Quote from: Tippe on September 09, 2010, 12:21:56 PM
That's what they do in Denmark. They have told me they are much inspired by English doctors too. Hmm, now I know who!

Very probably so John Randall practiced from the mid 60s' to about 1983 Don Montgomery from 1987 to about 1997.

I saw Randall in 1976 - but made no real progress until the mid 1980's by when he was thankfully history.

More recently I gather things are slightly better at CXH anyway although it remains the case in the UK that if you want to get rapid progress private treatment, if you can afford it, remains the best option.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 09, 2010, 10:03:43 AM
manginas aren't she's they are he's

so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

I actually read that to understand they're MTF physically but not mentally... ?? My 2p

Quote from: rejennyrated on September 09, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
Very probably so John Randall practiced from the mid 60s' to about 1983 Don Montgomery from 1987 to about 1997.

I saw Randall in 1976 - but made no real progress until the mid 1980's by when he was thankfully history.

More recently I gather things are slightly better at CXH anyway although it remains the case in the UK that if you want to get rapid progress private treatment, if you can afford it, remains the best option.

Hi Jenny,

I know I've had my ups and downs with my clinics but my transition took just over three years from the time of first appointment to GRS. I guess that's kind of fast tracking here in the UK on the NHS, lol.

Stardust

Hi Jessica,

Muffin has a good point. Something I don't understand is how a person can think that things as liking beer is something exclusively reserved for men?
So basically he is judging you according to his personal idea of femininity. That is kind of close minded for a psychiatrist, don't you think?

All in all I have very mixed feelings about psychiatrists. Because of my profession I have visited plenty of them as part of a selection procedure for job applications.
I don't like how they try to grasp someones personality from just an hour and a half worth of information. One was particularly interested in possible near death experiences  I had

Psychiatrist are not perfect (like the rest of humanity). One person may like you, another may dislike you. Personal opinion is still a factor in their conclusions.

It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.
I wouldn't be surprised if they let the pretty ones straight though no questions asked but the ones that physically have more uphill battles have to jump through more hoops to prove ones self.
They can only get inside your head so much to determine ones gender so the physical is no doubt something they consider, from their side of the table something quite important.
IF this is true then it's unfortunate.. because really only subjective personal opinion can really be used to determine whether one passes or not, so some therapists are going to seem nicer than others... but also in a way good because it can be easy to convince ones self that you pass well enough when it's a percentage thing. Some people will pick you some won't. I though I used to pass well a year ago but now I look back and think wtf? compared to now at least.

I guess it can also be viewed as a double standard, you can have one therapist convincing you that you have to learn to accept who you are before others accept you so you do that and then a psychiatrist says nuh uh. *shrugs*.
It is our life if we are ok with what we are going through then shouldn't that be enough? Are they seeing doubt because they let their own personal opinion get in the way? The fact you can go to one doctor and get a no and then go to another doctor and get a yes speaks volumes.

Quote from: Muffin on September 09, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.
I wouldn't be surprised if they let the pretty ones straight though no questions asked but the ones that physically have more uphill battles have to jump through more hoops to prove ones self.
They can only get inside your head so much to determine ones gender so the physical is no doubt something they consider, from their side of the table something quite important.
IF this is true then it's unfortunate.. because really only subjective personal opinion can really be used to determine whether one passes or not, so some therapists are going to seem nicer than others... but also in a way good because it can be easy to convince ones self that you pass well enough when it's a percentage thing. Some people will pick you some won't. I though I used to pass well a year ago but now I look back and think wtf? compared to now at least.

I guess it can also be viewed as a double standard, you can have one therapist convincing you that you have to learn to accept who you are before others accept you so you do that and then a psychiatrist says nuh uh. *shrugs*.
It is our life if we are ok with what we are going through then shouldn't that be enough? Are they seeing doubt because they let their own personal opinion get in the way? The fact you can go to one doctor and get a no and then go to another doctor and get a yes speaks volumes.

To be honest, I think the whole "real life test" concept is stupid. I think the unnatural way in which some providers turn transition into a clinical process is purely about serving their interests, and nothing to do with ours.

My life.... is not a test. I'm an adult, and I outright reject any concept that my day to day living is a 'test' for someone who barely even knows me.

I've had arguments about this on this forum before, but I think things would be a whole lot better if treatment for trans issues were more left in the patients hands than it is right now.

And I highly reject the notion perpetuated on this forum especially that medical providers are the only ones competent enough to know what they're doing in these matters.

Quote from: Muffin on September 09, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.

I guess I really lucked out.  My therapist and shrink were up front that all that really matters is whether or not the person is going to regret surgery, and there are no requirements to pass or be stealth or anything.  Just a persistent desire for surgery for a year or more, combined living in the destination gender role for that year, plus psych eval to make sure the person is mentally healthy.  That's it.

That's partly why I find particularly offensive any suggestion that someone who doesn't regret the surgery should have been denied it because they are really a "mangina" on the basis that they don't pass or conform to a gender sereotypes or whatever.  I really hope that is not what was meant upthread.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 08:51:55 PM
I guess I really lucked out.  My therapist and shrink were up front that all that really matters is whether or not the person is going to regret surgery, and there are no requirements to pass or be stealth or anything.  Just a persistent desire for surgery for a year or more, combined living in the destination gender role for that year, plus psych eval to make sure the person is mentally healthy.  That's it.

That's partly why I find particularly offensive any suggestion that someone who doesn't regret the surgery should have been denied it because they are really a "mangina" on the basis that they don't pass or confrom to a gender sereotypes or whatever.  I really hope that is not what was meant upthread.

It's the "combined living in the destination gender role for that year" part I take issue with.

I think the underlying concept is ok, but the problem is that I think the vast majority of people consider male and female gender roles to be far more significant than in reality.

My opinion is that "living in the destination gender role" is nothing more than your being treated as your target gender for that time due to greater than 50% passing in that gender role. It's NOTHING to do with your behavior, interests, manner of dress, etc. The problem is that some providers consider living in your target gender role to be so specific, that the majority of people in that target gender don't comply. Ironically, you're given expectations that are less accurate to living in that gender role, due to an attempt to be more accurate.

And some people take enforcement of that rule to extremes, like expecting 'proof' of living.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 09, 2010, 08:51:15 PM

I think things would be a whole lot better if treatment for trans issues were more left in the patients hands than it is right now.

I tend to agree, especially if the person has already had one of the many elective surgeries (i.e., breast implants or mastectomy) for which permission is not required, and they have not regretted it.  The requirement for psych eval and so forth is a bit of a hold over from stigma over transitioners being suspect as crazy.  There is a type of schizophenia in which the person claims to be the other gender, but that type of mental condition is really obvious, and the one year rlt is not needed to weed those people out.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 09, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
My opinion is that "living in the destination gender role" is nothing more than your being treated as your target gender for that time due to greater than even passing in that gender role. It's NOTHING to do with your behavior, interests, manner of dress, etc.

I think the RLE is considered more important in the case where the person doesn't pass and they want that person to experience the reality of what it will be like to live that way the rest of their life before the surgery happens, not after.  Maybe there is some value in that, but I don't think it will make a difference for most of us.  We don't typically decide to transition except as a last resort.

If we can agree that gender is a cultural thing not a physical thing...where as sex is a biological/physical thing and not a cultural thing.....

You can see why the 'gate-keepers' require you to pass the cultural test, for your locale nation, state or area...before they'll pass your papers to get the physicality thang going... in the right direction.

Therefore if you know this is 'the deal' then it's a no-brainer not to try and match there ideal as much as possible... surely?

Like driving tests...no one drives that way post the test...but to get the ticket for a wee while you do have to play by the 'systems' rules....

Its' not perfect program by a long-shot but there you have it....it's a system made up by only medical trained human beans....therefore whadaya expect? We're flawed, what we oft do is flawed....

Re Muffins point about being 'attractive' sadly that's bang on true....but then again how does that differ from mainstream cultural values in anyway....? Take a look inside any woman's magazine....lol

Are we getting the point now....?

Quote from: Cruelladeville on September 09, 2010, 10:26:20 PM
If we can agree that gender is a cultural thing not a physical thing...where as sex is a biological/physical thing and not a cultural thing.....

You can see why the 'gate-keepers' require you to pass the cultural test, for your locale nation, state or area...before they'll pass your papers to get the physicality thang going... in the right direction.

Therefore if you know this is 'the deal' then it's a no-brainer not to try and match there ideal as much as possible... surely?

Like driving tests...no one drives that way post the test...but to get the ticket for a wee while you do have to play by the 'systems' rules....

Its' not perfect program by a long-shot but there you have it....it's a system made up by only medical trained human beans....therefore whadaya expect? We're flawed, what we oft do is flawed....

Re Muffins point about being 'attractive' sadly that's bang on true....but then again how does that differ from mainstream cultural values in anyway....? Take a look inside any woman's magazine....lol

Are we getting the point now....?

Driving tests are required because the roads are public property within which you must share with others.

The same isn't even remotely true of HRT, I reject the need for gatekeepers full stop.

Their (psychiatrists) job is to essentially to "check" people to see if they are of sound mind within their decision to transition and take medication/pills that have a big impact on their lives?

I'd say that much makes sense but anything in relation to tacked on rules to the RLT starts to blur lines. I'd say it's important to be able to mingle with society and to be ready for that, especially those that come out without making any simple changes like hair etc, it's a longer road.
There are realistic gender expectations but some that are questionable me thinks. If one is not as feminine as the average female then so what, there are plenty of natal women that make people go hhmmm... that is normal and accepted. (In the case of the OP from her avatar and posts she presents to me more female than anything else so it does seem strange to be questioned).

It makes me think of the gender spectrum and how if one falls just over the line then they may get the hairy eyeball treatment yet their decision to transition is still legit. I feel that I am one of them!
Not that I would ever question the gender role binary system and all it's faults, oh me never
Well ok maybe if someone tried to use it against me then ...sure.

With respect Muffin, that is ideally the psychiatrists job. In practice, most seem to take on an entirely different role of moral guardians.

glendagladwitch #29 makes the excellent point that mental illness isn't particularly difficult to spot.

Personally, I believe that encouraging the issue to be a medical one is the wrong approach. As adults, this should be a matter of self expression and basic human right.

Quote from: spacial on September 10, 2010, 04:52:43 AM
With respect Muffin, that is ideally the psychiatrists job. In practice, most seem to take on an entirely different role of moral guardians.

glendagladwitch #29 makes the excellent point that mental illness isn't particularly difficult to spot.

Personally, I believe that encouraging the issue to be a medical one is the wrong approach. As adults, this should be a matter of self expression and basic human right.

I agree to some extent. However the problem arises because unless you can operate on yourself you are going to need the assistance of a reputable surgeon, and quite rightly these guys want be sure that in cutting you up and removing healthy tissue they are actually going to improve your life and not merely maim you.

Thus some degree of assessment is inevitable. Where I have a problem is the degree to which this is often inflexible and rule driven and indeed uses a one size fits all approach when, as Glenda has so eloquently pointed out, we all come in different shapes and sizes.

moving on however I would also prefer to see a little less elitism. I am sure I am not alone in finding the continued reference in this thread to mangina's somewhat disturbing! Not because I have any leanings in that direction but because I think that as long as someone isn't actually harming others then it's actually up them how they live their lives.

If we are happy with ourselves then we shouldn't need to bolster our own ego by pejorative labeling of someone else who may be slightly different. If someone continually does, then to me that could become a case of Shakespeare's "methinks she doth protest too much." In other words if you aren't careful an attack of that sort could be interpreted as revealing more about your own insecurities than it does about your target.

Quote from: spacial on September 09, 2010, 05:28:33 AM
I'm sure most of the others here would never be as arrogant as I was to dare to question or even suggest that a Dr could do any wrong.

Be carefull about that girl! I had the impudence to write a well-referenced letter to the Department of Health Care documenting how the GIC violated national and international threatment standards and how they had in several cases provided misleading or incorrect information to politicians and regulatory bodies.
Less than a month later I was miscredited in my files. Curiously nobody wants to take responsibility for that note or explain the reason. This reminds me of something I read by Erwin Goffman once about patients not being allowed to complain over psychiatrists. I'm gonna complain about that later, ha ha!


Tippe

Agree with you Tippe about the dangers of complaining.

Sadly, that ship has long since sailed. My reward is considerably more than a single letter. I have a long list that makes the average prison seem more like a convent. Fortunately, I am on a number of neighbourhood groups associated with the local police force.

However, I wasn't recommending that anyone complain, certanly not about Drs. Rather that they should try to be aware of what they are dealing with. This ain't TV.

But thanks for the thought.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

MTF Transexual who is an FTM Fulltime Crossdresser?  I am dizzy.