child, but i cant, although i have taken care of children in my family and from that experience i think i would make an ok mom.  I am not waiting to marriage to see how much i like being a housewife though.  I started it early, although i still work, i took up the duties as well.  Cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. etc.. When my fiance gets home he can relax and enjoy himself, he knows i got things.  If i hate doing it with the combination of my job now, i will hate it later without my job, so far for 5 weeks living together, i still enjoy it every time he says what i made him for dinner tasted amazing.  He also does things for me, without me even asking him, which i love.  If he sees i am tired he will rub my back or tickle it.  He takes care of my feet and generally has been neater since he knows i do the cleaning, he takes into consideration that its more work for me, but i am happy to do it.  If i can handle both work and this, just doing house work later will be easy. 

By the way it is a lot of work, laundry for 2 takes a few hours to do if you do it right, cooking at least 2 if you make meals for the day and the day after (he has to have lunch and breakfast you know, and so do you).  Cleaning up after a man... heh, you know how that is....  Throw a child into the mix and you got a whole day of work no problem that doesnt end at regular hours.

I am a housewife. It is and often times hard job. I tend my pets, cook the meals, clean the house do laundry and a ->-bleeped-<- ton of things around here all the time. I am rarely not doing something. To hear anyone denigrate or doubt a housewifes value really pisses me off.
I get my spouse up and ready for work, prepare lunches and I am hir first line counsiler and confiant. I meet hir at the door when ze comes home and most the time have a hot meal ready when ze gets home. Housewives are the mortar in many families and when she is not at optimum the entire household suffers. The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.
And to think so many women do all I do while also bareing and raising children!

Respect the housewife!

I feel that we are what we are and not what we do.   I have gotten over trying to be what I do.  I taught elementary school and being of unsound mind tried to be a male elementary and middle school teacher in little German-Russian and Scandinavian praire communities,  on two different Native Ameican Communities, and in an inner city Black community in northern Florida.    In every community there a multitude of ways to be feminine.   I am still helping to raise children, have grown children, and  grandchildren and am currently retired.   Female is what I am, my role in my current family debends upon my GG spouse.    In the past I changed diapers and washed clothes and mopped floors, and did many culturally stereo typical female chores even when masquerading as a male.   For me, in my sixties my goal is to be a happy go lucky female and make as many changes as life permits me.   Yes shaving my beard constantly is getting very irritating and I wish that my fake boobs weren't removable and they even feel real, like one who looses an arm and still feels its there, and bouncing between being being girlish at home and butch when out and about puts me on a rolly coaster, but thats my life.   Being outgoing to survive, but really shy and self conscious and not wanting to draw attension to myself doesn't help either.   I become more myself everyday.   And if some day I take hormones, it will not matter how my feeling change and my attraction changes from women to men,  I will remain loyal to my spouse, because thats how I am.   I guess thats how Scorpios are, at least this one is.  I am a female lesbian wolf and I mate for life as long as my mate will have me.

While I have fathered children, I know I will always miss being pregnate and carrying a little new life within me and giving birth.    But my spouce will think I am nuts.

The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.

To who exactly?  To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure.  To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them?  Nada.

Quote from: MissAshley on July 26, 2010, 12:47:06 PM
Where did she say she expected anything for anything? She merely described the life in which she lives, one in which both she and her boyfriend are happy.

You want to "fight the good fight," that's fine, but don't imagine battles where there are none.

All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met. I was wondering why putting oneself in such a submissive and vulnerable role is representative of womanhood because her summary of womanhood pretty much describes my definition of what womanhood is not. Obviously it is different for everybody and I am most interested in understanding the beliefs that are most different from my own because I am not the type of person who picks fights. I enjoy having discussions with others and it is a feminine reaction to take another's curiosity as a personal attack when in reality it's not. It is also a feminine reaction on my part to find common ground and empathize in areas of disagreement rather than just have it be an "I'm right, you're wrong" type.

Being a wife and housework generally go together no matter what, it comes with the role. I never claimed it was easy and it definitely is underappreciated. I am trying to make the point that the only thing more difficult than being a fulltime housewife/mom is having a fulltime career and having to be the fulltime housewife/mom. This is reality for a lot of women, particularly the women in my life that I look up to most. I guess I just cannot even fathom what it would be like marrying a man knowing that I am not 100% financially self-sufficient  first. It would contradict the strength and independence that I value and wish to promote in my version of womanhood.

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.

To who exactly?  To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure.  To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them?  Nada.

You are providing a stable base for your family of course.  Your not a cook or maid, your a wife, its a different duty all together, isn't it each other's duty in marriage to look after each other.  You would put your work in front of your spouse?  Who profits, lots of people, your friends and family for being able to see you more, your kids, your spouse, just because someone i never met cant buy a mercedes because of the big deal i helped to put together doesnt make me any less important.  I will count my success based on the health of my family rather then some nameless corporation.  When your children grow up knowing mom and dad care about them they have a higher rate of success at life, and with the right guidance can go on to be greater then you were or ever will be, and when someone wins an award typically the first people they thank is their parents. 

A housewife provides stability in the family, she makes all the decisions regarding the home and how it operates as typically financial matters and investments, at least thats what I do, my fiance works, but he only gets a small allowance a week for his own personal stuff, but he doesnt care because I give him everything he needs and more, and he does the same for me.

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Post Merge: July 26, 2010, 10:03:45 PM

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Quote from: uni on July 26, 2010, 10:39:29 PM
All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met. I was wondering why putting oneself in such a submissive and vulnerable role is representative of womanhood because her summary of womanhood pretty much describes my definition of what womanhood is not. Obviously it is different for everybody and I am most interested in understanding the beliefs that are most different from my own because I am not the type of person who picks fights. I enjoy having discussions with others and it is a feminine reaction to take another's curiosity as a personal attack when in reality it's not. It is also a feminine reaction on my part to find common ground and empathize in areas of disagreement rather than just have it be an "I'm right, you're wrong" type.

Being a wife and housework generally go together no matter what, it comes with the role. I never claimed it was easy and it definitely is underappreciated. I am trying to make the point that the only thing more difficult than being a fulltime housewife/mom is having a fulltime career and having to be the fulltime housewife/mom. This is reality for a lot of women, particularly the women in my life that I look up to most. I guess I just cannot even fathom what it would be like marrying a man knowing that I am not 100% financially self-sufficient  first. It would contradict the strength and independence that I value and wish to promote in my version of womanhood.

Your not putting yourself in a submissive role, all the husbands that have to sleep on couches instead of in the bedroom can attest to that.  You rule the home, including everyone it, its actually a position of power, with that power you have responsibilities, your husband does his job, you do yours, but you dont do it because your subservient to him, you do it because you CARE about him, CARE that he works longer hours and harder then you will even if you worked to 2 jobs (at least in my case he does).  After he gets home i want it to be be a place of peace where he can relax and relieve all the pent up stress and tension of work, i do this not because of obligation to him in anyway, its because i love him and i put his needs in front of my own, he does the same for me, he pulled a muscle yesterday and could barely walk, he knows we need money so he limped off to work today no matter how much i told him to stay home.  My comfort and the family well being (mainly mine since we dont have kids), means more to him then his own pain.  You see its not about who is dominant and who isnt, you have been caught in the machine so long you look at relationships as what you can get out of them, you defined it as:

"All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met." 

Thats a lie, i know plenty of families very happy even though little or no expectations are met, simply because they care about each other.  If you look at a relationship as what you can get out of it, that selfish an doomed to failure, simply because once you get what you want, and cant get anything else you desire out of the relationship, whats the point in staying? move on and find someone else you can get stuff from...

A true mutual relationship isnt about what you can get, its what you can give, if your spouse is a normal man, all you have to do is show him love and appreciation everyday and he would take a bullet for you.  He will also show his love for you back in his own ways.  If you give and expect stuff in return your missing the point, however, if you give and give and give and see nothing, he might not be the man for you.  Thankfully my guy gives back in ways i couldnt even imagine when i met him.

To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them?

That, could be asked to a majority of people. From a homeless disabled person looking for a meal and place to sleep to the most powerful people in the world. 'Hey CEO of XYZ Company! What are you doing for the rest of society?'
And there are those who are content to not doing anything for society. Are they obligated to? And who judges when a person has done enough?
Which society are you obligated to? Some parts definetly don't think they are in any way obligated to who they define as different.
The uppity society? The music society? The list goes on and on. Am I obligated to contribute to your society? Is my society even a part of the 'big' society? Is yours or theirs? Who verifies  this?
House wives do what they do for any number of reasons. Many times I'm sure that they have done their contributions, and who is to say how valid is anyones contributions are. How much would be acceptable?

Quote from: Izumi on July 26, 2010, 10:51:39 PM
Your not putting yourself in a submissive role, all the husbands that have to sleep on couches instead of in the bedroom can attest to that.  You rule the home, including everyone it, its actually a position of power, with that power you have responsibilities, your husband does his job, you do yours, but you dont do it because your subservient to him, you do it because you CARE about him, CARE that he works longer hours and harder then you will even if you worked to 2 jobs (at least in my case he does).

It is extremely vulnerable not to have a plan B with the divorce rate being so high. A lot of women are one man away from welfare. In the event of divorce, who is the one who gets the house and who is the one who has to move in with their family or friends? The stay at home mom/housewife has nothing to fall back on unless she gets some money from the court. This puts many men in an awful position if they want a divorce even if it's mutual. He has to be the jackass that either kicks her out with nowhere else to go, or lets her live there just so he wont look bad.

Good luck trying to pay the bills with CARE when you have nothing but yourself to rely on. See how far that power will take you in the absence of a home. See how many responses your resume gets if the only job experience is "homemaker" and you need to make a living wage to support your children.

You are submissive because in worst case scenario, as unfair as it may be, the housewife has much more to lose than the husband. 

QuoteAfter he gets home i want it to be be a place of peace where he can relax and relieve all the pent up stress and tension of work, i do this not because of obligation to him in anyway, its because i love him and i put his needs in front of my own, he does the same for me, he pulled a muscle yesterday and could barely walk, he knows we need money so he limped off to work today no matter how much i told him to stay home.  My comfort and the family well being (mainly mine since we dont have kids), means more to him then his own pain.  You see its not about who is dominant and who isnt, you have been caught in the machine so long you look at relationships as what you can get out of them, you defined it as:

"All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met." 

Thats a lie, i know plenty of families very happy even though little or no expectations are met, simply because they care about each other.  If you look at a relationship as what you can get out of it, that selfish an doomed to failure, simply because once you get what you want, and cant get anything else you desire out of the relationship, whats the point in staying? move on and find someone else you can get stuff from...

A true mutual relationship isnt about what you can get, its what you can give, if your spouse is a normal man, all you have to do is show him love and appreciation everyday and he would take a bullet for you.  He will also show his love for you back in his own ways.  If you give and expect stuff in return your missing the point, however, if you give and give and give and see nothing, he might not be the man for you.  Thankfully my guy gives back in ways i couldnt even imagine when i met him.

I hate the idea of a head of the household or anyone being the dominant one. Having high expectations for the people you love and care about has nothing to do with greed or getting what you want. It is the reason I will not settle for just anybody. I want a man with high enough standards to not feel emasculated to be with a woman who has an opinion and who wants more in life than to just make babies. I want someone who is willing to give it all, because they know that they will not be taken advantage of.  You would not be with this man you are with if he treated you badly. You chose to stay with him because you feel the amount of love you give is being returned. That's not selfishness, that is having self-respect. That is having standards on how you expect to be treated that reflect expectations you have on yourself.

Why is it that the ones who are closest to us are the ones who are capable of hurting us the most? My expectations are certainly higher for a family member or friend than a random stranger.

You would put your work in front of your spouse?

Well, not just 'ya', but 'hell yeah!'  I've done it several times in the past (only one ex-spouse, I learned that lesson, but several runners-up and also-rans).  I'd make exactly the same choice today as I did then if it ever came up.  "It's me or the job," really?  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Why do you think that divorce is far more common in high-powered professions (politics, law, doctors, CEOs) then in more menial work?  Because that choice is no choice at all.  There is a world full of potential lovers, but only one political life.  In entertainment, as everyone knows, marriage is pretty much a joke.  But that's not just the stars.  It's the producers, directors, studio exes, writers too.  And it's industry wide top to bottom.  So its not just the star of the movie, or the big rock star - it's also their managers, the electricians on the set, the carps, the roadies, the techies, the lighting people - it's frickin' everyone.  My boss has been married three times now, we don't think he'll ever learn.  That work is far more interesting than any other single person could ever be.

And the divorce rate in the entertainment industry is no bigger than the one in academia.  The classes, the research, your colleagues are all far more interesting than any other single person is, it's more interesting than any other single person ever could be.  Hell, in some cases, unlike entertainment, it might even actually be important.

I'm all in favor of people doing what ever in the hell they want to do, so long as they don't ask me to subsidize it.  But I'm not going to give up the right to make distinctions about people's choices either.  If you want to lay on a beach in some third-world county and be a surf bum, fine - but don't try to equate it as somehow equal in social value to being a nurse or a fireman.  It's groovy that you found what makes you happy, and swell on you for that - but that sure don't mean I have to value it.  To value it possibly being ABOVE (as the op stated) other things verges on being delusional.  (And, I suspect that if I really dug, I'd find out this 'choice' is really being paid for by someone else, namely you and me.)

I don't understand why people make judgements about how people should feel or act. In my opinion if a woman wants to be a homemaker and take care of her man that is just fine. I like being a homemaker, shopping and having lunch with the girls. I hated the competitive corporate world and now that I am living as a woman I am happy to be relieved of the stress of being a tough guy at the office. I was never a tough guy; I was always a gentle woman.

Pam

I place my family before any other considerations. I would give my life for them. If you serve yourself first then so be it. But do not denigrate me because I serve my family first.

As I and others have said, what it means to be a woman is simply to be one. It is simple yet profound, and there are as many answers as there are women. I am fully looking forward to spending the rest of my life answering that question for myself.

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
To who exactly?  To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure.  To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them?  Nada.

As a graphic designer what benefit really do I bestow on society?  In the best case, I draw a pretty picture that, if I did my job well, and somebody else does their job well, then somebody somewhere might make some extra money, or get something even more abstract out of it.

Most people don't serve society with their jobs and that is not why most people work.  Usually people do their job because a) they feel they have to and/or b) they get some personal fulfillment out of doing it.

Those who are lucky enough to have an occupation that does make a real difference are the major exception.  We can't all be teachers and scientists.  I think for the women (and men) that choose to be great homemakers can justifiably get every bit the feeling of personal fulfillment and satisfaction out of their work that the rest of the world gets from their rat-race jobs.

And if their duties include raising some great kids, then they may make a positive impact on the world after all.

Quote from: uni on July 26, 2010, 11:51:56 PM
It is extremely vulnerable not to have a plan B with the divorce rate being so high. A lot of women are one man away from welfare. In the event of divorce, who is the one who gets the house and who is the one who has to move in with their family or friends? The stay at home mom/housewife has nothing to fall back on unless she gets some money from the court. This puts many men in an awful position if they want a divorce even if it's mutual. He has to be the jackass that either kicks her out with nowhere else to go, or lets her live there just so he wont look bad.

Good luck trying to pay the bills with CARE when you have nothing but yourself to rely on. See how far that power will take you in the absence of a home. See how many responses your resume gets if the only job experience is "homemaker" and you need to make a living wage to support your children.

You are submissive because in worst case scenario, as unfair as it may be, the housewife has much more to lose than the husband. 

I hate the idea of a head of the household or anyone being the dominant one. Having high expectations for the people you love and care about has nothing to do with greed or getting what you want. It is the reason I will not settle for just anybody. I want a man with high enough standards to not feel emasculated to be with a woman who has an opinion and who wants more in life than to just make babies. I want someone who is willing to give it all, because they know that they will not be taken advantage of.  You would not be with this man you are with if he treated you badly. You chose to stay with him because you feel the amount of love you give is being returned. That's not selfishness, that is having self-respect. That is having standards on how you expect to be treated that reflect expectations you have on yourself.

Why is it that the ones who are closest to us are the ones who are capable of hurting us the most? My expectations are certainly higher for a family member or friend than a random stranger.

You assume that housewives are uneducated just because they choose to stay home and therefore cant take care of themselves, well they can, easily in most cases, some used to even be CEO's of corporations, dont tell me they will be hurting if the spouse leaves, you should wait until you have established yourself before getting married anyway.

If your plan expects divorce then you shouldnt get married in the first place.  Marriage is supposed to be between two people that pledge each to the other, its a lifetime thing.  Dating is how you determine if you want to marry someone or not.  After about 1.5 years of dating you know if they are the one or not, hell i can tell if someone is marriage material or not in a few dates.  The reason divorces happen is the following:

1) people marry too young, before they establish themselves as individuals, and understand what marriage really is.
2) people are selfish, only caring about their needs
3) people ignore red flags during dating thinking they can change behavior after marriage (women especially)
4) people marry for the wrong reasons (financial for example)

There is probably more, but slipped my mind.  If you wait till after college to get married you will have your education and even if your a housewife, you will make it in the world, its very rare that the assets are not spread 50/50 with custody and child support payments going to the wife.  If you do cheat on your husband, then you deserve to lose all that, call it penance for your breaking a sacred bond.

The problem is also your expectation of men.  The typical man wants to feel like he can protect his family from harm, physical or financial, you take that away from him by being dominant or whatever, you just made him not a man in his own eyes.  Men have to be men, men do, its what they do. 

I can without a doubt take care of myself, i make more then him too.  Thats not the point though, i let him be a man, because thats what makes him happy and i care about his needs.  If a man beats you, then you shouldnt marry him in the first place and i made that very clear to him, if he ever hurt me physically we are done, over, finished, no second chance.  I dated him to find out what kind of person he is, most people ignore the warning signs (red flags) because they want the dream, they think they can change an abusive man, think that no one but me understands him, i can fix him... yeah right. 

If you marry an abusive man, your just stupid, and you put YOURSELF in that position.

You also think head of household means someone is dominant and someone is submissive.  I can tell my fiance to go to hell anytime i want, and he would leave me alone, He asks me for things, i do it because i love him, not because hes dominant, just as easily i could refuse and he would accept it.  The same goes for me.  See, dominance comes into play only if your selfish, if your not, your simply giving, and they will give to.  Its a relationship of love, not power. 

I am not trying to be mean or sound rude or anything but your getting love and power confused. If you love someone you dont treat them like an equal, you treat them better then you treat yourself, you raise them above you.  If they love you, they would do the same, then you both end up on top in the other persons eyes. 

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Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 12:16:44 PM

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Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 11:58:34 PM
You would put your work in front of your spouse?

Well, not just 'ya', but 'hell yeah!'  I've done it several times in the past (only one ex-spouse, I learned that lesson, but several runners-up and also-rans).  I'd make exactly the same choice today as I did then if it ever came up.  "It's me or the job," really?  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Why do you think that divorce is far more common in high-powered professions (politics, law, doctors, CEOs) then in more menial work?  Because that choice is no choice at all.  There is a world full of potential lovers, but only one political life.  In entertainment, as everyone knows, marriage is pretty much a joke.  But that's not just the stars.  It's the producers, directors, studio exes, writers too.  And it's industry wide top to bottom.  So its not just the star of the movie, or the big rock star - it's also their managers, the electricians on the set, the carps, the roadies, the techies, the lighting people - it's frickin' everyone.  My boss has been married three times now, we don't think he'll ever learn.  That work is far more interesting than any other single person could ever be.

And the divorce rate in the entertainment industry is no bigger than the one in academia.  The classes, the research, your colleagues are all far more interesting than any other single person is, it's more interesting than any other single person ever could be.  Hell, in some cases, unlike entertainment, it might even actually be important.

I'm all in favor of people doing what ever in the hell they want to do, so long as they don't ask me to subsidize it.  But I'm not going to give up the right to make distinctions about people's choices either.  If you want to lay on a beach in some third-world county and be a surf bum, fine - but don't try to equate it as somehow equal in social value to being a nurse or a fireman.  It's groovy that you found what makes you happy, and swell on you for that - but that sure don't mean I have to value it.  To value it possibly being ABOVE (as the op stated) other things verges on being delusional.  (And, I suspect that if I really dug, I'd find out this 'choice' is really being paid for by someone else, namely you and me.)

I feel sorry for you.  I really do.  You can have your job that pays tons of money.  Who will you pay to care about you when you die?  Even if your famous, and are remembered through history, your just another page in the history book eventually to be lost in time.  When your here you made money and partied a lot, had a lot of fun, had a lot of fast affairs and hot dates, but who is going to care about you, instead of your money?  You might turn out to be on of those rich millionaires that got hot guys/gals 1/2 there age, but they will only fake caring for you until you keel over and they get your estate.  Heh, i would rather die with no money and my family who loves me around me, then that kind of death. 

Also you assume that I cannot make money while being a housewife.  Thats an interesting thought since instead of working for my money, i will let my money work for me, in 5 years of hard work i will lay the foundations for a stead stream of income that will replace my current salary.  I will continue to manage the finances throughout my life, which is when we both decided i would quit my job and raise a family, but my income will still be there.  All financial decisions are mine, my fiance just asks if he can get this or that, i tell him no, he knows its no, because i always have a reason.  Decisions themselves are also mutual, if he says no and i say yes, its no.  We both have to say yes for it to go ahead.

Sometimes we need more of a live and let live attitude.  I saw that whatever makes you and your family happy, then go for it, whether it is full time housewife or career woman.  Of course, many career women are still full time housewives unless they hire out someone, but you get my point.

I have health problems that keep me from having a job, but that makes me feel what I do for the family is even more important.  Though I don't have a spouse, I do help my brother a lot because he works so many hours and is doing so for our future.  I cook, do laundry, clean the house, and try to make him comfortable when he comes home, such as getting him something cold to drink and doing whatever he would like to do.  He always pays when we go out, and he is so caring (he will make someone a great wife someday). 

I told him that when the time comes I will try to help him on the ranch, and at least milk some cows and bring him his lunch (via horseback - if I don't fall off), but he told me that we wants me to stay in the house and help his mother take care of things, so I will probably do a little of both, at least until he gets a wife.

Being the 1950's housewife is ok if its what you want to do or feel you need to do.   But for me I can't have to do it because that's is what a woman does.    One of the ways I was hardest on my self was with all of the things a man of the Dakota prairies had to do and had to do perfectly and by himself to be a man.    As a woman I can choose to do or not do these things and its ok if I am not perfect and make mistakes.   Needing to do somethings because they need to be done is one thing, but doing them because they have to be because that's what the stereo typical role of the place we grow up in says we have to is another.    As a woman I might actually enjoy some of the things I had to do as a man.    I might even feel good about myself for doing them.    But as a man I was never good enough,  and never let myself feel good about anything I did because I never measured up to my expectations, and of course I didn't because I wasn't a man, I was and am a woman.

Quote from: michelle on July 27, 2010, 01:10:45 PM
Being the 1950's housewife is ok if its what you want to do or feel you need to do.   But for me I can't have to do it because that's is what a woman does.    One of the ways I was hardest on my self was with all of the things a man of the Dakota prairies had to do and had to do perfectly and by himself to be a man.    As a woman I can choose to do or not do these things and its ok if I am not perfect and make mistakes.   Needing to do somethings because they need to be done is one thing, but doing them because they have to be because that's what the stereo typical role of the place we grow up in says we have to is another.    As a woman I might actually enjoy some of the things I had to do as a man.    I might even feel good about myself for doing them.    But as a man I was never good enough,  and never let myself feel good about anything I did because I never measured up to my expectations, and of course I didn't because I wasn't a man, I was and am a woman.

Yeah i understand what you mean, as a man i never felt quite right, like i was constantly doing something wrong and didnt know what.  In groups of men i could not function, it was strange, for some reason i was always the odd one out even though i was pretty fit and could play the same sports well.  I just felt strange like i didnt belong, the exact opposite in groups of women, i loved home economics class because it was mostly girls and we would just talk and sew, or talk and cook, i had a fear of asking a girl out, but talking to them in a casual environment felt great, it was wonderful and i always looked forward to being part of mostly women groups.  In groups of men it felt like everyone was watching me waiting for me to make a mistake or something so they could attack, it was a strange feeling of uneasiness.

The best way i could describe it is living in the matrix.  Like everything in front of you, you have to accept but you know in the back of your mind its not real.

Quote from: Izumi on July 27, 2010, 01:26:02 PM
In groups of men it felt like everyone was watching me waiting for me to make a mistake or something so they could attack, it was a strange feeling of uneasiness.

It's strange, I felt the exact same way when surrounded by women! Especially in home ec class. 

I guess I, for me, had a break through in all of this.  I was focused on how the world saw me as a women, or how others saw me as a woman.   But for me, that is not really the focus.   This isn't about how others see me.   Its about how I see me as a woman.   Its about how I feel about me as a woman.  Its about what I need to do for my self as a woman.  I need to feel comfortable about my looks and feelings and not fear what the world cares.    I grew up in an emotionally charged alcoholic family where in order to survive I had to focus on the emotions aimed at me.   If I wanted peace I had to emotionally feel out the world around me, then judge what would happen if   I did this or I did that.    Emotionally I had no self image of myself,  life was all about everyone else.   It never got physical with me as a youth except with my brother and we never hurt each other because I never pushed it.  Emotionally there was no one out there for me except myself.   Now at 63 I find this shell beginning to crack away and I am watching such shows as the Cherry Bomb TV girls and letting myself feel about the issues and myself.   When I look in the mirror I like the girl looking back.