Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
That's a good one, I like it

As for the definition of what "normal" is, I too think that's highly opinionated and thus not worthy of a meaningful discussion.

You're talking about living a normal life and I'm sure it's possible, why wouldn't it be? But let me stress it again, the essay is not about that, even the author writes she's managed to live a life like that. What the essay is about is the following:

We've all been through that role playing you mentioned. But not we're not made of the same material; we're different on how we can cope with our past, this role playing. To say an example, I was probably more sensitive than the usual and as a result I became a kind of an artist-like person. However, I strongly doubt that I'd be the very same person if I happened to not born with GID. But I can live a normal life just as anybody else can (like, I want to raise children) but I won't ever be a normal person and I accept that. Whatever that means

g

"Can you escape the information about your own formation"

Yes you can.  Can you say for certain that if you were born GG and FORCED to live as man, you would not have turned out the same way when you stopped being one?   You cant.  So that statement is false.  No matter how you were born you are both subject to nature and nurture, both of those effect you.   The only way i can see people having trouble with this is if you really believe you werent what you are now to start off with.  I was born a woman, for a time i was forced to live as a man, didnt work out so well, so i went back to being a woman.   Thats it.  I can escape it just fine, like i mentioned before the only thing that reminds me of my time in the brainwashing cult is what is between my legs, after that is gone, nothing will remind me.  I wont forget my past though but it will be as if i was always a woman living that way.   I already tell stories to my friends and they just take it as experiences that I had, they never assume they were the experiences of a guy, and even i dont see them that way.   

Maybe i am not normal, maybe delusional, but i would rather my life be that i was born a woman and simply forced to live like a man out of ignorance of the people around me, rather then i was born some kind of freak that can never escape the trappings of what made me, telling me that no matter what i do i cant escape it.  Bah, if you want to you can if you truly believe you were what you are now from the very start, for me a woman simply born with a disorder that made everyone around me treat me differently because they didnt understand what i had, but after therapy all of it has been fixed except for one thing. 

I am normal - somewhere within the normal range - but I am neither normative nor the norm.

- Kate

Quote from: Tippe on September 15, 2010, 04:40:40 PM
Well put! I agree that suffering from a condition, yet coping well, makes you a stronger person. On the other hand I think trying to hide the condition completely in the quest for normalcy makes your past somehow become a bit odd in others eyes, because you have different life experiences whether you acknowledge it or not.


Tippe

heh not so, i dont hide my past, in fact i tell stories from it to my co-workers all the time, they just assume its from the point of view of a woman because that is what they assume I am, at least i think they do from the comments they make dealing with things only GG women deal with.   It catches me off guard sometimes, like i was really craving Chinese food and one of the girls said, oh is it that time of the month for you?  I just replied... no i dont think thats it, and she took it as a normal answer.   Anyway, i talk about getting into fights, and also other things in my life, not once anyone has seen my memories as anything out of the ordinary, even on dates I had been on with guys that didnt know i was TS.  I kinda of think a lot of them think it makes me an interesting person.. in a way...

I've never been "normal" in almost any aspect of my life........but I'm still a woman.
I fail to see how being born transsexed or intersexed relates to "normal" as at this stage of my life I am far from certain I've ever met anyone who actually feels "normal".themselves.

Quote from: transheretic on September 16, 2010, 06:51:33 AM
I've never been "normal" in almost any aspect of my life........but I'm still a woman.
I fail to see how being born transsexed or intersexed relates to "normal" as at this stage of my life I am far from certain I've ever met anyone who actually feels "normal".themselves.

Normal is what is within accepted cultural norms.  If it shocks someone, its not an expected norm for that person, if it shocks a large group then its not an accepted cultural norm.  Telling someone who doesnt know your TS you are TS would give them a shock and sometimes change the way they treat you, since its not a typical thing people are used to experiencing.   While being TS is accepted the view of what a transsexual is, is not stabilized within US culture, people just assume when you say TS you mean CD/TV/TS/DQ/etc... or a mix of all.  When we are lumped in with all these other groups it makes it hard to make a case that we are different.   There is a difference between no one being the same, and being normal, they are two different things.  For example I like corn chips, my fiance doesnt, both of us are different, but both are still normal.  Normal is basically within the tolerance levels of society, currently being TS is very close to the edge of those tolerance levels.  For example something really tolerant would be eating meat here, something not so tolerant but accepted vegetarianism (people make fun of them too you know, but it is still accepted). 

All i am trying to point out is you maybe normal and just misunderstand what normal is.   So when you say your not normal what does that mean? you live in a tree house? you ride helicopters to work? you have an arm growing out your stomach?  Whatever it is its probably within the norm, but you are still a unique individual.

Quote from: Izumi on September 16, 2010, 11:37:38 AM

All i am trying to point out is you maybe normal and just misunderstand what normal is.   So when you say your not normal what does that mean? you live in a tree house? you ride helicopters to work? you have an arm growing out your stomach?  Whatever it is its probably within the norm, but you are still a unique individual.

Ok, you owe me a cup of coffee.....I was sipping it when I read this.  Clearly you don't know who I am.
I was born a tetra-gametic chimera or a "true" hermaphrodite and was surgically altered at birth.  I am a sixty something lifelong Pagan.  I'm bisexual, I revived the ancient Cybeline Goddess tradition and I founded and manage a Pagan womans convent and spirituality centre, let me know where you find "normal in that.  I also lived in India as a teenager, was a hippy activist in the sixties, womens right activist in the seventies to today, a Pagan rights activist in the seventies....again, where's the normal there?  And I have zero problem with not being normal

Normal is overrated.  But I am still a woman.

"I also lived in India as a teenager, was a hippy activist in the sixties"

Everything after you said that, made you normal.  ^_^

then you have a weird sense of normal......
I don't live in a tree house, I live in a 130+ year old haunted Catskill resort Inn with a bunch of cats.....  not normal  In fact the very definition of not normal since I am living the joke I made as a child that I wanted to grow up to be the weird old lady in the strange old house with all the cats.
I ride around the Hamlet on an electric scooter.... not normal, not a helicopter, but not normal
I have two separate genetic codes in various systems of my body... not an arm growing out of my belly, but again, not normal as I am literally twins in a single body.

What I cannot figure out is why you seem invested in making me normal when I love being eccentric as a pet raccoon  And the point of my original comment is almost everyone I ever met did not feel they were normal either even if most would consider them so.  I'm also one of those HBSers (on alternate Tuesdays anyway) so even figured against the norm here, I'm not.  My intelligence is in the upper 2%, so once again, not normal there either.

Screw normal, I rejected it as a child and I still do.  I live life on my own terms  I have no desire to be normal.

Quote from: transheretic on September 16, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
then you have a weird sense of normal......
I don't live in a tree house, I live in a 130+ year old haunted Catskill resort Inn with a bunch of cats.....  not normal  In fact the very definition of not normal since I am living the joke I made as a child that I wanted to grow up to be the weird old lady in the strange old house with all the cats.
I ride around the Hamlet on an electric scooter.... not normal, not a helicopter, but not normal
I have two separate genetic codes in various systems of my body... not an arm growing out of my belly, but again, not normal as I am literally twins in a single body.

What I cannot figure out is why you seem invested in making me normal when I love being eccentric as a pet raccoon  And the point of my original comment is almost everyone I ever met did not feel they were normal either even if most would consider them so.  I'm also one of those HBSers (on alternate Tuesdays anyway) so even figured against the norm here, I'm not.  My intelligence is in the upper 2%, so once again, not normal there either.

Screw normal, I rejected it as a child and I still do.  I live life on my own terms  I have no desire to be normal.

We previous statement was a sad at humor, i apologize.  Of course none of those things are normal.  You have convinced me, but for some reason... and i dont know why none of it seems out of the ordinary too.  Maybe i just know a lot of interesting people.

I have gotten used to not fitting in.  I was a girl who appeared to be a boy, but there were many other ways that I didn't fit in.  So when I began appearing to the world as a woman, I had a strong built-up desire to try to fit in.  My background is odd, but no more so than many people I know even though they aren't transgendered.  I love that I am accepted as unusual but normal – part of the vast swath of humanity that is considered "normal" – whatever that means.

Perhaps I want to be normal because I was never able to be that way before.  That doesn't mean that I will do stereotypical things, it just means that I am now comfortable as part of a group of people where I am accepted as normal but am still myself.

- Kate

I found the article to be very good, as it made me think and at the same time, underlined my conviction. (I'm getting old, I like articles which support my opinions.)

As a transguy, I can never be "norrmal" like other guys. Who of them had a period, were addressed as females (or the paternts corrected people on the streets that you were a girl not a boy... argh!), got forced into wearing dresses on formal occasions, have to live their life as a dickless man, grew obnoxious tits at puberty etc. ? But I don't care about being normal anyway, I'm abnormal in many other ways as well... And I don't ever want to fool myself into thinking I am a normal guy. I'm not. Growing up as a female is not normal for a guy, nor is a transsexual physical transition, nor is the fact that you have mostly female genitalia. Point. Plus undress yourself, it just looks freaky, at least in my case.

I see a hairy guy with tits and a pussy when I'm naked and look into the mirror, and wonder who might be attracted to that. It's not really ugly, but freaky. Well, found a bi guy for an affair, he does not mind my physical mix-max at all. Let's be clear here, somehow, we are freaks. And/or we look like freaks, during transition. And I will look freaky for the rest of my life as I won't make bottom surgery. I'd love to have a penis, but the solutions they have now don't work for me.

But freaks are cool as soon as they get this ->-bleeped-<- you-attitude concerning social expectations and are just themselves.

Once you get over the "normalization" pressure and other people don't expect you to be normal any more, you lose the status of a "normal person", which hurts. But at the same time, you win a lot, you can just be yourself. Yay!

Fencesitter, you make it sound so harsh. But then again, the naked thruth often is. Being normal shouldn't be a goal in life, being yourself should be.
In my case people in high school rumored I must be autistic because I simply did not have the desire to fit in with others by wearing certain clothes or by pretending to like certain things. I simply do not like to force myself into things I don't like in order to be popular. Even my father made me watch sports so I could talk about it with others. At the same time I was not allowed to view channels as the discovery channel or read magazines as the national geographic because it was all "stuck up crap".

A freak... I needed to consult my dictionary for the exact meaning: "A person of unusual appearance". I hate the word, but the meaning is not all that bad after all. Isn't it strange that words can have such a negative appearance while their meaning isn't negative at all? I think it is only good to reflect on your differences to what is regarded normal, but don't fall for the trap to regard this as negative. Don't torture yourself with thoughts of what will never be. We can never fully change what we are and we have to accept this or else it will consume us.
I think that you can divide "freaks" in 2 categories: Those who want to be different (to be cool) and those who want to be themselves. I am under the impression that you belong to the latter because else your gender would be a choice, which it is clearly not.
My experience is that when you flip the finger to society, it will return the favor twice as hard. This is in line with what Tippe wrote as a comment on the article "Nature loves variety, unfortunately society does not"

Hey, you're still arguing about what's normal and what's not! Haven't I told you not to! Just joking...

Now, to the point.

Quote
Can you say for certain that if you were born GG and FORCED to live as man, you would not have turned out the same way when you stopped being one?

Of course I can't say anything certain about something that hasn't happened. But, consider 25 years of this forced living which lasted during the years when a person's personality is mostly formed, how could you ever forget it? The answer is already in your post: delusion. I have no problem if someone chooses that, I can understand the whys. But after all these years of role playing I only want one thing, and that is to live in truth. And the truth is, for me, that I've had a very messed up life before and I just gotta live with that memory. It's not hard -in fact, it's easy if you give up on always acting according to society's expectations- living in delusionment would be probably harder, for me at least. And that's what the essay is about: being a woman is not about playing the woman to others but to feel and think like a woman even when you're all alone, when nobody surrounds you. It's up to the individual how much she cares about society; you care more, I care less. Because I know they never cared about me so they actually get what they deserve in return

Quote
rather then i was born some kind of freak that can never escape the trappings of what made me, telling me that no matter what i do i cant escape it

I don't consider myself a freak, never did and I really hope you don't, too And I hope Fencesitter is just joking about that, and really talking about how others may see us. That is, the problem is with society, again, because in their eyes we might be just that and no more. So if you're striving for the acceptance of them, then you'd better not disclose your past. In my eyes, I'm just a woman with a birth defect and I'm not transitioning to fit well into society but only to correct that defect.

I think being "not normal" is to tell society that they can give up on their expectations when it comes to a certain someone Now this may sound the usual antisocial behaviour but it really isn't that serious as I don't want to specifically shock people. I still have a job and intend to keep it, still have a flat where I can sleep at night and have something to eat every day. So I'm just kind of balancing on the edge, not be accepted by too many people but don't want to be outcasted from there either. Artists live this kind of life all the time and I'm more-or-less one of them.

Now after all this, allow me to go a bit off because I got bored of talking about myself all the time I think I've already written here that someday I'd like to adopt and raise children. But imagine, as I've never been a little girl neither physically nor socially (only mentally, but who else cares about that?), how will I try to explain to her the bits and odds, the little things about being a girl? I'll have to make up some fake memories before her questions start to surface. I have no intention to do this for myself but for her sake, I'll do it. And someday, when she's old enough, she'll learn the truth and she'll understand that these were only to keep her little soul intact, to grow up as normal as possible, a chance which wasn't given to me. And she'll forgive me for those lies and then we'll have some big laughs together at the past. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah I know, I'm getting old and sentimental

g

Quote from: ggina on September 17, 2010, 10:55:49 AM
Hey, you're still arguing about what's normal and what's not! Haven't I told you not to! Just joking...

Now, to the point.

Of course I can't say anything certain about something that hasn't happened. But, consider 25 years of this forced living which lasted during the years when a person's personality is mostly formed, how could you ever forget it? The answer is already in your post: delusion. I have no problem if someone chooses that, I can understand the whys. But after all these years of role playing I only want one thing, and that is to live in truth. And the truth is, for me, that I've had a very messed up life before and I just gotta live with that memory. It's not hard -in fact, it's easy if you give up on always acting according to society's expectations- living in delusionment would be probably harder, for me at least. And that's what the essay is about: being a woman is not about playing the woman to others but to feel and think like a woman even when you're all alone, when nobody surrounds you. It's up to the individual how much she cares about society; you care more, I care less. Because I know they never cared about me so they actually get what they deserve in return

I don't consider myself a freak, never did and I really hope you don't, too And I hope Fencesitter is just joking about that, and really talking about how others may see us. That is, the problem is with society, again, because in their eyes we might be just that and no more. So if you're striving for the acceptance of them, then you'd better not disclose your past. In my eyes, I'm just a woman with a birth defect and I'm not transitioning to fit well into society but only to correct that defect.

I think being "not normal" is to tell society that they can give up on their expectations when it comes to a certain someone Now this may sound the usual antisocial behaviour but it really isn't that serious as I don't want to specifically shock people. I still have a job and intend to keep it, still have a flat where I can sleep at night and have something to eat every day. So I'm just kind of balancing on the edge, not be accepted by too many people but don't want to be outcasted from there either. Artists live this kind of life all the time and I'm more-or-less one of them.

Now after all this, allow me to go a bit off because I got bored of talking about myself all the time I think I've already written here that someday I'd like to adopt and raise children. But imagine, as I've never been a little girl neither physically nor socially (only mentally, but who else cares about that?), how will I try to explain to her the bits and odds, the little things about being a girl? I'll have to make up some fake memories before her questions start to surface. I have no intention to do this for myself but for her sake, I'll do it. And someday, when she's old enough, she'll learn the truth and she'll understand that these were only to keep her little soul intact, to grow up as normal as possible, a chance which wasn't given to me. And she'll forgive me for those lies and then we'll have some big laughs together at the past. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah I know, I'm getting old and sentimental

g

You do know that even parents that DO go through those experiences dont raise children well.  Something can be said for experience but the experience might not always have been a good one or a learned one.   I am sure without living life as a little girl you can tell your daughter the difference between right and wrong in her life, a parent isn't a friend, a parent is someone who nurtures and guides a child into being a functioning adult, i have no doubt you can do that without ever having lived as a little girl, its pretty much common sense stuff, otherwise how would single mom's still be able to raise sons.  They have an issue, you tell them how they should handle it or you handle it and go on.   I too will adopt, i would like a son and daughter, but as someone who lived both sides i can give my daughter a better understanding of what its like dealing with men, and my insight on how a man should be and how he should treat women.  You still have a lot of experience that is invaluable to a child that most parents never have, dont sell yourself short.

As for being normal... I can close my eyes and see the house, my husband, 2 kids, a dog, BBQ in the yard, neighbors over for picnic parties, casseroles, etc... I know life isnt like an 1950s family show, I know when i have kids they will be screaming all night and throw tantrums, break things, get into trouble,  etc...  I am getting some practice with big kids dealing with my fiance which will prove invaluable later,  but what is important to me is when It is time for me to leave this world, i have the children that i raised beside me with their own families, and the joy I will feel when they come to say goodbye to their mom, and that i was important in their lives.  I am not fighting to be normal as much as i am fighting to have the meaning i have always wanted to my life, being a part of society will just make it easier for my kids and my family, so its just a step, if i didnt have to take it i wouldnt do it. 

About the "freak" word.

We have it as a foreign werd in German, but it seems to be used somewhat differently here than in English, and I meant it in the German sense.
We do not use "freak" to describe monstrosities, seriously deformed fetuses or very disfigured persons.
It's rather used for very excentric looking people, like, e. g. the heavily body modified and tattoed celebrities Enigma and Lizard man, more for excentric looks deliberately caused than for looks which happened by nature (albinism etc.).
We also use it for people who are a lot into a certain topic or hobby and know very much about it,
or who are tremendously good or talented at something.
And for people who lead very excentric lives.
Freak can have a positive or negative meaning here, sometimes even both at the same time.

I used "freak" here in the context of excentric looking and (in terms of cross-gendered childhood and youth) excentric lives. And indeed, in this sense, that's how I see myself. Then again, I think physical transition in a certain sense is like an extreme, deliberate body modification though it's not exactly the same thing and has other motivations behind it. Plus I kind of like the body modifications of lizard man etc. So it's fine for me to consider myself as something a bit similar to heavily body modified people - a freak in the German meaning of the word.

Thanks for the explanation, Fencesitter. So for the germans even a genius is a freak as I understand. Though if I were a genius I guess I wouldn't care what adjective people use on me but it's good to know anyway.

Speaking of bodymods and TSism, it just popped into my mind, a guy called yttrx. A few years ago I was educating myself, looking for various transition experiences and bumped into his online diary. He used to publish regularly on bmezine, writing about general bodymod stuff and then he surprisingly came out one day to the readers as an mtf ts and announced he already started therapy because he was diagnosed as one by some docs as well. He went with it for two years and then got out of it, saying he was missing his "old" self. Of course this can happen with anyone, but the background he came from makes this a bit more interesting. I don't know what his true feelings were but what if he only wanted to do some extreme form of modding? Not that he didn't have the right to do so, it just got me thinking about people's motivations. Unfortunately this well-written diary is no longer on the net, he must've carefully wiped out every single trace even from the search engines.

Izumi, I know that growing up as a girl isn't what makes a good mother, I agree that we can all raise children by using only common sense. I was just trying to say that since I've never really been a boy, not to say a girl I expect to run into some difficulties when it comes to cisgender issues. Assuming my children will be cisgender anyway

oh and btw, it's good to see so many kinds of people here: reading about Izumi's garden with bbq and then the bodymods of Fencesitter, it just makes for so much contrast, but in a good colorful way But now I'm stuck somewhere in-between the two which makes me feel average, if only in a statistical way. I soo hate being there

g

Quote from: ggina on September 23, 2010, 04:07:52 PMOf course this can happen with anyone, but the background he came from makes this a bit more interesting. I don't know what his true feelings were but what if he only wanted to do some extreme form of modding? Not that he didn't have the right to do so, it just got me thinking about people's motivations.

I don't know about his case. But I know about at least 2 heavily body modified guys who also got breasts (one got implants, another one grew them with hormones). They're not transgendered in any way, just wanted to get this body modification. That's how body mod people tick - oh I want to change something about my body, I'll just do it, point. I was at one of the most famous body mod studios in Germany and the body mod/piercing guys there told me this and told me that if I wanted to get rid of the breasts for myself, that's fine, but if I only wanted to do it to meet society's expectations, they suggested me to think it over. And then they told me about these two guys and added - "You know, bodies don't need to be un-ambiguous". Altogether, I have the impression that body mod people don't necessarily get what body dysphoria is, but they absolutely agree that every adult should do with their body whatever they want based on informed consent, including transsexual body transformation and they think that's absolutely okay. Really a nice scene in terms of trans-acceptance.

I'm not heavily body modificated, but got me a few body mods at a time when I was fairly frustrated about the whole SoC procedure. At least, that was something about my body which I had control of and could do as I wanted. It was a great, re-empowering experience to be able to do something at least something about my body based on informed consent without all the hassle and psychiatric evaluation and feeling like a bug under a microscope. I will probably also get me a "ghetto meto" one day, that's the body mod version of the usual metoidioplasty. I prefer to feel like a normal client than like a deranged person having to get a psychiatrists' okay. The day there did me more good than half a year of therapy.

I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.

Which is a part of why I do the blog, I love seeing other people's take on my own thoughts and then having the ability to introspect and potentially change my ways of thinking.

And I wanted to say: at first Izumi I tended not to agree with you, but this:

Quote from: Izumi on September 17, 2010, 11:41:13 AM
I am not fighting to be normal as much as i am fighting to have the meaning i have always wanted to my life, being a part of society will just make it easier for my kids and my family, so its just a step, if i didnt have to take it i wouldnt do it.

you hit the nail straight on the head. Love it. Subsequently I would like to anomymously quote that somewhere if you wouldn't mind?

xo
~L~

Quote from: KittyClaw on September 25, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.

Thanks for following the link back to here and joining us in this conversation! Welcome to Susan's.

Z

Quote from: KittyClaw on September 25, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.

Which is a part of why I do the blog, I love seeing other people's take on my own thoughts and then having the ability to introspect and potentially change my ways of thinking.

And I wanted to say: at first Izumi I tended not to agree with you, but this:
you hit the nail straight on the head. Love it. Subsequently I would like to anomymously quote that somewhere if you wouldn't mind?

xo
~L~

Sure you can quote it, i wouldn't have written it in a public forum if i didnt want it for people to see.  ^_^