Hiee,

  I have musing about this for some time now, well actually since my Orchie back in May of this year.
My musings are mostly concerned with M->F's but would apply to F-M's to some degree although differing proceedures are indicated.

  Back in the days (GRS)/SRS was commonly called a Sex change operation, primarily because and orchiectomy was bundled with the vaginioplasty. Today that is NO longer the case as Orchie's can be had on their own account much more readily then in the past.

  The issue being, either an orchiectomy or hystorectomy is actually the operation that changes ones hormonal system by eliminating the organs that actually produce the birthsex Hormone in any quantities.

  I consider myself to be Post-Op albeit a Vaginioplasty Pre-Op which in my case is only a cosmetic surgory anyhow although one that will allow my mind to be much more at peace.

  OOOHHHHH aren't Labels sooooooooo much FUN 

  Comments anyone?

Byee,
  Brina

FtM's same - we have three possible areas of surgery. Top, hysto, and bottom. Many of us just get the first one or two and never want bottom surgery. I'd say you're post op when you want to call yourself that.

Dennis

Hiee Denis,

  I guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.

Byee,
  Brina

I would have to agree with your analogy in that the orchie is the actual sex changing part of the process, like you said the inability to produce your birth hormone has been changed as a result you will begin to develop secondary sexual characteristics prevalent in the bodies new role. Years ago I saw a picture of a MtoF that had not under gone actual SRS, I think she was a dentist or something, her testis were surgically and permanently implanted to her abdomen and her penis was inverted to form a vagina her breast were surgically implanted and FFS was done she took no HRT but looked completely female. I wish I could remember her name.....

One very cool thing, not to change the subject but ever sense I began certain HRT meds I am no longer able to gain an erection  but the cool part is that I can push that nasty thing up inside of me a small strei strip and its is held in place. So I suppose when I have my orchie and the sack removed I will have the smooth look I so want, a urethra reroute and stuff the nasty up inside me and see no reason why I could not call myself a post op woman also.

Depends on the person's definitions... I'm a bit traditional. To me, it means GRS, vaginoplasty, etc. To others, it may not.

No big deal; these kind of definitions aren't that important on a day-to-day basis although I'm not entirely sure how the UK's Gender Recognition Panel sees things or how it would be defined under my own country's laws on birth certificates/passports etc. Interesting question.


But I don't go around with a badge saying 'post-op' on my sleeve like a boy scout.

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 29, 2006, 10:46:33 AM
Depends on the person's definitions... I'm a bit traditional. To me, it means GRS, vaginoplasty, etc. To others, it may not.

No big deal; these kind of definitions aren't that important on a day-to-day basis although I'm not entirely sure how the UK's Gender Recognition Panel sees things or how it would be defined under my own country's laws on birth certificates/passports etc. Interesting question.


But I don't go around with a badge saying 'post-op' on my sleeve like a boy scout.

Very true I suppose that part of it would be how a person feels about were they are in there transition. I look at like this, do GG have testis? NO. Can a GG have an erection? NO. so if you to can answer NO to the same questions then you would be considered safe among GG's and sense only other women are considered safe then you must be a woman. However, you have raised and interesting question on the legal side, I suppose if you found a doctor that would agree with your definition then they could in fact give you the documentation one might need to alter birth records etc.

QuoteI guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.

I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!

I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!

Hiee,

  To clarrify a few issues. The surgories I was refering to are surgories performed on Transexuals as Transexual surgories and not as in the case of a natal woman a standard hysto or an orchie in the case of a man. The surgories are performed on generally healthy organs to REMOVE the birthsex hormone and NOT generally due to other medical complications.

  In Canada in most if not all jurisdictions if the surgory is performed as an irreversable transexual surgory and the surgeon and an independent doctor both agree that it is as above and that the individuals gender should be changed then usually there is no problem in having the birth records changed to the target gender.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: angelsgirl on November 29, 2006, 02:25:54 PM

QuoteI guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.

I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!

I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!

Not wrong just a different view............

Quote from: angelsgirl on November 29, 2006, 02:25:54 PM
I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!

I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!

Turn you into a man... not a chance in "he double hockysticks" angelsgirl.   There are two views on GRS/SRS for MtF one is where some believe that simply removing the testes is sufficient to be legally eligible to change the gender marker, as do many Dr and therapists.  Then there is the other side of the coin where there are those who feel/believe that complete removal of the genitals and reconstruction of a neo vagina must take place, and again this is also supported by many Dr and therapists.

Personally, for myself, there has to be complete acceptance of the TS person by others, and by this there should be no doubt that you are a woman.  For example, for me I should be able to stand naked in the women's change room and no one will bat an eye lid.  I'm not so sure that a person who has had a ochi would be able to do that.

Steph

To me, Post-Op constitutes Post Sex Reassignment Surgery/Male to Female Vaginoplasty, meaning that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris.

tinkerbell

Hi Brina.
Orchiectomies and hysterectomies are sufficient to change legal gender in some states.
So, as you said, technically these are the sex changing surgeries.
However, if an MtF told me she was post-op, I would assume she'd had a vaginoplasty.
If an FtM called himself post-op, I'd assume he'd had a masectomy.
Because these are the most common surgeries.

In my world if you can walk into a gender appropriate locker room, that is appropriate to the gender you identify with, and take off all your clothes and not shock anyone with what's between your legs, then you're post op.

When we are born they look between our legs to determine gender.  That's the way this society does things.  I know how I feel inside but they won't accept that as proof of gender.  If you're a transitioning TS and can pass the between the legs test then you're post op.  That's just me.  I don't want to have to do any explaining as to why I'm female if I still have a penis between my legs.

Julie

Hiee,

  Well I guess I have certainly learned something from this thread to date. To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses. It truly bothers me that only about 10 MAYBE 15% of transexuals ever arrive at the point of actually having FULL SRS and by the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker. Personally I would never dream of going into a womans change room OR Even a Gym until after my vaginioplasty and therefor the issue's raised seem moot to me. Some of you work in MALE mode and others are in postions of being well protected by Government policies regarding transgenders. My Question is WHAT about those who are afforded NO Protections currently? While the current rules aren't exactly broken they can sure use improvement in my opinion. We are trying to make life safer and easier for all Transexuals are we NOT!

Byee,
  Brina

Hello Brina.

Quote from: brina on November 30, 2006, 08:50:47 AM
Hiee,

  Well I guess I have certainly learned something from this thread to date. To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses. It truly bothers me that only about 10 MAYBE 15% of transexuals ever arrive at the point of actually having FULL SRS and by the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker. Personally I would never dream of going into a womans change room OR Even a Gym until after my vaginioplasty and therefor the issue's raised seem moot to me. Some of you work in MALE mode and others are in postions of being well protected by Government policies regarding transgenders. My Question is WHAT about those who are afforded NO Protections currently? While the current rules aren't exactly broken they can sure use improvement in my opinion. We are trying to make life safer and easier for all Transexuals are we NOT!

Byee,
  Brina

I think that you will find that the replies were personal opinions, and personal opinions only.  And as far as those who are afforded no protections then it is up to you to do something about it, or at least do something about it in your area.

Steph

That is the way I believe that if you are in a dressing room in your bithday suit that you wouldn't be noticed. I do believe that getting an Orchi is like have SRS in that you have irreversible surgery and you should be able to do what you want as a woman. The same applies for the hystorectomy. It isn't about your physiology, its about what is between your ears. If you are a woman and have a total  or partial hysto, you are still a woman. If you have had cancer of the testes or whatever else that will take them off, that doesn't make you a woman you are still a man if that is how you feel. I know when I had my orchi they let me change all my paper work to female. The most validating piece of paper was from my therapist. I have gone to dressing rooms after my orchi and you have to be discreet about it. Just like most FtoM will most likely have to be a little more discreet about going into a dressing room. It can be done very effectively.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on November 30, 2006, 01:06:30 PM
That is the way I believe that if you are in a dressing room in your bithday suit that you wouldn't be noticed. I do believe that getting an Orchi is like have SRS in that you have irreversible surgery and you should be able to do what you want as a woman. The same applies for the hystorectomy. It isn't about your physiology, its about what is between your ears. If you are a woman and have a total  or partial hysto, you are still a woman. If you have had cancer of the testes or whatever else that will take them off, that doesn't make you a woman you are still a man if that is how you feel. I know when I had my orchi they let me change all my paper work to female. The most validating piece of paper was from my therapist. I have gone to dressing rooms after my orchi and you have to be discreet about it. Just like most FtoM will most likely have to be a little more discreet about going into a dressing room. It can be done very effectively.
Sheila

I'm pretty sure that most places allow for gender markers to be changed for a person having letters from therapists and an ochi.  I believe that others get confused with the notion that a man can have an ochi because of cancer and that person is still a man.  Then if a person goes through therapy and has an ochi approved is considered a woman, as sheila said it's what's between the ears.

And for Brina

I would just like to reiterate my position on this.  The question was asked "What constitutes a post-op?"  and I simply stated my answer.  I didn't say I was right, I gave my opinion, and I will go further by saying that I can understand that a MtF would want to have an ochi in order to cut down on meds, a smart thing to do, I even considered doing the same thing.  However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery.  And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi.  Why would a woman want to retain a penis?

Just my humble opinion.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 30, 2006, 01:46:34 PM
Why would a woman want to retain a penis?

Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one.   I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.

Melissa

Steph wrote
"
However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery.  And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi.  Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
"
  So in other words for those who are unable to afford a FULL SRS in one swipe of the knife, they should have to endure perhaps years if not a life time of living in the Gender Twilight Zone! Personally I find that most appauling and most certainly un-sympathetic to the under priviledged within our ranks. As to PENIS retention I seroiusly doubt if anyone after having undergone an orchiectomy would truly have a desire to keep it, however; not everyone has the fiscal resources to move to the final stage swiftly. Its no wonder so precious little gets done to advance the cause of transexualism when the very ones who have battled it support the very views of the society that causes the oppression to begin with.  Two or three years ago I read several generalized articles written about  transexuals. At the time I thought to myself what BS this stuff is. Since then its become rather painfully aware to me that they had it right in way more ways then not. It really saddens me to see that.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 29, 2006, 10:24:22 PM
To me, Post-Op constitutes Post Sex Reassignment Surgery/Male to Female Vaginoplasty, meaning that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris.

What Tink said.