My mention of the work I do WAS not intended to say that it is MORE IMPORTANT then any other type of work, but I am use to these types of statements being made now days. It was meant to illustrate the actual output of energy in a given situation during the course of a work shift and what energy may or may not be left over for other jobs at the end of that work shift. I had also hoped to convey that those working for minimum or near minimum wages would have to work 24 hours a day in many cases to achieve SRS within a reasonable frame work of time. And while not directed exactly at you Steph you were one of the intended audiences.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: brina on December 02, 2006, 12:43:51 PM
I find it revolting that other T's would be of the opinion that I should not be allowed to do this...

Nobody has said that in this thread at all. In fact, I don't recall this thread being solely about you... but I guess now it is, which to me is an indication of this narcissistic thread's decline. You invited comments and hysterically raised the emotional temperature when others didn't agree with your definition and to me, the part about making enemies is really unnecessary because it's not that important.

Quoteby the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker.

I don't think anyone actually said that. I think people should be able to change all their markers when they decide to present as their true gender on a permanent basis.  It doesn't really matter if one is pre-Op or post-Op if you are what you are on the inside, right?

Why are you so upset, Brina? Talk to us, please, what's going on with you? 

Why does it matter so much what somebody's idea of what defines pre-Op and post-Op is? It doesn't change you, you are you, after all, no matter what anybody says.

I don't know what's making you so defensive, but please, we are all here to help you out, not hinder you or ridicule you.   

Good night, ladies! I hope you are all doing better. 

Quote from: DawnL on December 01, 2006, 07:58:20 PM

Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 09:51:00 AM
For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a
pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name
a few and it disgusts me.         Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!

Rather than firing off an ad hominem attack against your ongoing and increasingly shrill posts--no doubt drawing
the ire of the moderators in the process--I instead am going to hit the IGNORE button and make you go away.

Dawn

Oh god I feel like such a ditz, I was wondering how to do that.
Posted on: December 02, 2006, 07:15:07 PM

---

Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 09:51:00 AM

 For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.

 For the nincumpoop who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.

 Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!

Good bye
 Brina

I wished somebody was still here, unfortunatley she is not longer with us. But I will quote somthing she used to say,"If you want SRS bad enough you WILL figure out a way to get it". A person who is truly transsexual will sacrifice everything and anything to get SRS. It's nobodies fault but the person themself if they cannot afford it and pissing and moaning about it and blaming others online is sad.

Post Op to me is having major surgery to change your gender, in MTF its vaginoplasty, in FTM I'd say it was top and hystorectomy. So I guess I am Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric and I disgust you. Wich is fine with me. Somebody that sounds like a whiny crybaby that wants to blame everybody for their problems and lack of money disgusts me as well. If I want something bad enough I will work 3 and 4 jobs, overtime or figure out a way to make more money. Until a person start working towards their goal, they are either making excuses or don't want it bad enough. 

Oh this is a lovely post you ladies are not near potato mashers or vegetable peelers i hope hehe... (umm this is meant to be humor so i am understood.. )
Brina,
You remind me very much of someone i know very very well, someone i knew quite a few short years back.  ME!  I may be wrong but you seem soo pent up with frustration and anger and rightfully soo all of us are or were or still are!
I cannot blame anyone for my plight , save my creator-and maybe he did not even have a direct hand in this?
I have tried to harness my frustration too many times i pinpinted it at poorly defined targets and at some of the very people who were trying to help me or be my friend! 
I'm playing up to the crowd here but the following is true.. these conversations get heated and a lot of people blow fuses or misinterpret stuff, but i think everyone is trying to mean well, to understand?  to help?
I wished there was something i could do?  i asked in another post about you when i ended i asked why so much frustration being vented in here and what was going on?  Is there soemthing else going on that is an underlying issue?
I read through this and you seem very passionate to me i am passionate too, but i also (due to my poor typing-spelling mainly) reread my post before posting it to make sure its either funny or right or serious or whatever?  are you actually rererading what you are typing?  I dunno not being judgemental in the least just asking?
one of your posts about jobs..

Quotene last thing before closing, 'Work is NOT Work'. I wonder how many who have made that remark would last in working in -25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day and slip sliding thru a foot or so of snow or even better yet working 50,100 or 200 feet above the ground standing on nothing more then a frosty 1 3/4'' tube and relying on nothing more then a safety harness and life line to protect you from a sudden stop at ground level if you were to fall, not to mention that if one does fall rescue has a time window of 15 to 20 minutes to get you down before death is likely from having blood pool in your legs.

sorry to offend but i do this-and many other death defying acts for a hobby. climbing and moutaineering is something i do for relaxation and sport?
I chose my career or did it chose me either way i do not see the relevance to the work thing i think most have had their shares of bad times and jobs, and to the ones with a silver spoon in their mouth?  Well so be it?  an old friend said the world needs ditch diggers too!  It's not fair to hold anyone accountable for what they do for a living or what their $monetary$ keep is..
that has nothing to do with the discussion..I cannot afford a lot of things mind you i guess if i desired something bad enough i would find a way, have not a lot  of us found that grim path when we attempted our suicides?  So there's always a path...Brina you're a whole heckuva farther ahead of the game than a lot of transgenders... Having said that i  just do not understand why you seem soo upset?
Can you talk to us and address that?
Hugs your way!
Ricki

LOL I really am having a hard time making sense of some of the latest posts. Firstly I CAN afford MY Vaginoplasty and likely with Suporn if I chose. I have assets that I could sell in order to raise the money to do so. SO NO I am not whining about my own ability to proceed with my 'OP' and as far as anything else goes my transition is moving along rather smoothly. In fact all in all it has gone relatively smoothly.

You know I was going to yet again re-iterate my early points of what my concerns are but I have had it. It seems to me that what I am writting is being read by elitist or anyone other then transexual. Have a good life but please don't enter mine!

Good bye,
  Brina

The topic of this thread is called WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?.  Let's stay on topic please kitties.  Thank you.

tinkerbell

QuoteThe topic of this thread is called WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP

I think that may be where the problem started?
Well served.. I'm not in a great position to advise on this anyway.
will have fun viewing !
cheers
Ricki

I will try one last time to explain what it is I have tried to discern here.

1) The classice term of SRS would be indicative of anyone who has undergone 2 TWO operations within the same general time frame.
  a) M->F would entail an orchiectormy and then vagianoplasty
  b) F->M I think would entail hytorectomy and phalioplast

NOTE: When performed on Transexuals as transexual surgories then the orchiectomy or hystorectomy are the GENDER Changing operations as they are the operations that irreversably change the endocrine system of the individual concerned. The following plasties are in essence cosmetic in that they have no direct bearing on the physical body other then appearance! While I do agree that a mental change may occur in some individuals with having their bodies esthetically aligned as to how they see themselves and therefor there is an argument presentable about these operatons being solely cosmetic. They do not in essence modify the bodies hormonal systems.

Being that having ones gender changed in those locales where it is permissible to do so is reliant upon having a gender changing operation then it follows that one who has had either an orchiectomy or hystorectomy and has had those records changed is in the eyes of the law Post Operative in the strick sense of the term as well as medically. Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.

Considering that orchiectomies and hystorectomies are considerably less expensive then Classic SRS then it would seem logical to think that more and more T's might op out for this initial proceedure in order to perhaps have their birthrecords changed and afford them the same rights as the gender that they identify with. This in turn would without doubt make their respective RLE/RLT a much easier task to perform and NOT set them up for failures or at least set backs due to un-warranted discrimination.

I simply can not explain this any simpler then this. I am talking solely about transexuals here and not about anyone indentifing as being a transgender. Perhaps the Post-Op label needs to be devided into 2 catagories to eliminate confusion ie Post1 for the gender change and Post2 for the plasties. Perhaps little post versus big POST is more palatable?

In any respect for those who are of the opinion that CLASSIC SRS is the ONLY SEX changing operation then I stand by my earlier convictions as to how I see you.

Brina

Quote from: brina on December 03, 2006, 09:54:16 AM
Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.

True, and philosophically you make a good point. I even kinda agree in ways...

But I think The Law is often just worried about keeping male genitals out of "women's places." Simple as that. That old fear that anyone with male genitals is a threat, a potential sexual predator, regardless of claims to being TS and all.

Edit: I changed my genital reference terms

Why ask the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?" if you dont want to hear anybodies opinion, idea, or thoughts and then shove what you think is right down the throats of those that did have the courtesy to reply and discuss your topic?

What are you arguing? Sex change, gender change, or Post Op?

Quote from: Kate on December 03, 2006, 10:03:03 AM

Quote from: brina on December 03, 2006, 09:54:16 AM
Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.

True, and philosophically you make a good point. I even kinda agree in ways...

But I think The Law is often just worried about keeping penises out of "women's places." Simple as that. That old fear that anyone with a penis is a threat, a potential sexual predator, regardless of claims to being TS and all.

Thankfully in Canada and some jurisdictions in the US they are smart enough to realize that some one who has undergone this operation is anything BUT a sexual menace of any kind. The have also been gracious enough to allow us to police ourselves and show that we do in fact HAVE A SOCIAL consiousness by NOT putting ourselves or NATAL woman in such a potentially embarrasing situation.

Byee,
  Brina
Posted on: 2006-12-03, 12:16:01

---

Quote from: Lori on December 03, 2006, 10:08:21 AM
Why ask the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?" if you dont want to hear anybodies opinion, idea, or thoughts and then shove what you think is right down the throats of those that did have the courtesy to reply and discuss your topic?

What are you arguing? Sex change, gender change, or Post Op?

Sex and Gender (biologically speaking) are for all intents and purposes synonimous(sp) and both refer directly to Post Op. If you fail to understand what I am attempting to get at then there is simply nothing more I can do to clarrify my position.

Brina

Quote from: Kiera on December 03, 2006, 10:53:46 AM
I'd wash some 'lil ladies' mouth out with soap . . .

Wait, wait.. what'd I do? Too graphic? Or you think that *I* feel this way?

I wasn't saying *I* felt this way, I'm quoting the crude way I imagine "The Law" thinks, and how they word it to themselves.

Eeek... worried... my apologies, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone...

Kate

So, if having a operation that permanently makes you closer to female makes you post-op, then what about FFS.  What if you got FFS, could you call yourself a post-op even though no genital modifications was done?  I have heard that you can actually have gender markers changed just from that because it means you have taken surgical steps to becoming your chosen gender.  Please chew on that for a while before saying any gender changing surgery makes you post-op.

Quote from: Kiera on December 03, 2006, 12:14:04 PM
It's either that or My Humor must be older than I think!!!

Hmm, must be the humor.  I didn't get it either. Sorry.

Melissa

 I simply fail to under stand why it is so difficult to differentiate between a surgeory that is cosmetic and one that irreversably alters ones hormonal state. Before anyone freaks out SRS IF an orchie or hysto in performed with it is a gender/sex change operation;however, if either one have been performed previously then it is nothing more then a cosmetic proceedure. Well Sasha has told me I am simply beating my head against the wall and she is right.

Byee,
  Brina

Well, if hormones are the only criterion, then hysto for FtM's and orchi for MtF's is post op. Realistically, the other surgeries are not "just cosmetic". An FtM having chest surgery is a tad different from someone having a facelift. An MtF having FFS can't be compared to lipo on the thighs.

What I am not getting from this entire thread is why we're trying to define Post Op. Post Op would mean you've had one operation, doesn't matter what it is. I think what you're trying to get at is the concept of "done". Why are we debating different stages and goals of transitioning? It's divisive and invites a hierarchy of transsexuals. A better discussion would be "do you feel done? What more would you do if you had the resources?"

my .02

Dennis

  Again the concept of post deals with when one has undergone a surgeory to alter permanently their bodies and remove the birth gender SEX Hormone whether it be Estrogen/Progesterone or Testosterone and they then take the hormone of their respective identified gender. Surgeories dealing with appearance don't meet that criteria and therefor the cosmetic designation. While surgeories that affect appearance may be needed for passability as the desired gender, they do not alter the underlying birth gender. Its only when gender changing surgeory has been performed that someone might be able to have their birthrecords changed and then be finally protected under the human rights codes of thier respective jurisdictions ie Female or Male.

  I think some of the backlash here has to deal with transgender issues. Should a crossdresser or ->-bleeped-<- be allowed to use the facilaties associated with their presentation. At one time I was inclined to think yes but have changed my opinion now to NO I think they should NOT be allowed. In short anyone identifing as thier birth gender has no business in using the facilaties of the opposite gender.

  As I mentioned earlier in this thread the concept of post-op while not broken per se  needs to be updated for todays experiences. The very idea of forcing a transexual who has undergone a gender changing surgeory to spend a year or two in RLE/RLT presenting as their identified gender and maintaining their birth gender marker is ludicrous at best.

  What is Done, I suppose that depends on the individual and what fiscal resources they have available to them.
For myself that will entail vagianoplasy. For a F->M I would think after top surgeory and a hystorectomy, simply as phalioplasty is still somewhat in its infancy and not perfected any where near to the degree that vagianoplasty has been for M->F's.

Byee,
  Brina

QuoteThe very idea of forcing a transexual who has undergone a gender changing surgeory to spend a year or two in RLE/RLT presenting as their identified gender and maintaining their birth gender marker is ludicrous at best.

I thought that you have to do the RLT before they let you get the surgery?  Unless of course it's different where you live, I suppose.

Okay, so let me clarify what I thought this thread was about.  I was under the impression that you were asking what we thought of when someone refers to themselves as a Post-Op Transexual.  To me it has the connotation that everything is "done" at that point, but I certainly would never call a Pre-Op Transexual woman or man anything other than the gender they wish to be referred to, to the extent of my considering them to be a member of that gender.  To me, the surgery really has nothing to do with my perception of gender.  My fiancee is a pre-OP (really a pre-transitioning) Transexual woman who is usually dressed as a man, but even still use female pronouns at times when I'm speaking to her or about her. 

Legally, my point of view is meaningless. Legally, anyone's opinion on this is meaningless unless that opinion actually changes the law. If I had it my way, I would allow people to change their records the very second that they make a commitment to living as their gender.  No amount of surgeries or hormones is going to change someone's gender, it will only change the physical appearance. Likewise, if my ovaries are removed due to cystic growth, I would never consider myself less female because of it and I would hope that nobody else would, either.

QuoteIts only when gender changing surgeory has been performed that someone might be able to have their birthrecords changed and then be finally protected under the human rights codes of thier respective jurisdictions ie Female or Male.

If this is true, then why are we debating this?  I completely disagree that one must has "gender changing surgery" in order to have their records switched.  Having one's body altered to match the gender of the mind is completely understandable, but I don't think that it should be necessary for having the title of male or female. Then again, I would find it odd for a transexual to choose not to have their body altered if they can afford it. And my opinion matters how? It's what the law defines as a "gender altering" surgery that will legally allow for a birthrecord to be changed. What I or anyone else thinks about it won't change how it is, so what's the point?

While RLE/RLT is a pre-requisite for Classic SRS it not for either an orchiectomy nor hystorectomy. I do imagine though that a letter from a qualified Pychiatrist or Clinical Pychologist would be required. For myself I just happened to be  living in my identified gender for over a year, before I got my letter for the orchiectomy and I required a second letter from my pychiatrist to proceed with setting up my Vagianoplasty. Again I am speaking about surgeories that are performed as 'Transexual Surgeories' and NOT due to other underlying conditions!

I doubt seriously if you would find to many if any transexuals either male/female what would say that they have not been significantly altered by hormones and I'm not talking about appearances here. Testosterone and Estrogen play a very real and significant part in how people percieve the world about them.

Byee,
  Brina

As I've said before, I think an orchi is a very significant and functionally changing operation, but I still feel the label "post-op" is reserved for post-GRS.  It's more like semi-post-op.

Melissa