Quote from: spacial on June 23, 2010, 03:22:24 PM
I do hope things can work out for people in the US.

The European way is very different but there is nothing to be gained by comparisons. Transfer isn't possible.

Exactly.  Europe is very much different than the United States.  And I can understand about having on energy.

Shall we agree to disagree. 

We do hope that things work out for us too. 

I would like to know how the Roman Catholic Church, which sees itself as the only true Church, excuses joining with an organisation that is clearly heretical?  Apart from being the RCC that is!

It's just typical religion/politics... "We'll get along for the moment because we have a common enemy"

Quote from: Vicky on June 23, 2010, 10:15:08 AM
With a bit of a front row seat on the California Proposition 8 challenge, (I live only about 8 miles from the Courthouse the Federal Court suit is taking place in) I am aware of a Friend Of The Court Brief that takes the position that marriage should not be used in ANY State or Federal law because of its ussurpation by various religions as a religious practice.  It also suggests that clergy which are currently given limited status to administer the civil contractual oath be relieved of the right to do so.  Net result, as far as the government goes, you have a Civil Contractual Union no matter if you are hetero-sexual or same sex unionist.  If you want to go to church and have a party afterward, call it what you will, marriage or holy fungus, or a bad hair day. I'm not betting that this type of good sense will prevail, but it has been presented. 

Its a bit like cutting the baby in two, and we know how that one ended-- or did it?

Most all of us know that the Roman Catholic Church was involved in almost every government throughout Europe prior to the development of the US as we know it today.  When a new ruler, king, queen, monarch, dictator, whatever, was installed, the RCC was there presiding over and sanctioning the event.  The RCC was there for almost every major decision and never hesitated to use their growing power to influence government to do things their way, and increase their power. 

The people who drew up the US Constitution wanted to end that.  But the problem was the people colonizing the US were mostly christians and I'd imagine they believed the Constitution said they have the right to practice christianity without interference and the RCC was more than happy to help. So, rather than taking the literal meaning, freedom for all to practice whatever religion they wanted without persecution, the citizens created a new, unwritten, rule and turned freedom for all into freedom for christianity.

In a very real way, I think that opened the door for the US to become a christian nation, regardless of what the Constitution said.  People, not the Constitution or even written law, decide what is right and wrong.  And here, it's majority rules, minorities get quashed, regardless of what the Principles of Democracy say.

And anyone who opens their eyes enough sees that the people with the money dramatically influence lawmakers to "see things" their way.  The Mormons exert enormous pressure on their members to donate huge amounts of cash to fill up their coffers.  And their leadership uses that to change laws, create new ones and sway voters so that this country is more to their liking.  And no politician, no government authority, will stand up to them.  They have too much financial clout. So much for separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state only exists when the church has no money.

The Mormon church owns and runs many corporations and businesses. When I worked in the financial sector, the state of Utah was a small but very active member as far as trading was concerned.

This isn't about God or morality; this is about power and influence. In Salt Lake City there are homeless LGBT people because they were kicked out of their homes. Why? Because of who they are.

What galls me is when the Mormon leaders say that we're the greatest threat to society and marriage. Divorce is the great threat to marriage. I've gotten to the point that if anyone says that my being transgender is a threat to marriage and society, I will confront them.

Gennee  

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Post Merge: June 24, 2010, 12:38:33 PM

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Quote from: Julie Marie on June 24, 2010, 05:53:45 AM
Most all of us know that the Roman Catholic Church was involved in almost every government throughout Europe prior to the development of the US as we know it today.  When a new ruler, king, queen, monarch, dictator, whatever, was installed, the RCC was there presiding over and sanctioning the event.  The RCC was there for almost every major decision and never hesitated to use their growing power to influence government to do things their way, and increase their power. 

The people who drew up the US Constitution wanted to end that.  But the problem was the people colonizing the US were mostly christians and I'd imagine they believed the Constitution said they have the right to practice christianity without interference and the RCC was more than happy to help. So, rather than taking the literal meaning, freedom for all to practice whatever religion they wanted without persecution, the citizens created a new, unwritten, rule and turned freedom for all into freedom for christianity.

In a very real way, I think that opened the door for the US to become a christian nation, regardless of what the Constitution said.  People, not the Constitution or even written law, decide what is right and wrong.  And here, it's majority rules, minorities get quashed, regardless of what the Principles of Democracy say.

And anyone who opens their eyes enough sees that the people with the money dramatically influence lawmakers to "see things" their way.  The Mormons exert enormous pressure on their members to donate huge amounts of cash to fill up their coffers.  And their leadership uses that to change laws, create new ones and sway voters so that this country is more to their liking.  And no politician, no government authority, will stand up to them.  They have too much financial clout. So much for separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state only exists when the church has no money.

Julie, the second paragraph brings up quite a few points. Many people have the idea that America is a Christian nation. Looking at it now, this surely cannot be said. The truth is America was founded on Christian principles. Though I am a Christian, I believe that people have the right to choose how they worship. I will defend their right to do so.

One of the tactics used by RCC was fear. If you didn't follow what they said, you were a heretic and doomed to hell. The leaders were your Pharisees. People brought the same fears to America, hence the many witch trials in which innocent people were murdered. Transgender people were among many who killed.

I've had a chance to educate some people about this.

Gennee

I apologise once again for appearing to attack America, again, but America has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

It's deeds that count.

(When I'm feeling a bit better I'll probably post a better rant).

Hi Spacial!

I don't see your comments as an attack. It's your perspective vs. others. Nothing wrong with that! I do agree (to a point) with your last comment:

QuoteAmerica has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

Running a country on Christian principles is a sure fire way to a return to the "good 'ol days" of inquisitional witch hunts! I have no problem with politicians and/or political pundits who hold and conduct their own lives within their Christian values. I do have issue when they cross the line and arbitrarily make statements to suggest that this is a "Christian nation", and that these values should hold weight in governing my life when the indisputable evidence suggests otherwise.

The light needs to be shown upon these people for what they really could represent. I can't go as for as you did in an earlier post, however, I will say that they do represent a significant threat to our country if their views are established as a fact in conduct of governance.


Dawn   

QuoteAmerica has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

There is a major difference between running a country based on Christian Principles and allowing a religious group to run a country.  And I fear that America is allowing a religious group to take control of the country.

Prop 8 is/was an attempt to control America by the Mormons.  And by allowing these kinds of groups to lobby Congress is allowing them to dictate policy.  Why do you think America is looked at as the Great Satan by the Islamic world.  Can anyone say "The Great Crusades"?

I blame the religious policies of the last regime for 9/11 as much as I do the terrorists.  And don't think that I don't support out solders, because I have friends over there.

I support the troops, not the crooks who sent them there.

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Post Merge: June 24, 2010, 06:44:32 PM

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Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 23, 2010, 02:50:01 PM
spacial,

There is a transgendered community, through out the US.  Do we all live in a ghetto?  No, we live where we can, not necessarily where we want to.  Thus ENDA.  Do we get to work where we want? No, some are lucky to even have a job.  Thus ENDA.

All we ask for is to not be afraid of discrimination, in work, housing, healthcare.  Special clubs, or bathrooms.  No.  Then the clock turns back to the days when blacks had to drink from certain fountains, eat in certain restaurants, use certain bathrooms.

Do I think that most transgendered people will be comfortable living in a society where laws and regulations govern and protect their special interests?  You are correct.  Just as woman have laws and regulations.  Just as Blacks have laws and regulations.  Just as any discriminated people has laws and regulations.

Do I want to wear a big yellow Star on my clothing?  No.  The Nazis did that in WWII.  And then rounded up all those wearing it into camps, for the Ultimate Solution.

Yes we just want in integrate into society, and many do.  But read this forum.  How many have problems changing their b/c, drivers license, SSA records?  The very laws and regulations we seek is just to guarantee that these things can be done.

I just want the same as anyone else.  To live my life as I see fit, without discrimination or fear of being attacked.  To marry who I want.  Most want the same thing.

What is wrong with asking for the same rights as anyone else.  Nothing special.  Look to your own country.  What do you have that is special.  Does your government pay for your HRT, SRS maybe?  Those are very special privileges for Transgendered people only.  Here we have to pay for it out of pocket.

I have a feeling that this approach, for transgendered people, will present more difficulities than it solves.

Women, black people, the disabled, all are specifically identifiable. The level of integration each of these seeks is based upon being who they are. Women, being women but having the same rights as men. Black people being black people but not haing their rights decided on the basis of their skin colour. (And bloody right too!! ). The same for disabled people.

Gay people also are generally happy to be seen as gay. Their hurdle was to overcome the notion that being gay means being promiscuis.

But Transgenderd people seek to fully integrate into society in their chosen gender. They don't seek identification, mosty. They don't seek any special arrangements.

The first hurdle transgendered people need to deal with is identification. To have public records altered to reflect their preferred gender.

Here in the UK it is not possible to have birth certificates altered, usually, even for a name change. But other records can. Back in the 80s, when banks were issuing photos on credit cards, they offered transgendered customers two cards, each with a photo of their preferred gender.

The problems come when you continue living in the same community as you were before your gender change.

Having specific laws to protect you in these situations might not work. In another thread there is the story of a transgendered woman working in air-traffic control, accused of exposing her breasts. She is currently suspended. (According to the story).

What this demosntrates is that, there are more ways to skin a cat.

Here in the UK there are laws protecting employees from harrissment and unfair dismissal. When I worked in the NHS, I was for a time, as shop steward for my union. People would be charged with extraordinary offenses. Everyone knew these were a crock, and they were caused by some new manager taking a dislike to some employee. I had a woman, with 34 year experience, mostly in junior management charged with failing to support an 18 year old. That woman, in her late 50s was moved to a different area where she was forced to work, early shifts, late shifts and night shifts each week. She almost died.

Such laws work for back people because the vast majority find any marginalisation of people because of their race to be distastful and quite disgusting.

Such laws work quite well for women. In largely female environments, they tend to be irrelevant. In largely mixed environments, most women and any men will support the woman. In largely male environments, it is generally quite easy, if necessary, for the woman to demosntrate some sexual harrassment. Few employers want to risk that.

What these demonstrate is support. Support for the majority of fellows.

Transgendered people, regretably, don't have that support.

A law is an irrelevance if people ignore it.

I finally broke down and bought the DVD through Amazon.  It came today and we watched it tonight.

It's getting near sleepytime and I'm too tired to go into a lot of detail.   But I will say parts of it were scary!  The things these Mormons do to eradicate homosexuality boarders on Nazi concentration camp tactics.  These people are dangerous!

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 18, 2010, 11:18:27 PM
I finally broke down and bought the DVD through Amazon.  It came today and we watched it tonight.

It's getting near sleepytime and I'm too tired to go into a lot of detail.   But I will say parts of it were scary!  The things these Mormons do to eradicate homosexuality boarders on Nazi concentration camp tactics.  These people are dangerous!

When Mormons (or any other well organized, non-splintered group) start throwing people in concentration camps - I hope more than some video will know about it.

Picking up where I left off last night (but still pressed for time)...

I kind of expected some poking fun at the Mormons for their unconventional beliefs.  What I got instead was an exposé on the LDS that was both shocking and sobering.  The extent they will go to in order to make the world the way they want it is at times criminal.  But since they are a church with billions in assets and they wield substantial power, no one in power will go after them.  Even the IRS only gave them a slap on the hand.

One man told of being outed when he was attending BYU.  The campus police called him and asked him to "stop by" because they needed to talk.  He was then subjected to torture at the hands of these thugs including being strapped to a chair, wired for electrical shock at the chest, head and testicles, and told to look at slides on the wall.  When a picture made him think of sin he was to push the button in his hand to administer electrical shock.  And if he didn't do it to their satisfaction, they would do it for him.  The man has a tortured look on his face that spoke of serious PTSD.

He also told of a friend of his who had undergone the same thing, except this man refused to push the button, so they did it for him.  The damage from the electrical shock was so severe it had destroyed the nerves in the genital area.  The man later committed suicide.

Another gay man tired his best to fend off gay feelings but he just couldn't stop it.  One day, in his 20's, he walked into a LDS church and blew his brains out.  He had pinned to his shirt a note that said "Do not resuscitate."  His parents, devout Mormons, were later interviewed and they said their son's death was "a relief".  They also said the only opinion they have is the one the church has.

Talk about brainwashing!

One family gave their entire life savings, $50,000, to the Prop 8 campaign because they were told to by their prophet, Thomas S. Monson.  Mormons believe whatever their prophet says is the same as if it came from god.  The family had four small children and the money they saved over the years was for the kid's college.

There was no poking fun.  Instead it was the story of a religious institution that breaks the law and gets away with it.  The IRS says in its tax code no non-profit organization shall be involved in political action (sic) or they will lose their tax-exempt status.  The Church of the Latter Day Saints have funneled tens of millions into anti-gay marriage campaigns but the IRS has done nothing to investigate.

Fred Karger exposed the church with their own documents and challenged the government to investigate.  In an unprecedented move, they did.  The $2,000 PAC contribution they listed in their original tax filing was upped to about $190,000, despite the fact that their own documents showed the number to be much larger.  They were fined $5,500, barely even a slap on the wrist.

Money, power, religion - a deadly combination when it is abused.  Karger exposed them for being the driving force behind anti-gay marriage campaigns in Hawaii and California.  Yet they still operate as a non-profit religious organization.

Now if you want to talk politics, we'll get into that later.  It's time to hit the links!

Just been re-reading some of my posts in this thread. I know I have offended some. I do apologise.

Spacial:

Perhaps the greatest right that any one has in regard to any government is the right to both laugh and cry about it, and maybe at the same time.  We "bloody yanks" offend each other so often (like about 45 times today alone) that it really makes little difference about who the offense comes from.  Listening to the views of those who see us from outside the fish bowl is a test of our commitment to whatever ideals we truly believe in and honor.   

Thank you Vicky.

I do believe that each of us, no-matter where we are, should take an interest in the management of other societies. Firstly, of course, those there can correct our misconceptions. But equally, each of us, almost everybody in the world, are ordinary people, without power. Societies need management. Kinda obvious really. But government exists for the benefit of society and I deny the right of any government to control how their people choose to live. People must decide. Societies progress at their own pace. But they must alwasy move forward.

My apology here was made and remains because this forum was not really the place to agitate people. Moreover, the sensitivity of the subject in hand deserved a little more support for those affected.

I'm trying to stay back for this very reason. But I want to toss this out there.

As I said in my introduction, I've been raised in the Mormon church. I haven't seen the video yet, but I can imagine what it is. There's a lot of extremism in these videos, and not having been there firsthand, I can't say "Oh, that wasn't the church" but I can say "That isn't what the church teaches."

The church teaches acceptance of all people. Of course, they also believe a great deal involving sexual relations and yes, gender, and many of the privileges of the church are closed to people who don't follow the law they set forth. The church, however, does not teach to engage in "witch hunts" or extreme correctional behavior. One of the guiding principles of the church is all people have the freedom to choose how to live. That's one of the things the "Gospel" revolves around.

Tragically, the "Church" and the "Gospel" don't always agree. There's a lot of stigma, even among the members, to live a certain way. All young men are expected to go on missions. All young women are expected to marry a returned missionary and have kids. It's how they work. It's become more of a culture than a church.

It was Prop 8 that actually caused me to sit back and say "Hey, wait a second. Something isn't right." I count myself blessed to have a great amount of caring for all people, no matter who they are. And the idea that this church, which is supposed to encourage free agency, is trying to prevent it, startled me. I took a moment and asked myself "Okay, why is it our business if these people marry or not?"

The Mormon part of me says "Because it's a sacred binding, and should be taken as God intended."

The kind, openminded part counters "But not everyone believes as we do. This is saying 'believe like we do, or be wrong.'"

And it goes back and forth. I'm getting way off topic though, so let me haul it back in. I don't think that right answer is to go all up in arms against the Mormons, though as someone who is having a lot of trouble cutting ties with them, largely because my entire family is heavily Mormon, I could be prejudiced.

I just wanted to say my piece, considering my position. I don't know about how extreme these things get, since I'm an eastern Mormon, and I'm not active at that. But I still think anger will only lead to more anger, fighting, and sorrow.

Thank you Astarielle for a very well written post.  While watching the documentary, and especially after it was over and some of the atrocities members claimed had time to sink in, I found myself both very angered and frightened at the possibility a religious organization could engage in such behavior.  As time went on, I found myself wondering why I had taken on such negative emotions about an organization that all I really know is their involvement in campaigning against gay marriage.  So I stepped back for a bit.

I understand your perspective and appreciate your frankness.  But, just as I never thought the Catholic church was perfect, it seems you realize the LDS church may not be either.  And that just leaves a question of doubt regarding what these churches REALLY are capable of.

When a religious organization engages in anti-civil rights campaigns, well, there's something terribly wrong about that.  Growing up, I was taught God loves us all, unconditionally.  Therefore it makes no sense anyone who is doing something on behalf of God should ever hurt one of God's creations.  Somewhere along the line the preachings that included quotes from the Bible, "and God said", the "word of God" stuff, just didn't stick.  That was the stuff of man.  God loves us all and if we want to be more Godlike we should love us too.  It's hard to hurt someone you truly love.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  When I learned how Mormons view the man they call their prophet, I thought, "Oh, that's not good."  History has convinced me if you give any man too much power, he will abuse it.  The power goes to his head, he thinks he's above everyone else and makes his own rules.  Even Tiger Woods succumbed to that one.  But when you make man the earthly equivalent of God, OH BOY!  WATCH OUT!

So when I found out about the Mormon involvement in anti-gay marriage sentiment (it wasn't just involvement, they initiated the movement and spearheaded the efforts, although behind the scenes), first in Hawaii then in other states, I reasoned someone had let power go to their head(s) and they were making their own rules.  And armed with $10 billion in assets and millions of devoted followers at their beck and call, they became a very real force in trying to shape our laws.  So much for separation of church and state.

Many of our Founding Fathers (US) were anti-christian.  Thomas Jefferson said, "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."  John Adams wrote, "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"  Ben Franklin was an atheist.

The point is this country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion.  But certain christian leaders will try to make you believe this nation was founded on chrisitanity.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

And that again takes me back to God and those who claim to follow God's will.  One of the traits I applied to this all loving God was truth.  So, if you are following the will of God, not only will you be all loving, you will also be truthful.  You cannot lie if you are truly connected to God.  And these religious people often times flat out lie to promote their agenda.  That's not God's will, it's man's will.

If you've made it this far in my post you may understand why I have such a problem believing so many of these religious leaders.  Too many I see as selfish people promoting their agenda regardless of the cost.  And some I honestly wonder if I'm looking at an anti-christ or maybe even the devil himself.  "Beware false prophets."

I have to admit, Mormonism, to me, looks like a very misogynistic organization - their beliefs in polygamy, hundreds of spirit wives in the after life and other things I've read - and that feeds into their anti-gay sentiment.  Allowing gays to marry will ruin their chances of getting laid in heaven.  Somehow I can't see God really creating such an afterlife.

But, no matter how you slice it, religion needs to get out of the civil rights business and if they don't they should lose their tax exempt status.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 21, 2010, 09:48:05 AM

I have to admit, Mormonism, to me, looks like a very misogynistic organization - their beliefs in polygamy, hundreds of spirit wives in the after life and other things I've read - and that feeds into their anti-gay sentiment.  Allowing gays to marry will ruin their chances of getting laid in heaven.  Somehow I can't see God really creating such an afterlife.
.

I just want to pull this out and address it directly. I'm trying to be careful since there's still some attachments to the church, I never really explored the world outside the church so it's all I knew for 19 years, but this is wrong.

Mormons no longer practice polygamy, and if there's hundreds of spirit wives in heaven, I don't know about it. In fact, according to the teaching of the church, in order to reach the highest level of glory in heaven, you have to be married to one person in the temple and sealed together for eternity.

The reasoning, that I was told, behind being against gay marriage is, as I said, marriage is a sacred ordinance ordained by God. The purpose of it is for a man and a woman to be of one flesh and bring a family into the earth.

"...God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."
       -The Family: A Proclamation to the World.


So that is entirely true; the Mormon church encourages large families, and gay couples have no kids.

I am sorry but if procreation is the only reason for marriage, then those who can not have children should not marry.  Which it totally BS.

All it is is a reason to discriminate against another person.    Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 21, 2010, 11:44:31 AM
I am sorry but if procreation is the only reason for marriage, then those who can not have children should not marry.  Which it totally BS.

All it is is a reason to discriminate against another person.    Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

See, this is what I'm trying to avoid. It's not fair to the majority of the people who believe in the Mormon church to blame them for doing what they think is right, even if you believe it's wrong. Anger will only lead to sorrow.

Back on topic, I should amend my statement, yes. Procreation isn't the only reason to marry, but it's a large part of the reason for Mormons. I agree with you, that people should marry who they love, regardless of what people think. I'm merely putting forth the facts.