Quote from: Kvall on August 29, 2010, 01:15:47 PM
Attempting to demonstrate that the HRT some trans men take is dangerous by pointing to methyltestosterone, to steroid abuse by bodybuilders and athletes, and to the normal risk factor carried by men, in fact, misleading, erroneous, and harmful, and to me demonstrate that you did not understand the information you were presenting and were simply going, "look, something that seems to say it's bad." Then claiming that you don't even need to say that they're dangerous and harmful because the science saying so is already there. Yeah, uh-huh.

Are there long-term unknowns? Yes, but that is not a reason to characterize it the way you have, nor does it justify bringing in such misused information.

For almost 12 years I've been studying natural medicine and nutrition - that is my perspective and that is what I know a lot more about than the average person who has not studied that kind of info. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to prescription drugs but still you're twisting around my main points (which I've said multiple times now) and making me into some jerk who has no idea what he's talking about and just wants to scare everyone with misinformation. I wasn't aware that the PDR information on each injectable form of testosterone was bringing in "misused information" as you put it. What you get from your doctor is a edited version of that. Or posting a wikipedia link to how hormones work in the body.

You took a simple paragraph like, "While injections may bring your hormones to a normal level of a bio male (which is roughly about 3-10x that of a female), you don't have the bio male body chemistry naturally. All these studies have been done on bio men and high doses in them can lead to the side effects like in the links above. So with a female-bodied human being taking it, they can relate some of the side effects but there are unknown factors because the studies just have not been done." I said nothing about transmen being at higher risk here. That's something you're totally just adding in. Doctors were only theorizing what side effect could be in female bodied individuals because they didn't have the all the data and that's why they are supposed to run tests while you're taking it. At least do me the decency to admit that there CAN be side effects. That is all I'm putting out there.

Why is it you think doctors recommend transmen who have been on T several years to get a full hysto? They're not certain, but they want to avoid any increased cancer risks. Ask your own doctor about it.

I only mentioned PCOS in so far as it relates to abnormal levels of testosterone and doctor's concerns about what a long-term prescription of T can do to the ovaries. Obviously for PCOS to occur in someone there do have to be other factors. Have you not stopped to consider that many FTMs could have undiagnosed PCOS prior to taking T? As far as I know, there's no studies on that specifically either.

I never mentioned reduction in life expectancy - that's something you added and are running with.

I've read the Netherlands study and yes it would be interesting to see more specific studies on what extra hormones do throughout the systems of the body as well as studies on larger sample sizes than 876.

Taking aspirin has a freakin' risk - by stating that science already has the data all I was referring to was the links to the drugs information. Anything put into a human body has risks, side effects, etc. As for other facts - methyltestosterone is intramuscular testosterone and even on the lowest doses doctors still run tests while you're taking it to make sure that no adverse effects are happening (because every body is different). Honestly I only referenced body builders (and by the way, there are female body builders) taking it because if they can get it, so can others who are desperate to take it - and that does happen. I didn't even want to mention anything about self-medicating but there are people out there that do it - maybe if they read some of this information they would be dissuaded and hold out to go to a doctor? I've been through a lot of ->-bleeped-<- in my life, including being addicted to substances, and I know how desperation can lead to bad decisions. Fact is fact that taking anything outside of a doctor's care is dangerous and bad and that is what I was hoping to not have to say. I'm sorry I didn't though because you've taken everything I've put out there, saw it your own way and made me into the bad guy here. I'm really sorry if there's other people on here that are taking this all the same way - especially after two long ass follow up posts where I try to explain the only points I was making even more clearly.

Also, can we go back to talking about natural stuff in this thread?

You are right on the very edge of TOS rule 15.

Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Please discuss the topic and not each other or the thread will be locked.

That said you both make some interesting points so I am going to leave this as a friendly in thread warning for now.

Jenny

Quote from: rejennyrated on August 30, 2010, 03:31:31 AM
You are right on the very edge of TOS rule 15.

Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Please discuss the topic and not each other or the thread will be locked.

That said you both make some interesting points so I am going to leave this as a friendly in thread warning for now.

Jenny

Actually I'd prefer if you just deleted the thread, or the back and forth posts.

Try STIMUTAX! It's a herbal dietary supplement I knocked up. Completely 100% safe. All natural, mostly kelp  .


(Your thread needed lightening up... I'll get my coat).

Quote from: Teknoir on August 30, 2010, 04:27:23 AM
Try STIMUTAX! It's a herbal dietary supplement I knocked up. Completely 100% safe. All natural, mostly kelp  .


(Your thread needed lightening up... I'll get my coat).

LOL I wonder how many other people will actually get that one

Just a few last comments on the HRT topic for anyone coming in late.

1. It was never my intention to "mislead" anyone - original I meant to present information on general HRT, the full drug info for forms of testosterone, and information on other types of hormone imbalance. I also referenced anabolic steroids because there are people out there who, because of one reason or another, think that's a solution. It's actually dangerous to self-medicate and the reasons why I linked to side effects of those were simply to put the info out there to possibly dissuade anyone from that. Obviously anyone who is going to a legit doctor for T for the purpose of transition should be under that doctors care, getting tests, have specific dosages, etc.

2. I simply wanted to illustration how important hormones were to the body, and that imbalances have the potential to cause different health problems.

I'm sorry if the way I presented it made it seem like I was saying doctor prescribed T for transition was all around bad.

Obviously taking T is a very big decision and one that should ALWAYS be weighed carefully by the individual and the prescription and monitoring while one takes it should only be done through a qualified doctor. Taking it will have some permanent effects. If your doctor doesn't go through all the details with you to your satisfaction, ask questions, do your own research ... whatever it takes to feel comfortable about your decision.

The fact remains that some people, for whatever reason, can not or will not have any HRT. Some people have it for awhile then come off it. Everyone is in a different situation.

Originally I didn't start this thread to even advocate "natural transition". Someone pointed to a youtube early on of a guy who claims to have transitioned "naturally". Since I am heavily involved in alternative health and nutrition I checked it out further to find that the supplements he was taking were questionable at best. I can't stress enough how important it is to really know what your doing with supplements. Because they're easy to get and are not regulated the same way as pharmaceutical drugs they can sometimes be more dangerous. Some of the supplements on his list, such as Tribulus Terrestris, can have very serious side effects. The FDA currently has consumer warnings out about many supplements targeted to body builders that contain this and other substances. So in short, be careful with anything you put in your body.

So what do I think is "natural" then? Well, how about mindset? There's nothing more natural than just knowing who you are and being yourself. Most people struggle with this because society doesn't view them as male. So what can people do to feel more comfortable with themselves? Are there any physical exercises, voice exercises, styles of dressing, safe supplements, etc. that can help a person to just feel more comfortable with who they are? That is what I'm talking about is natural.

I've got a lot of experience with nutrition and natural supplementation. I'm not an M.D. and I can't tell you what to do but I can share any experience I have and make some suggestions on things that you can research or ask your health care provider about.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 30, 2010, 02:04:12 PM
So what can people do to feel more comfortable with themselves? Are there any physical exercises, voice exercises, styles of dressing, safe supplements, etc. that can help a person to just feel more comfortable with who they are? That is what I'm talking about is natural.

Speaking of voice...hahaha...I remember that Lou Sullivan's FTM book recommends an audiocassette to help people with voice issues. I never got it, but I remember looking it up a little while ago on bookfinder.com. It was available and pretty cheap.

It's called The Sound of Your Voice, by Carol Fleming.

Quote from: Arch on August 30, 2010, 05:34:38 PM
Speaking of voice...hahaha...I remember that Lou Sullivan's FTM book recommends an audiocassette to help people with voice issues. I can't remember the title, and I never got it, but I remember looking it up a little while ago on bookfinder.com. It was available and pretty cheap.

It's called The Sound of Your Voice, by Carol Fleming.

There's no question that a voice can be trained to do all sorts of things (just look towards singers) and over time people have successfully lowered their voice through various techniques. There's plenty of bio guys out there that have higher range voices as well and I know some products are targeted specifically to them. I always love when I come across a bio guy with a high voice though, makes me smile

http://www.livestrong.com/article/21635-increase-testosterone-levels-naturally-women/

One thing about Ginseng is that the "hot" varieties (panex, red, Asian, Korean ... etc.) have more noticeable or frequent side effects. For one, they're a phytoestrogenic herb (meaning they will increase estrogen - in Chinese Traditional Medicine it's often given to menopausal women instead of HRT because of this). Side effects of it can include nervousness and insomnia so if you're prone to that sort of thing it's generally not recommended. Generally people will take it for a couple months on, then one month off. The "colder" varieties of Ginseng (American, Siberian) can be taken more long term for general overall health.

In regards to tofu - I'd personally avoid it. It's another phytoestrogen and it's a really low-quality form of protein. The "health-nut" fervor of tofu has mostly been proven to be a crock. Tofu itself is not that healthy. The fermented varieties is where the Japanese have been gaining health benefits for centuries (look for Tempeh - that's a fermented variety and much more quality that  tofu). If you want to boost protein intake, look for a high-quality whey protein. Supplementing with protein more when you do heavy workouts can help you to "bulk up" more as well.

In regards to alcohol - beer is another phytoestrogen (the hops in it) ... which is why a lot of beer guzzling dudes get moobs lol. And like it says in the article is disrupts hormone function in general.

As for the other things in this article, seems pretty straight forward. It's meant for just general health, not specifically raising T levels past "normal".

I also found this article recently as I'm doing more research into what would be a good workout: http://www.bodybuildinghub.com/Increasing-Testosterone-and-Testosterone-Receptors.html Yes, it's target audience is body builders but there's some interesting information about the types of exercises natural body builders are using to gain new muscle and also info on testosterone receptors. Also interesting to note is that too much training can actually lead to a drop in testosterone. So there's no need to be constantly going to the gym (yay!).

Here's another interesting article http://hubpages.com/hub/Natural-ways-to-increase-testosterone-levels-with-exercise-and-diet - the author does note that it's written more for the (bio)male audience but it also talks about some quality exercises. Another interesting note was the info n HGH (human growth hormone) which is finally getting more studies. There was a health "craze" awhile back on this stuff and I was leery of it from the beginning.